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Valuable information to consider when evaluating the authenticity of a vintage burst

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

…. the only difference I can see is the spacer plate/washer behind the truss rod nut on mine. Big deal...

Yours looks original. His also looks original, but is partial hidden by the veneer over hang.
Since your headstock apparently lost its veneer in the reworking, that makes the washers look different.
 

JJ Blair

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
3,462
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

OK, now pay attention, because I'm only going to go over this once: Let's hope you already realize that the headstock does not have the original finish NOR the original Les Paul logo. That should be obvious, since we can see in your TR picture how incorrectly done the black lacquer was applied to the holly veneer. It also looks like your nut is made from 6/6 nylon and not 6/4 nylon. Not willing to die on that hill, but I have many nut blanks of newer stuff like 6/6 and vintage 6/4, and it's not looking correct. Could just be then photo, but that nut is hitting me the wrong way. But in either case, there should be lacquer on the nut, and there is not which would also indicate there is no way the headstock left a Gibson factory like that. Not to mention, Gibson sprayed the black with the truss rod in place, so the nut and the rod should have black lacquer in them, which yours doesn't. And why is that plate there?

But the truss rod cavity tells me that it never saw a Gibson factory in 1960. The cavity should be drilled with a forstner bit that make the sides parallel to each other, and the part closest to the logo round. The top part should not also go as high up the headstock as it does. Yours is more elliptical, and shaped like a 9mm parabellum. Are you not seeing the differences in geometry, at least? That is not a Gibson headstock. I mean, the mustache alone tells you that, but there's no reason somebody would "rework" the headstock and then completely change the route for the truss rod.

Oh, let's look at one other thing that you didn't respond to: In this photo, you can see black dye all over the first fret. I pointed out that black dye was all over the incorrect binding above the incorrect neck pickup cavity, because it was sloppily applied. They wound up staining the binding and the trapezoid inlay. Do you know why people dye fretboards black? Because they don't have the correct Brazilian rosewood, and they are trying to fake it. It's an old trick to help Indian rosewood look more like Brazilian.

I've overlayed your cavity with a translucent red shape directly copied from my Burst. Can you see the discrepancy now?

attachment.php
 

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Ted Nugent

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
79
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Yours looks original. His also looks original, but is partial hidden by the veneer over hang.

I’d agree.

With half of that.

the truss rod cavity tells me that it never saw a Gibson factory in 1960. The cavity should be drilled with a forstner bit that make the sides parallel to each other, and the part closest to the logo round. The top part should not also go as high up the headstock as it does. Yours is more elliptical, and shaped like a 9mm parabellum. Are you not seeing the differences in geometry, at least? That is not a Gibson headstock. I mean, the mustache alone tells you that, but there's no reason somebody would "rework" the headstock and then completely change the route for the truss rod.

AAA+++
 

JJ Blair

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
3,462
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I mean, not only is that binding too thick and completely wrong, who the hell smears black dye on their Braz board????? Get real!!!!

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Zapper

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
308
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

OK, now pay attention, because I'm only going to go over this once: Let's hope you already realize that the headstock does not have the original finish NOR the original Les Paul logo. That should be obvious, since we can see in your TR picture how incorrectly done the black lacquer was applied to the holly veneer. It also looks like your nut is made from 6/6 nylon and not 6/4 nylon. Not willing to die on that hill, but I have many nut blanks of newer stuff like 6/6 and vintage 6/4, and it's not looking correct. Could just be then photo, but that nut is hitting me the wrong way. But in either case, there should be lacquer on the nut, and there is not which would also indicate there is no way the headstock left a Gibson factory like that. Not to mention, Gibson sprayed the black with the truss rod in place, so the nut and the rod should have black lacquer in them, which yours doesn't. And why is that plate there?

But the truss rod cavity tells me that it never saw a Gibson factory in 1960. The cavity should be drilled with a forstner bit that make the sides parallel to each other, and the part closest to the logo round. The top part should not also go as high up the headstock as it does. Yours is more elliptical, and shaped like a 9mm parabellum. Are you not seeing the differences in geometry, at least? That is not a Gibson headstock. I mean, the mustache alone tells you that, but there's no reason somebody would "rework" the headstock and then completely change the route for the truss rod.

Oh, let's look at one other thing that you didn't respond to: In this photo, you can see black dye all over the first fret. I pointed out that black dye was all over the incorrect binding above the incorrect neck pickup cavity, because it was sloppily applied. They wound up staining the binding and the trapezoid inlay. Do you know why people dye fretboards black? Because they don't have the correct Brazilian rosewood, and they are trying to fake it. It's an old trick to help Indian rosewood look more like Brazilian.

I've overlayed your cavity with a translucent red shape directly copied from my Burst. Can you see the discrepancy now?

attachment.php

Jeeez JJ.... aren't there any trains running tonight for you to spot..?! Yeah, I know the nut has been changed, as has half the guitar (!), but are you seriously telling me that musical instruments made by humans will all be identical in every respect, especially when they have had some work done to them...? I think I'll defer to Tom's opinion on this one (above) if you don't mind.

Now hurry along...... I think I can hear the 12:31 to Kings Cross approaching... :hee

ps. maybe yours is the fake..!
 

daze

New member
Joined
Jul 17, 2001
Messages
2,241
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Before you all get your knickers in even more of a twist, here's a pic of me & Gareth out for a spin in my Ferrari... (unless of course it's a fake too eh JJ Blair/sweiger?!) :hee
ps. please don't tell the fuzz..!:rofl

77206840_10157427804906068_6594670280096874496_n.jpg

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
That's not a Ferrari that's Noddy's car :laugh2:
Noddy and Plod :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
 

JJ Blair

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
3,462
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Jeeez JJ.... aren't there any trains running tonight for you to spot..?! Yeah, I know the nut has been changed, as has half the guitar (!), but are you seriously telling me that musical instruments made by humans will all be identical in every respect, especially when they have had some work done to them...? I think I'll defer to Tom's opinion on this one (above) if you don't mind.

Now hurry along...... I think I can hear the 12:31 to Kings Cross approaching... :hee

ps. maybe yours is the fake..!

Trying to educate you is my form of entertainment today.

Have you ever been to the Gibson Custom Shop? They are using the same templates and machines that were in Kalamazoo. Some are so old, that they were converted from steam power to electric motors. Those routes are not hand carved. They are using the same tool and template. Your route was not made by the same tool. I have more than a dozen Gibson's sitting here in my house made between 1953 and 1969. You know what? ZERO of them have that shaped truss rod cut out. Why? Because they were actually made in Kalamazoo, unlike yours.

Tom doesn't have an opinion. Tom has Terry's opinion. Tom's original opinion was that it was fake, and then Terry, who has not seen this truss rod picture, came up with a theory, without any evidence. Terry is welcome to come in and refute the solid evidence I am presenting.

The more I see that fret board, more it looks like stained Indian rosewood. It's been stained for sure, but Brazilian has a grain that I'm not seeing in this photo. No way that's Brazilian. But you can't even see the difference in the geometry, because your myopia won't allow to understand you've been scammed. Literally the only person on this thread who thinks it's OK is Tom, who thought it was fake at first, and then let Terry come up with some weird explanation, that I doubt he would stand behind under questioning. I like Tom, and respect his history, but I bet dollars to donuts if he had this in hand, he would disagree.

Aside from the dozen or more indications that say this is fake, why did the people in England who saw this before you did, some of them very knowledgable who have bought and sold many Bursts, all say it's fake? Maybe you should stop arguing with us, and go get your money back. That's where your argument is.

This guitar and thread is a source of entertainment for a number of people. I've been texting "can you believe this shit?" pictures to several collectors and vintage repair ninjas. To a man, they all say it's whack. All you've got is some story that doesn't hold water, and a theory that if I pointed out five things to Terry, I bet you anything he would back down.

You couldn't spot a fake if it were in your hands. (Hint: It is.)
 

ampdan

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
434
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I normally don't comment on threads like this......But.....SERIOUSLY! :bigal This was/is just some kind of troll thread by the OP right?:wah
 

garywright

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2002
Messages
15,583
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

at this point it would seem so
 

Zapper

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
308
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I normally don't comment on threads like this......But.....SERIOUSLY! :bigal This was/is just some kind of troll thread by the OP right?:wah

Damn..... BUSTED..! :hee
 

Rich R

In the Zone/Backstage Pass
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
4,999
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I asked a famous Burst expert/authenticator one time about what happens to the fakes when they get outed, and he said "a lot of them wind up in Europe" :spabout
 

Stoj

Active member
Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Messages
3,514
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Why is this guitar still in this pub ? this belongs in the replica thread I started a few years ago...

Zapper you're either in on this scam or trying to convince yourself you own a burst, you know dick flexing hasn't been popular since the 80's. :worm

Take that Ferrari your hired and ride on outta here :wank
 
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Zapper

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
308
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Why is this guitar still in this pub ? this belongs in the replica thread I started a few years ago...

Zapper you're either in on this scam or trying to convince yourself you own a burst, you know dick flexing hasn't been popular since the 80's. :worm

Take that Ferrari your hired and ride on outta here :wank

No, I'm not in any 'scam', I'm just trying to authenticate my guitar, and then restore it if it does turn out to be genuine (which I'm confident it is..). I am however the only person on this thread who had actually held. played, heard & smelt (!) this guitar, which I reckon gives me an slight advantage over you guys. Having owned many Les Pauls for many years, it 'feels right' to me.... which is why I bought it. If it is indeed a replica, it's a pretty good one and a damn good player's guitar to boot.... knocks spots off any other Les Paul I've ever owned in terms of playability & sound. If it turns out I've paid a couple of grand over the odds for it then big deal.. C'est la vie! I'll put it down to experience.

Incidentally, the Ferrari F430 Spider (which as far as I can tell is genuine... no doubt you guys will disagree...!) IS mine.... As is this Lamborghini in my garage, propping up a somewhat inebriated Gareth...! Or is it me LOL..!

Come on then, let's be having some more of your hilarious wanker emoticons...!

78164046_10157427805076068_7563271158661906432_n.jpg
 

Ted Nugent

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
79
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

A replica doesn’t cost an couple of grand less than a burst. Even a re-necked and refinished burst with a sanded down back, enlarged control cavity and no original parts. Have you heard back from Gary yet?
 
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mipstoo

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
142
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

No, I'm not in any 'scam', I'm just trying to authenticate my guitar, and then restore it if it does turn out to be genuine (which I'm confident it is..). I am however the only person on this thread who had actually held. played, heard & smelt (!) this guitar, which I reckon gives me an slight advantage over you guys. Having owned many Les Pauls for many years, it 'feels right' to me.... which is why I bought it. If it is indeed a replica, it's a pretty good one and a damn good player's guitar to boot.... knocks spots off any other Les Paul I've ever owned in terms of playability & sound. If it turns out I've paid a couple of grand over the odds for it then big deal.. C'est la vie! I'll put it down to experience.

Incidentally, the Ferrari F430 Spider (which as far as I can tell is genuine... no doubt you guys will disagree...!) IS mine.... As is this Lamborghini in my garage, propping up a somewhat inebriated Gareth...! Or is it me LOL..!

Come on then, let's be having some more of your hilarious wanker emoticons...!

78164046_10157427805076068_7563271158661906432_n.jpg

Good for you mate.
I'm starting to wonder if you will even go to Gary to have your guitar checked out... Probably not.

For all I know your guitar was made in Shanghai and someone put a Gibson logo on it :salude
Enjoy it, stop waisting our time and get your letter from Tom that the guitar is real...
 

fakejake

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
1,274
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

A replica doesn’t cost an couple of grand. less than a burst. Even a re-necked and refinished burst with a sanded down back, enlarged control cavity and no original parts. Have you heard back from Gary yet?

Good point. A nice replica should be, what, 10.000? If that guitar should be what you claim it to be, it would probably be around 100.000.
I'd be REALLY pissed if there was even a shadow of a doubt.
 
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