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ES-335, Trap Tailpiece....vs. Stop Tailpiece, A Functional Analysis

bern1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
1,275
Cool thread. Though I obsess about this kind of stuff less now than in years past, I do still think about it, especially when I change strings on a guitar. For sure different tailpieces will produce different sounds from the guitar, which will also have a different feel. Nice to have these analyses laid out to make it easier for us non engineers to understand. As far as bending goes, I just bend however much it takes to get the job done. It seems the string gauge is the main determinant in how much effort it takes to bend. I have recently converted a couple of guitars with higher than low bridges to top wrap, mostly because I wanted to be kinder to the tuneamatic. I somehow worry about collapsing the bridge posts, though I have never had that happen. I don’t seem to notice too much difference in any area, whether it be bending or sound. Feel? My brain tells me it should feel stiffer due to the longer string length but if it is, it must be very very slight because I can’t really tell one way of the other.
 

EdmundGTP

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
41
Cool thread. Though I obsess about this kind of stuff less now than in years past, I do still think about it, especially when I change strings on a guitar. For sure different tailpieces will produce different sounds from the guitar, which will also have a different feel. Nice to have these analyses laid out to make it easier for us non engineers to understand. As far as bending goes, I just bend however much it takes to get the job done. It seems the string gauge is the main determinant in how much effort it takes to bend. I have recently converted a couple of guitars with higher than low bridges to top wrap, mostly because I wanted to be kinder to the tuneamatic. I somehow worry about collapsing the bridge posts, though I have never had that happen. I don’t seem to notice too much difference in any area, whether it be bending or sound. Feel? My brain tells me it should feel stiffer due to the longer string length but if it is, it must be very very slight because I can’t really tell one way of the other.

What you're feeling is exactly what I'd expect, and you're right on the money with respect to string gauge.

Disregarding the feel of the guitar itself (the wood/neck/etc.), string gauge will have a far greater affect on the "stiffness" (feel, bend effort, etc.) of the guitar setup in terms of play-ability, than any of the other factors discussed earlier in the thread. If you rolled all these factors into a pie chart, string gauge would easily make up 50-60% of the pie, perhaps even more.

The difference in total effective string length when going from normal stop tail use to a top wrap configuration is pretty minimal and borderline negligible. Perhaps 1/4 of an inch at the most.

Strictly based on the geometry, (and assuming no other changes to bridge height or string size, etc.) going from standard stop tail use to top wrap should never make the guitar feel stiffer, because the break angle over the saddles is almost always reduced, though sometimes by not very much at all (which is probably the case in your example).

It would have to be a fairly unique (not very plausible even) situation where converting to a top wrap somehow INCREASED the break angle. I'd also venture to say that if top-wrapping typically made the guitar feel more stiff to play, it wouldn't be a commonly seen practice.

Again, considering all that, what you've experienced is what I'd expect. A marginal (if barely perceptible change) when switching to top wrap. I'd deem suspect, any claims that top wrapping is some kind of panacea for AMAZING improvements in tone or playing feel. In my experience, it's simply not that dramatic of a change.

Also, break angle isn't the only thing to consider when looking at the string/bridge saddle interface for play-ability and tone improvements. A couple other things to examine: The quality, size and smoothness of your saddle slots. The saddle material itself. I'm sure there are others, but both of those directly affect the amount of friction in the contact point, and a poorly cut saddle slot can impart undesirable tonal characteristics into the string.

For me, top wrapping is more about my own personal preferences for setting up the guitar.
-I like having the tailpiece tightened down to the body, and use Faber Tone Lock studs on all of them. As an engineer I have an innate dis-like for loose fitting parts so it checks that box.
-With the tail piece locked down it makes string changes easier
-And I just like the way it looks.

-I like a shallower bridge break angle, and if that happens to bring a hint of "ease" in my bends, then that's just icing on the cake. I'll take all the help I can get when it comes to things that might improve my playing.
 

bern1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
1,275
I was under the impression all these years that having a really sharp break angle behind the bridge was directing all of the energy from the string vibration into the bridge posts, thus enhancing sustain. Now that I have begun top wrapping these guitars and thinking about it a little differently, (with the help of the above explanations and not hearing much difference), perhaps the way to think of it is that nothing can actually get lost and all of the energy is still being directed back to the top of the guitar, maybe not all in the same place at the same time, which results in about the same sound. (Maybe some "reverb" somewhere in the top.)
 

EdmundGTP

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
41
I was under the impression all these years that having a really sharp break angle behind the bridge was directing all of the energy from the string vibration into the bridge posts, thus enhancing sustain. Now that I have begun top wrapping these guitars and thinking about it a little differently, (with the help of the above explanations and not hearing much difference), perhaps the way to think of it is that nothing can actually get lost and all of the energy is still being directed back to the top of the guitar, maybe not all in the same place at the same time, which results in about the same sound. (Maybe some "reverb" somewhere in the top.)

So another thing to think about. Most Gibson's have the same fixed scale length. For the sake of this discussion we'll also assume a common string gauge. The vibration that you feel in the body of the guitar is a sympathetic reaction to the vibration of the strings. The "vibration" is the physical result of cyclic inertia from the string moving. Think about tying a heavy rope to a tree, pulling most of the slack out of it, and whipping it from side to side while pulling a bit of tension on it. What your body feels in reaction to the movement of the rope is that cyclic inertia. You just don't think of it as "vibration" in that example because the frequency is so low.

So back to the guitar. If the scale length is the same, and the string thicknesses are assumed to be constants, then that quantity of cyclic inertia (vibration energy) occurring between the nut and the bridge is the same when you initially strum. Regardless of break angle. Regardless of top wrap or not. And with the exception of what vibration energy might get lost to palm muting, air resistance and contact point friction (which equates to almost nothing by comparison), all of it is reacted by the rest of the guitar. There is string vibration that also occurs past the bridge (bridge to stop tail), and also past the nut (nut to tuner peg), but those string lengths are so short that any vibrations there go unnoticed. Side note: when you go back to considering a trapeze bridge, the length of suspended string grows to a point where some of the string vibrations past the bridge carry enough energy to present as additional overtones.

It's all about having good contact between the parts that are intended to transmit the vibration. First you need good contact between the strings and the nut. Between the strings and the saddles. Also between the string ends and the tuners, and the stop tail. Moving from there you need good solid contact through the entire bridge assembly, from saddle, to bridge body, to bridgepost/thumbwheel. You can trace each of the strings' contact points through various components that mate with one another until eventually you reach the wood of the body itself. Anywhere there is something loose, or if the contact surfaces don't remain solidly engaged, then you have a point where vibration energy can be lost. Same can be said for different materials. Softer materials are prone to act as dampers (turn vibration energy into heat rather than transmit it). i.e. nylon saddles transmit vibration a little different than brass resulting in different tonal characteristics. Or in an even more dramatic example; a guitar constructed of rubber (if you could even do such a thing) would not resonate at all. Different metals transmit vibration differently.

We pick and choose materials for various guitar pieces based on what vibration energy from the strings we want to keep or discard. Or in other words, gives us the desired tone.

Then from there you consider the makeup of the guitar body. All of the variables associated with types of wood, grain direction, glues and adhesives, the shapes, the truss rod, etc. etc. All of those things play into how the body of the guitar will react to the vibration energy of the strings. So, how the body resonates when you strum is a byproduct of all of those things and how they interact.

Lost vibration energy in the system (specifically at the fundamental frequency of the vibrating string and the next few harmonics) generally correlates to a loss of sustain.

At the risk of taking it further... The sound that's generated via pickups when you pluck a string is a product of the relative motion between the string, and the pickup. If a guitar body does not resonate, then the ONLY relative motion that comes into the equation is that between the string and the fixed position of the pickup. So ONE pattern of relative motion.

When the guitar body DOES resonate, now you have TWO or more patterns of relative motion between the pickup and the string, which produce additional layers of harmonic content in the output signal. Which is why, when the recipe for all the factors above is right, you have an instrument that sings, as opposed to one that feels dead and one-dimensional.


Was that too much? Probably..

And I haven't even started drinking yet..
 

marshall1987

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Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
Mercifully, it clearly was a conscious decision on your part to leave out the thorny topic of hide glue vs. Titebond. Well done! :dude:
 

reddeluxe

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2017
Messages
82
EdmundGTP, your thinking mirrors mine: I don't want loose or ill fitting bridge/tailpiece components and try to couple the stoptail directly to the guitar to get the most transfer of string energy into the body of the guitar as possible. You are accurate about your "pie chart", too; the differences in string length behind the ABR-1 and the break angle will be much more subtle than a heavier string gauge difference would cause. One last thing; with guitars having a neck angle that requires a taller bridge height, it is sometimes impossible to set the stop tail directly onto the guitar top, without the strings contacting the back of the ABR-1 itself, due to severe break angle of the strings. Never a good idea and can cause all sorts of weird overtones, harmonics, and poor tone. This type situation is a perfect application of the top wrap, as the stoptail can be adjusted down to the guitar top for good energy trasfer while also lessening the string break angle. I know this is going pretty deep down the rabbit hole, but these things all do make slight differences that the player can notice. Well done on your info.
 

marshall1987

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Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
It probably goes without saying.....if you play a style of music that incorporates aggressive string bends, a greater amount of neck relief will facilitate this playing style. A straight or flat neck, with very little relief, will make the guitar feel stiff.
 

agogetr

Active member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
451
what i did was a/b my 61 dot against my 68 metalic burgundy.. i was shocked because they sounded almost identical.. to me at least. really made me rethink things, oh ya i went out and snagged a couple more traps for 3500 each, that was about 5 years ago, they have also done quite well as an investment. i will thin the herd in a couple more years and play around with something else. (the faded burgundy is staying)
 
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