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Peter Green mod—not sure I got it right

El Gringo

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Apr 8, 2015
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In order for two sounds to cancel each other out they have to be of the same strength (this is why it is easier to get that Jimmy Page “chirpy” middle position with a hotter bridge pickup). So as soon as you lower the output of one pickup, the other becomes dominant and essentially overrides the other, and terminating the OOP effect. You may be left with some partial phase cancellation (odd frequencies) but never the full OOP sound. I would think the audio taper curve of the outs plays against any kind of tinkering too as it tends drop-off faster than a linear pot.

That’s my $0.02.

We were talking the other day and you mentioned how to get a slight OOP effect without doing the magnet flip and the rewire and I wanted to find out how you set your 2 pickup volumes while in the middle position ? I have always been fascinated by this sound .
 

mrbeasty

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Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
114
We were talking the other day and you mentioned how to get a slight OOP effect without doing the magnet flip and the rewire and I wanted to find out how you set your 2 pickup volumes while in the middle position ? I have always been fascinated by this sound .

Phase cancellation is the product of two equal strength signals nullified due to one being inversed with the other.
Technically, if two PAFs are on a guitar they should be perfectly in phase, yet since they are in different positions and transduce different parts of the strings they relays slightly different frequencies at different time. They are not 180 degrees out of phase, but enough that some frequencies cancel out.
So the key here is that the pickups need to be the same (same resonance, etc.) and of near equal output. If one overpowers the other, or if they are different, then they become complementary rather than cancelling. Of course you can use your volume knobs to lower the one that is too strong, but IMHO that is not ideal because one of your three positions is now always “compromised” vis-a-vis the other two ... IMHO.
So, the first thing I do is set the bridge for the sound I want out of it (it’s the main sound for me), with the pole screws set low. Then I set both pots wide open, switch to the middle position and try to find the most out of phase sound. Generally it means lowering the neck pickup until its output matches that of the bridge. I may fine-tune with the pole screws if the balance between strings in unsatisfying.

Now you can be OOP at full volume but, if you lower both pots equally, you can have the same sound at all other lower gain settings, which is really cool. This is usually a fine approach because doesn’t ruin the neck sound either as all you really do is match its volume to the bridge ...

My $0.02.
 
Last edited:

El Gringo

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Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,657
Phase cancellation is the product of two equal strength signals nullified due to one being inversed with the other.
Technically, if two PAFs are on a guitar they should be perfectly in phase, yet since they are in different positions and transduce different parts of the strings they relays slightly different frequencies at different time. They are not 180 degrees out of phase, but enough that some frequencies cancel out.
So the key here is that the pickups need to be the same (same resonance, etc.) and of near equal output. If one overpowers the other, or if they are different, then they become complementary rather than cancelling. Of course you can use your volume knobs to lower the one that is too strong, but IMHO that is not ideal because one of your three positions is now always “compromised” vis-a-vis the other two ... IMHO.
So, the first thing I do is set the bridge for the sound I want out of it (it’s the main sound for me), with the pole screws set low. Then I set both pots wide open, switch to the middle position and try to find the most out of phase sound. Generally it means lowering the neck pickup until its output matches that of the bridge. I may fine-tune with the pole screws if the balance between strings in unsatisfying.

Now you can be OOP at full volume but, if you lower both pots equally, you can have the same sound at all other lower gain settings, which is really cool. This is usually a fine approach because doesn’t ruin the neck sound either as all you really do is match its volume to the bridge ...

My $0.02.
Well alright . I will do this when I plug in and this sound like fun . I like your way of thinking and you have offered me some good suggestions which I appreciate and Thank You Kindly !
 

papabear16

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Aug 23, 2020
Messages
38
This is really cool stuff to read. I'm learning a lot!

I'm planning on replacing all the pots on the Les Paul soon, maybe this weekend. I already have them—nice CTS pots—and it will be interesting to test the ones in the guitar once I remove them.
 

mrbeasty

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Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
114
Well alright . I will do this when I plug in and this sound like fun . I like your way of thinking and you have offered me some good suggestions which I appreciate and Thank You Kindly !

Let us know what you think!? I am curious to see how this works out for you.
 

papabear16

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2020
Messages
38
Let us know what you think!? I am curious to see how this works out for you.

Me, too, and will do! From many descriptios above, it may have been working pretty much right, although I suspect the tone pot values and tapers might not be ideal. If I wrie it up with these new pots and the OOP is essentially the same, then I know I'm in the right spot (but also learned how to rewire a Les Paul, which is its own sort of fun, and so worth it to me). And if I get something differnt, well, cool!
 

somebodyelseuk

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Jun 10, 2020
Messages
454
Me, too, and will do! From many descriptios above, it may have been working pretty much right, although I suspect the tone pot values and tapers might not be ideal. If I wrie it up with these new pots and the OOP is essentially the same, then I know I'm in the right spot (but also learned how to rewire a Les Paul, which is its own sort of fun, and so worth it to me). And if I get something differnt, well, cool!
Just in case you're not aware, if those are imperial CTS pots, you'll need to ream the holes in the guitar to fit them. If they're metric, all good...
Lots of people open the holes, just forewarning you, so you can prepare a strategy. Might also find the knobs won't fit.
Good way to check is pull one of the knobs and compare the splines. It should be obvious, if they're different. If they're the same, you shouldn't need to do any woodworking.
 

El Gringo

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Apr 8, 2015
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Let us know what you think!? I am curious to see how this works out for you.

I most certainly will and look forward to reporting back my findings to you as I have a hunch that I will really like this technique ! Are you a guitar tech ? You most certainly have a lot of knowledge in our favorite pastime that you so graciously share which I appreciate very much !
 

papabear16

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2020
Messages
38
Just in case you're not aware, if those are imperial CTS pots, you'll need to ream the holes in the guitar to fit them. If they're metric, all good...
Lots of people open the holes, just forewarning you, so you can prepare a strategy. Might also find the knobs won't fit.
Good way to check is pull one of the knobs and compare the splines. It should be obvious, if they're different. If they're the same, you shouldn't need to do any woodworking.

Shoot, good to know! I'll check.
 

mrbeasty

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Dec 19, 2002
Messages
114
Are you a guitar tech ? You most certainly have a lot of knowledge in our favorite pastime that you so graciously share which I appreciate very much !

LOL - No, I am not a tech. I’m just a guy who has been into this for ~30 years and who services and modifies his own gear.
 

El Gringo

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Apr 8, 2015
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Let us know what you think!? I am curious to see how this works out for you.

Ok, I tried it on Saturday with the bridge pickup volume higher than the neck to match it and I did not hear it . Yesterday I tried with the neck pickup volume higher than the bridge pickup and the same results as I could not hear it . Usually when I use the middle position I will have the neck pickup volume louder than the bridge pickup volume . No OOP , or twngy sound or single coil like sound at all , which is okay . I think the only way to get into that territory would be with the proverbial magnet flip .
 

Mark Kane

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Jul 18, 2001
Messages
5,742
For the oop tones you slide the magnet out and holding the end just turn it over like turning a key. Then slide back in.
 
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