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2017 and later Gibson Historic models get True Historic appointments...

MacFangus

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Oct 10, 2016
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143
It looks like Gibson decided to drop the "True Historic" moniker, and gave the 2017 and later Historic models True Historic appointments. Three readily noticeable details are: 1. Pick guard sizing. 2. Rolled-edge binding. 3. Finished fret ends. 4. Slight color difference between the pickup rings and pick guard. There is a slight nib at the base of the fret, and that's it. Back in 2014, I was fortunate enough to play an authentic 1958 LP Standard. The first thing I noticed was the weight... It was light! The next thing I noticed was the thin neck binding, and its finished fret ends. I naturally assumed the frets and binding had been reworked, but the owner insisted it was stock. I didn't believe this, but I was in no position to argue the point.


FF to 2020: I purchased a 2018 R7 Wildwood, and immediately noticed the same style of binding and finished fret ends of the authentic '58. The fact that I can now play a .9 neck, without it feeling too large is wonderfully outrageous! I've owned several pre 2016 Historic LP's, and except for my R0, all of the necks felt uncomfortably large to me. Here's the thing... None of those Historic necks spec'd out any larger than my 2019 R7. The only explanation I can come up with, is that the thicker neck binding is what made those necks feel too large. My '68 LPC Historic was the largest feeling of them all.


Per my research: All 2017 and later Historic LP's have the same rolled-edge binding and frets as the authentic '58 LP Standard. Apparently, 2016 M2M models could be ordered this way, as I have seen two so far. According to a luthier (who use to work with Michael Tobias), Gibson switched to the thicker binding to cut-down on production costs. He said that clipping the fret ends, and razor trimming the binding is faster than finishing the fret ends. He said the thicker binding can be shaved, but it is a time consuming process, and has to be done right. I asked about shaving finished LP binding, but he advised against it.


Question: Has anyone tried this? Can sand paper be used, or does it need to be done with a razor blade? I have a 2000 LP Deluxe LTD that I'd like to have that same worn-in neck feel.
 
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PHILBERT

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Softer shoulders (sanded rolloff on the ends) has to do with that different feel. Depth may be the same, but with rolled shoulders it doesn't feel "fat".

I like thin necks, but several guitars I have purchased over the recent years have been 50's neck depth. It doesn't bother me at all now. But those older Les Paul "baseball bat" necks were a "no-go" for me. I'm glad they finally figured out the original profile(s). I do believe the tone and sustain are better with a bit more depth on the neck. It's just another added factor towards many. These newer Custom Shop Les Pauls are really resonant.

Phil
 

MacFangus

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Oct 10, 2016
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I'd love to have a P90 loaded Deluxe with true 50's spec binding and full frets. :)
 
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MacFangus

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Oct 10, 2016
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Doug and Pat show the stock binding and fret-dress of an authentic 1960 LP Standard aka "Jayne". As you can see, the 50's/60's era LP's were constructed with a thin rolled-edge binding, finished fret ends, and a slight nib at the base of the fret. What's odd, is that the 2019 60th Anniversary R0 shows binding/frets that are closer to that of a standard production (non-Historic) LP Standard.

The 2013 "Murphy Aged" R0 binding and frets are closer to the authentic 1960 "Jayne" model. Is razor trimming of the binding shoulders part of the Murphy aging process?

Both my 2016 M2M R7 and 2018 Wildwood R7 have the same rolled-edge binding and finished fret ends as the authentic 1960 model. I assumed that all post 2016 (definitley 2017) and later models were/are constructed in the same manner... Apparently, this is not the case.

Another thing... My 2018 Wildwood R7 shares the same color difference between the pickup rings and the pickguard; same as the authentic 1960 "Jayne" LP Standard. Do all post 2016 Historic models come this way, or just the Wildwood Historic models?

The binding, fret, and plastics comparisons begin at 11:23

 
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reviewcart

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Aug 4, 2020
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The main differences between the Standard and Studio are aesthetic.


The design philosophy (originally, anyway) of the Studio model was that it was intended for session musicians who wanted the tone and feel of a Les Paul for recording purposes, but didn't want to pay extra for fancy binding, inlays, gold hardware, burst finishes or fancy colors, flamed maple caps (all species of maple sound the same whether they are plain or flamed or quilted or birds-eye), etc.


There are LOTS of cheaper Les Pauls if you go used, especially if you go player-grade. (Just be be on the lookout for repaired headstocks; that's something to avoid if you can help it). Try Reverb.com or Craigslist. I have seen Gibson Les Pauls go for $500-600 depending on the year and condition and specific model. The Tribute models aren't even much more than that brand new. You don't need to spend anywhere near $2800 unless you want to.


I recommend buying used, anyway. The newest ones are overpriced and there's really no advantage to buying new over used. The technology doesn't change much from one year to the next, unlike say digital modeling amps.
 

ONEHERO

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Apr 5, 2016
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219
The main differences between the Standard and Studio are aesthetic.


The design philosophy (originally, anyway) of the Studio model was that it was intended for session musicians who wanted the tone and feel of a Les Paul for recording purposes, but didn't want to pay extra for fancy binding, inlays, gold hardware, burst finishes or fancy colors, flamed maple caps (all species of maple sound the same whether they are plain or flamed or quilted or birds-eye), etc.

I don’t think this is accurate?
 

PHILBERT

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Doug and Pat show the stock binding and fret-dress of an authentic 1960 LP Standard aka "Jayne". As you can see, the 50's/60's era LP's were constructed with a thin rolled-edge binding, finished fret ends, and a slight nib at the base of the fret. What's odd, is that the 2019 60th Anniversary R0 shows binding/frets that are closer to that of a standard production (non-Historic) LP Standard.

The 2013 "Murphy Aged" R0 binding and frets are closer to the authentic 1960 "Jayne" model. Is razor trimming of the binding shoulders part of the Murphy aging process?

Both my 2016 M2M R7 and 2018 Wildwood R7 have the same rolled-edge binding and finished fret ends as the authentic 1960 model. I assumed that all post 2016 (definitley 2017) and later models were/are constructed in the same manner... Apparently, this is not the case.

Another thing... My 2018 Wildwood R7 shares the same color difference between the pickup rings and the pickguard; same as the authentic 1960 "Jayne" LP Standard. Do all post 2016 Historic models come this way, or just the Wildwood Historic models?


Gibson changes the Historic formula all the time. Two steps forward, two steps back. My 2018 Murphy '59 has the thin rolled binding on the neck. Looks right. Frets are still too small though. And I believe they double-carved the top and took a bit of top binding off in the process. That is NOT accurate, and bothers me a bit. So does the amber lacquer over the thinner Gibson logo. Neither being correct. The headstock is also thicker than originals I have handled. Pickup covers are a bit better, but nowhere close to the originals. I love my ThroBak covers! That fixes that. Plastic color is now very good, for the most part, but don't even get me started on the oh-so-wrong translucent Kluson tuner tips. UGH!

So, 2019 and beyond fixed the Logo size some, but they had it better in the past. Then they ruined the Les Paul Model placement...and why did they switch to ugly yellow inlays? Reminds me of the "snot green" Classic inlays of the early 2000's. Not good. And what happened to color of the finish? For such a monumental anniversary year, a NOS original finish (like it really was 60 years ago) should have been offered with a non-faded back.

We had some good improvements with tone when hyde glue was implemented. That is the major reason I never "bonded" (pun intended) with the pre-hyde glue Historics. I never heard any Tightbond assembled Les Paul have the overtones and touch sensitivity (and sustain) these hyde glue Lesters have. Until they use hyde glue in USA models (if that ever happens), they will not sound like modern Historics. But Gibson Custom still plays games with details. They certainly could make everything 100% accurate, but they clearly don't want to. I believe they do this to keep people coming back for "the next improvement" spoon-feeding marketing ploy. I can fix most of my 2018 Murphy issues, like pickups and tuner tip issues. Maybe even the frets one day, but have to live with the binding and logo issues. What is really important is tone, flame and color. Sadly, the exquisite color will eventually fade if it is exposed to UV. I wish it wouldn't. I want it to stay the same forever.

On buying used...Nothing wrong with that as long as you can try it before you buy it. Les Paul guitars have personalities that are all unique. I went through a few over the years. I finally found "the one". To be honest, I think it was previously purchased and returned. I can't imagine why, except maybe pickup height was off some. Wall paint scuffs on the case, and the fact it was a 2018 model in mid 2019 with monster flame and a gorgeous color finish made me suspicious of that. I'm NOT complaining! After fine-tuning the pickups, it absolutely kills on tone. And not just a good bridge or neck tone either. All tones are fantastic!

On the subject of pickups...Long story short, I like single coil tones too, and played my Trad Pro II (converted to Trad Pro IV) almost as much as my Custom Historic, although that doesn't have the growl and overtones of my Historic. Put a set of 2-conductor 57 Classics in my Historic with the neck wired for single coil (inside the pickup), and really liked that sound enough to go for ThroBak SLE-101's with 4-conductor wiring and potted with aged covers. Now We're talkin'! Drew up a 20 tone circuit with coil splitting, coil selection (outer/inner), parallel and series plus treble bleed adjustments and EVERY TONE sounds great. I can have my cake and eat it too. It blows me away, and I NEVER get bored of the tones. Full flexibility on demand without changing guitars. The old guts are being preserved, but I doubt I will ever go back, or sell this guitar anytime soon. The Trad Pro IV is my "beater" tool-box LP. It works, but is resting more when I'm playing at home.

Phil
 

MacFangus

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Oct 10, 2016
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I don't know about the thicker headstock, but I don't have any problem with them adding additional mass to the headstock. I've actually grown to love the taller Jescar 50078 fret wire. I don't know how close it is to vintage, but it's some seriously fast wire! The authentic '58 Standard that I played had fret wire that was somewhere between 45100 and 50078. My '16 M2M R7 has the wider and slightly lower 45100 wire, which I also love. My 1978 LP Custom had flat frets, which a lot of people can't deal with. Except for the fret wire size, I assume all 2017 and later Historic models share the same 2015 "True Historic" specs? Every post 2017 Historic I've seen does.

New in 2015
• True Historic Plastics: Molecular level analysis delivers authentic vintage design. Based on lab analysis of
original Gibson plastics from the 1950's, the plastics on the True Historics including the Toggle Washer, Cream
Jackplate, Cream Pickguard, Pickup Mounting Rings and Toggle switch Cap, have been reformulated and reengineered to the original specifications of their vintage counterparts.

• True Historic Pickup Covers: Designed and engineered based on the originals. Engineered and
manufactured to capture every angle and nuance of original vintage pickup covers.
• Double-Carved Top: Authentic vintage dish profile. To recapture the top carve profile of original Vintage
Gibson Les Pauls, all True Historic Les Pauls are double carved by CNC, with the final shape of their dish carve
achieved through a hand-sanding process.

• Double-Carved Neck: Hand sanded for ideal playability and accurate profile. The necks on all True Historic
guitars are double-carved and then hand sanded to achieve that legendary vintage Gibson neck profile; the “beefy”,
solid feel of a beautifully hand-crafted Les Paul that rests in the player’s hand like no other guitar.

• "Broken" Peghead Edges, Smoother Edges: Vintage Looks and Feel. Hand-sanded peghead, neck and
body edges beautifully capture the look and feel of a true vintage Les Paul.
• Thinner Peghead Veneer: A testament to obsession with detail. While you can’t see it on a finished Les Paul,
original ‘50s guitars from Gibson had a thinner peghead veneer. In 2015, all True Historic guitars feature this thoughtful
detail in their mission to be as close to an original as possible.

• Thinner True Historic Wet-Sanded Finish: More work, more authentic. All True Historic guitars from Gibson
Custom are sprayed with thinner finishes, as were the original 1950’s guitars, and are now hand wet-sanded for
beauty and authenticity.

• Hide Glue Top Construction: A real vintage spec on the most "original" Reissue yet. Along with all hide glue
neck construction, Gibson Custom extends the use of hide glue to join the back and top of every True Historic guitar,
just as it was done in the 1950s.

• Rolled Fingerboard Binding: It’s all about feel and playability. One of the most magical aspects of an original
‘50s Les Paul is its smooth, natural feel. Gibson Custom hand-files the fingerboard binding on every True Historic Les
Paul to capture that feel precisely.


I agree on the pre-hide glue era Historic models. Other than the larger neck size, I didn't find them that much different from the standard production models. I purchased three '68 LP Custom models, and one 1960 reissue... I sold them all, and went back to playing my 2001 LP Standard. When I heard that Gibson switched to hide glue in 2013, I decided to give them another shot... Glad I did! :salude
 
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PHILBERT

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Nov 25, 2006
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Yes, the glue really did something. I never heard a new guitar ring out and feedback on its own overtones...without amp feedback (low volume). This thing does it. Insane!

Cheers! :salude

Phil
 

MacFangus

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Oct 10, 2016
Messages
143
I was playing my 2018 WW R7 this morning, and thought... Why couldn't Gibson have made this guitar 40 years ago? Had I know better in 1978, I would have saved my money toward a vintage LP. I had never played an authentic 50's LP, so how was I to know?

If I may... I absolutely LOVE the Jescar 50078 frets! I may send my 2016 M2M R7 to Gibson for a refret. The increased height and narrowed width is absolute perfection for me. Then again, the 2016 has a character that I'd hate to lose... Hmm? :hmm
 
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