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  1. #1
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    I'm looking at a Reverb listing for a vintage 1967 Gibson ES-335. The seller claims the unplayed guitar was discovered "under-the-bed" of the original owner's family house. Perhaps I'm wrong... but IMO it looks too perfect, and then the red flags...

    Here's a link to the Reverb listing.......

    https://reverb.com/item/32728702-gib...td-1967-cherry

    Just looking at the limited photos from the listing ....I'm seeing potential red flags which give me pause.

    For example:

    1. The "Gibson" logo on the headstock looks very odd.

    2. The pick guard seems to wide, the dimensions don't look right.

    3. The neck heel looks odd, it's somewhat large and rounded in appearance.

    4. The "f" holes look odd, position seems off.

    5. The location of the "crown" inlay on the headstock appears "off".


    See photos from listing below....Opinions??







    Last edited by marshall1987; 05-23-20 at 06:55 PM.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
    London, England

  2. #2
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    Esseries Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Looks “jake” to me (as Gil would say) ...and it’s highly unlikely anyone would go to the trouble of faking a ‘67 335...

  3. #3
    All Access/Backstage Pass Progrocker111's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Looks ok to me, the crown position on headstock went lower in early 1967, logo is ok for 67 too.
    My diagnosis is: Hiwatt and Norlinphilia


    1977 Gibson Les Paul Custom winered
    1972 Hiwatt DR103, 1972 Hiwatt SE4122

  4. #4
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by RAB View Post
    Looks “jake” to me (as Gil would say) ...and it’s highly unlikely anyone would go to the trouble of faking a ‘67 335...
    Well....when you take note of the guitar's unusually high price, all bets are off.

    It's nearly in the price range of a large neck '65 with trapeze tailpiece.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
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  5. #5
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by Progrocker111 View Post
    Looks ok to me, the crown position on headstock went lower in early 1967, logo is ok for 67 too.
    I'm holding my original '67 right now....and seeing very noticeable differences between the two guitars. It may take enlarging the photos to see the features clearly.

    The neck heel is especially glaring.




    COMPARE TO THIS ORIGINAL '67 ES-335.......**note "squared" shoulders on the neck heel.



    COMPARISON OF HEADSTOCKS (above... the Reverb "Under-the-bed, 1967 ES-335"; vs. below... original vintage '67 ES-335)



    Last edited by marshall1987; 05-24-20 at 11:01 AM.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
    London, England

  6. #6
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall1987 View Post
    Well....when you take note of the guitar's unusually high price, all bets are off.

    It's nearly in the price range of a large neck '65 with trapeze tailpiece.
    But why not fake a ‘59 dotneck instead? Much more potential coin for the perpetrator!

  7. #7
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by RAB View Post
    But why not fake a ‘59 dotneck instead? Much more potential coin for the perpetrator!
    I agree....but think about it for a moment. Don't you believe a fraudulent 1959 ES-335 would attract a LOT MORE scrutiny from the experts? . It's a completely different matter for a 1967. I mean, who cares?

    This guitar isn't so much about intentionally passing off a "fake" '67; the more plausible explanation is the guitar's owner thinks it's a 1967, because that's what the previous owner told him. So everyone assumes it must be a 1967. That is, until I come along.

    DESCRIPTION FROM THE REVERB LISTING:

    "Okay, quite a story on this one. About fifteen years ago I bought this guitar from the original owner. Using his paper route money, he ordered the guitar from his local music store in July 1967. When it arrived he was given a free lesson and a gig-bag and sent on his way. As he told me, he played it for about a week until he broke the first string. He said he had trouble replacing it so he put it back in the bag and shoved it under the bed. Time moved on, high school sports, off to college, moved across the country, had kids, life, etc. All the while this guitar literally sat at his parents house, under the bed, in a bag. Fast-forward thirty-five years or so. When I first see the guitar it has a rusty unwound "g" string tied using a half-hitch around the first string tuner post. It had been there since July'67. It had not been played, or ever plugged into an amp as the owner didn't have one. I've plugged it in one time only just to test the harness and pickups when I bought it. That's correct, it's been plugged in ONE TIME ! It is now wearing it's second set of strings in almost fifty-three years. I've played it for less than twenty minutes in the time I've owned it. I bought a block neck '62 reissue because I just couldn't bring myself to put wear on this thing. Like one of my dealer friends said, "How'd you like to be the first guy to slam that thing into the corner of the coffee table?". It's been in a new aftermarket case stored properly with my other guitars since I've owned it. Several local dealers have seen it and their comments were, " That's a Museum piece". "Don't EVER play that thing". One guy said, "I haven't seen one that clean since I used to unpack them from the factory". A long term luthier friend feels It could be the best one of these left. I won't go that far at all, In fact I could see some burnishing on the back when I shot the pics. I think the owner spent his first week doing his Elvis moves in his bedroom mirror, like thirteen year old kid might do!"


    From the evidence I see, it's an unverified "under-the-bed" ES-335 of an unknown age & origin, with "quite a story on this one". Perhaps even a Chinese copy?? And why is it the seller conveniently omits a clear photo of the serial number on the back of the headstock, or inside orange label?

    Final thought......look at the price the guitar is listed for......
    Last edited by marshall1987; 05-23-20 at 12:24 PM.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
    London, England

  8. #8
    Les Paul Forum Member deytookerjaabs's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    I don't know the details of logo placement circa '66-'69 in terms of identifying year and all that jazz.


    But, it's not a chinese copy.


    I've messaged Mr. OK Guitar himself in the past if I was concerned about anything and he was very gracious in his replies, give that a shot if you can. Personally, I don't see any red flags other than asking top dollar over top dollar which is kind of a Reverb-y thing to do these days.

  9. #9

    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Nothing looks "odd" or "off" to me. The only unfortunate thing is that it doesn't have an original hard case.

    The price is simply someone's opinion of a premium added to reflect the extremely fine condition of the guitar. And I've seen far crazier prices than this, so I'm not that surprised or shocked.

  10. #10

    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall1987 View Post
    So everyone assumes it must be a 1967. That is, until I come along.
    In your opinion, what is it ?

  11. #11
    All Access/Backstage Pass Progrocker111's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall1987 View Post
    I'm holding my original '67 right now....and seeing very noticeable differences between the two guitars. It may take enlarging the photos to see the features clearly.

    The neck heel is especially glaring.

    Yes, i have noticed that heel too, but i have seen some varibility especially during 67. Even the lowered position crown on headstock first occured in 67.
    My diagnosis is: Hiwatt and Norlinphilia


    1977 Gibson Les Paul Custom winered
    1972 Hiwatt DR103, 1972 Hiwatt SE4122

  12. #12
    Les Paul Forum Member OKGuitar's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    My 2 cents. The heel looks unusually large but I think it's legit. I've seen that before. The other thing I see is the body shape-it looks closer to a 68 but doesn't have the big f-holes, so my gut says really late 67. Read my old blog post about "the curse of the mint guitar". It's a real thing. I have had trouble selling mint guitars in the past because folks are simply afraid to play them, especially after paying a serious premium for mint. I'll take a 9/10 any time over mint. Also, that old saw about the good ones get played is just so much crap. It may be true that good ones get played but it's also true that the one's that didn't get played can be just as good. It just didn't get played enough for anybody to know if it was good or not. $7500 is a lot for a 67 but I haven't seen a big neck 65 at that price for around 4 years so the poster who made that comment should go do some research. You're looking at $9K (at least) for a big neck 65. OK, maybe 3 cents worth.

  13. #13
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    After messaging the Reverb seller regarding his "under-the-bed, 1967 ES-335", he provided this closeup photo of the serial number.....

    See anything odd with this serial number?

    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
    London, England

  14. #14
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by OKGuitar View Post
    My 2 cents. The heel looks unusually large but I think it's legit. I've seen that before. The other thing I see is the body shape-it looks closer to a 68 but doesn't have the big f-holes, so my gut says really late 67. Read my old blog post about "the curse of the mint guitar". It's a real thing. I have had trouble selling mint guitars in the past because folks are simply afraid to play them, especially after paying a serious premium for mint. I'll take a 9/10 any time over mint. Also, that old saw about the good ones get played is just so much crap. It may be true that good ones get played but it's also true that the one's that didn't get played can be just as good. It just didn't get played enough for anybody to know if it was good or not. $7500 is a lot for a 67 but I haven't seen a big neck 65 at that price for around 4 years so the poster who made that comment should go do some research. You're looking at $9K (at least) for a big neck 65. OK, maybe 3 cents worth.
    Just posted a new photo of the guitar's serial number. What do you make of the serial number? Legit?
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
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  15. #15
    Les Paul Forum Member OKGuitar's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Re-neck, IMO. Things were hectic at Gibson in 67 and weird stuff occurred but that serial is not OK. It was stamped off center and it was done one number at a time by eye which is why the digits don't line up. That also explains the big heel. Like to see a photo of the neck pickup route. That'll show a re-neck.

  16. #16
    Les Paul Forum Member deytookerjaabs's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Hmm, re-neck in this case certainly would imply full refin unless they did a smokin' job on the finish around the heel? I had a re-necked '61 355. The neck work was farmed off in 1980 to a local Nashville luthier (he left a label w/work description inside the guitar) and the refin job he did was about spotless though it was wine red thus obviously not original. If not for the hardware the guitar still looked new almost 40 years later. But, the neck construction was impeccable..one piece, thin royalite binding over the frets, right neck angle no volute etc, only way you could tell the neck wasn't original is they used a circa 1980 headstock veneer/logo.




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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Shouldnt the 67 have a narrow nut and neck? Also, the head stock shape is questionable.. but for me, the body arching under the neck pu is missing and flat like they started making them in the 80's.. which is a dead give away that this body isnt a 67,, One might expect one or two inconsistencies, but this one has a few too many for a judgement online. Would like to see side profile pics and full shot top to bottom and back as well as pickup cavities..

  18. #18
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    First photo is the "under-the-bed. '67 ES-335";.... the photo below it is an original vintage 1967 ES-335.

    **Note the dimensions of the pick guards. Hard to tell....but if both pick guards are the same, then the bodies are not identical at the waist.



    Last edited by marshall1987; 05-24-20 at 02:05 PM.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
    London, England

  19. #19

    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by OKGuitar View Post
    $7500 is a lot for a 67 but I haven't seen a big neck 65 at that price for around 4 years so the poster who made that comment should go do some research.
    I'm the poster who made the comment, and feel free to call me Jim. My comment was general. Not only was I not referring to 1967 335's, I wasn't even referring only to 335's. People put high (and often crazy) prices on things all the time, especially when the item they're selling is CLEAN like this. That was all I was saying.

  20. #20
    Les Paul Forum Member latestarter's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Looking at my just recently sold 1967 Cherry 335 I'd say the front of the head stock, logo and crown are all fine. My heel was definitely squarer, but I've seen the odd oval shape also. I'd say the F Holes are fine too. In fact, the only that doesn't look great is that serial position. And there might be a reasonable reason for that. I refretted mine with a wide string spread profile at the nut end to try and make up a little for the narrower nut. Worked well. There's even a thread here somewhere about it.
    Otherwise known as Grant.

  21. #21
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by OKGuitar View Post
    Re-neck, IMO. Things were hectic at Gibson in 67 and weird stuff occurred but that serial is not OK. It was stamped off center and it was done one number at a time by eye which is why the digits don't line up. That also explains the big heel. Like to see a photo of the neck pickup route. That'll show a re-neck.
    So you're saying it was customary for Gibson to re-neck a guitar at the factory, then stamp the S/N, off center, one number at a time, by eye?
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
    London, England

  22. #22
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by Melodyman View Post
    Shouldnt the 67 have a narrow nut and neck? Also, the head stock shape is questionable.. but for me, the body arching under the neck pu is missing and flat like they started making them in the 80's.. which is a dead give away that this body isnt a 67,, One might expect one or two inconsistencies, but this one has a few too many for a judgement online. Would like to see side profile pics and full shot top to bottom and back as well as pickup cavities..
    I noticed this too. A vintage '67 ES-335 neck pickup (in it's mounting ring) normally rests at a slight downward angle, dipping down and slanting at the end of the neck. The P/U side with pole pieces sits lower than the slug side.

    I'm not seeing the pickup slanting characteristic on the "under-the-bed" 1967 ES-335.


    Last edited by marshall1987; 05-24-20 at 10:13 PM.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
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  23. #23

    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    The crown inlay started dropping in 66, mine is in the intermediate position before it finally settled even lower in 66-67.

  24. #24
    Les Paul Forum Member OKGuitar's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    I don't see how anybody can tell the angle that the pickup is sitting against the top from the photos posted. Also, it tends to vary. I've flipped the ring on lots of them to flatten out the pickup but haven't had to on many others. Nothing tells me the body isn't Gibson. The neck? Not so much. When Gibson would do a re-neck they would generally use a larger font than normal for the new serial number to indicate that it was re-necked. The one by one misaligned numbers doesn't say Gibson to me. As far as the finish goes, I've had a couple of guitars that were renecked at Gibson and they absolutely nailed the finish at the heel. It is entirely possible that the neck was broken before the guitar received any significant wear and maybe, during the time it was being re-necked, the owner lost interest in learning to play.

    I've seen stranger things-like a 66 Strat that I bought from he original owner. He was just learning to play and broke the high E string and couldn't get the new one on, so he shoved the guitar under the bed with 5 strings and a pack of extra strings in the case with a buggered up high E string. It sat there for more than 50 years until he finally decided to sell it. He brought it to my shop and told me the story. Beginners are very easily discouraged and a neck break on your brand new 67 335 might well do that.

  25. #25
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Does this help?

    When I enlarge and enhance the photo, it's clear the pickup ring is not rotated around 180 degrees. I also see the chrome pickup cover nearly level with the end of the fingerboard. There is no discernible slanting of the neck pickup.

    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
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  26. #26

    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    could be shimmed inside the cavity

  27. #27
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    So far with this Reverb listing, $7,500, near-mint, "under-the-bed", 1967 ES-335, we have the majority group consensus claiming:

    1. Looks good; don't see anything off or odd; it's legit.

    2. Why go to the trouble to fake a '67?

    3. Headstock, crown inlay, and Gibson logo.... all correct, looks fine.

    4. Big rounded neck heel, no problem, that's not unusual, probably a '68.

    5. It's a re-neck, with an off-center, misaligned S/N, stamped one number at a time, by eye. ..... there might be a reasonable reason for that.

    6. It is NOT Gibson factory re-necked.

    And the list goes on and on..........

    My purpose in highlighting this particular Reverb listing is not to embarrass folks; rather, it's to caution and educate the LPF community to be very skeptical of ALL vintage guitars advertised on Reverb, eBay, Gbase. Take nothing at face value. Insist on high resolution photos of crucial guitar components. Demand a return policy, and above all...... Trust no one.
    Last edited by marshall1987; 05-25-20 at 11:39 PM.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
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  28. #28
    Les Paul Forum Member deytookerjaabs's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    AFAIK the serial numbers were stamped by a rotary stamp. That stamp isn't perfect. Those little rotary dials are wonky and you just stick the neck in the press. If a dial is off you still press it if not paying attention.


    First couple '67's on Reverb:






    Some serious slop..

  29. #29
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by OKGuitar View Post
    I don't see how anybody can tell the angle that the pickup is sitting against the top from the photos posted. Also, it tends to vary. I've flipped the ring on lots of them to flatten out the pickup but haven't had to on many others. Nothing tells me the body isn't Gibson. The neck? Not so much. When Gibson would do a re-neck they would generally use a larger font than normal for the new serial number to indicate that it was re-necked. The one by one misaligned numbers doesn't say Gibson to me. As far as the finish goes, I've had a couple of guitars that were renecked at Gibson and they absolutely nailed the finish at the heel. It is entirely possible that the neck was broken before the guitar received any significant wear and maybe, during the time it was being re-necked, the owner lost interest in learning to play.
    I can.......PM me if you want to know how.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
    London, England

  30. #30

    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by OKGuitar View Post
    I don't see how anybody can tell the angle that the pickup is sitting against the top from the photos posted.
    +1 ...and I’m sure not gonna send a PM to anyone who creates a thread then asks to provide information offline and not share publicly
    Last edited by garywright; 05-26-20 at 06:23 AM.

  31. #31

    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall1987 View Post
    I can.......PM me if you want to know how.

  32. #32
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    Re: 1967 Gibson ES-335, Reverb Listing

    Quote Originally Posted by garywright View Post

    It's obvious - he runs a background check on the seller - breaks into the home with a feeler gauge and measures it while the owner is asleep...... pretty standard tactics in the Vintage Guitar world....

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