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Valuable information to consider when evaluating the authenticity of a vintage burst

I don't recall

New member
Joined
Apr 9, 2020
Messages
9
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Ian, dude- it’s over. You did amazingly well, really remarkably well with what you had to work with, up against the worldwide Burst community whom you had not an inkling would be publicly crushing you and your guitar to dust, and we’ve all really enjoyed it, but this is silly now.
There’s also not a dealer or vintage Les Paul enthusiast in the UK or US who now doesn’t know your and Gareth’s names and the high end guitars you hold between you :rolleyes

You’ve maintained commendable good humour through all this, and you should absolutely sell it to Terry Mueller immediately so you actually get something out of it all.

I’d name this the ‘Corona Burst’, as it most likely originated in Asia, causes intense but brief confusion and distress and is highly contagious.
not chibson woods. garage burst. I hear there's a few more floating around....
 

mipstoo

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
142
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Ok I admit it... 'Corona Burst' is actually quite amusing..! But what flavour Corona (ask yer Mum)? If it does turn out to be a dud then presumably 'Lemon'...

And why has no-one yet dared to answer my post #553 and managed to come up with a 'back-of-the-envelope' worst case number for me? No-one here any good at maffs..?! Would be nice to know if I can afford to eat tonight.... :spabout

Less than what you traded for... especially if you added money.

I don't understand why you go back to the seller?
 

2002standardmat

Active member
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
1,152
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I think this has been one of the all time classic LPF threads, with many heavy hitters, compelling twists and turns, upsets and reveals and has been highly educational for all, and I think harkens to the days when you knew the LPF held the most potent concentration of experience, wisdom and also vocal veracity :dude:

Yes, this horse has been flogged to foam- but we keep getting handed bigger and bigger clubs to do so :hmm

Absotivelyposafuckinglutely!
 

I don't recall

New member
Joined
Apr 9, 2020
Messages
9
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I’d wholly agree with this, and it’s not easy to overlook the other guitars connected with the OP and players in this thread- has the ‘58 sunburst been authenticated by a known and recognised person? Has the ‘56 and ‘58 Goldtops on Gareth Ayers Facebook been authenticated?
The OP states he’s not an expert, and that no one has seen it in hand other than himself and the seller, and it’s literally only Tom Wittrock and Terry Mueller who insist it’s genuine based on the same pics we’ve all seen, but have no detailed and plausible come back against explicit public statements it’s a poor fake from Joe Bomamassa, JJ Blair and F-Hole et al, with numerous others who’ve lived and breathed Bursts for decades agreeing behind the scenes.

This thread would have fizzled out days ago if it wasn’t for Terry’s remarkable explanation for all the scrutinised problems, but neither he nor Tom will budge despite the opinions of their respected peers, and it seems it’d be useful for those parties to step up and make a plausible and detailed argument to explain to us why they’re convinced, rather than die on a hill defending a random and highly suspect guitar with no provable provenance from an unknown and self proclaimed uneducated source :hmm
ditto. there is not even an unreasonablef sinareo for the bizzaro amateur retooling. Beer goggles?,
 

Ted Nugent

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
79
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Ok I admit it... 'Corona Burst' is actually quite amusing..! But what flavour Corona (ask yer Mum)? If it does turn out to be a dud then presumably 'Lemon'...

And why has no-one yet dared to answer my post #553 and managed to come up with a 'back-of-the-envelope' worst case number for me? No-one here any good at maffs..?! Would be nice to know if I can afford to eat tonight.... :spabout

‘If it does turn out to be a dud?’ Have you not yet realised there are only two people in the entire known universe convinced that your guitar is a real 1960 Les Paul? Tom & Terry. And Terry had to convince Tom. I can tell you exactly what it’s worth in the real world if you really want to know? And you can have this valuation for free! It’s worth exactly what Terry is prepared to pay you for it. And considering the guitars you traded plus the undisclosed amount of cash, I’d suggest that that’s an offer you can’t afford to refuse IMHO.
 

S. Weiger

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
1,744
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Ditto...
Theres no smoking gun pictures to a home made guitar. Not Luthier quality. Only thing magical about this transaction was when the money vanished.

It was not home made. As other knowledgeable members have pointed out, it is most likely a MIJ copycrap guitar, home butchered in a pathetic attempt to resemble the real thing. :XRE
 

Rev.WillieVK

Active member
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
9,268
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I remember Joe Ganzler stating here that he sent Terry Mueller all his pics of that Sheldon fake he authenticated and Terry gave him a thumbs-up on it, fwiw.

No no NO! Terry NEVER liked the Sheldon guitars and questioned WTF Joe thought he saw.
 

madformac

Active member
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Messages
719
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I take a couple of days off from reading this and miss 6 pages..

I'm still of the same opinion I was on page one which is it's a lovely case..

Very entertaining thread with a lot of the old guard coming out to play. :salude


As JJ said, it's taken my mind off rather more serious and close to home issues right now. Stay safe everyone.
 

60'sGold

New member
Joined
Mar 4, 2016
Messages
59
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

This thread is like the chinese joint down the street. It delivers!!!!!!!!

Either beat the shit out of that limey bastard that can't dance, or sue his panties off, then beat the shit out of him.
 

ourmaninthenorth

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
7,119
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I'm not finding this entertaining in the slightest, cringe worthy yes, entertaining? not by a long chalk....

JJ Blair gets my Man of the Match.
 

mipstoo

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
142
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I'm not finding this entertaining in the slightest, cringe worthy yes, entertaining? not by a long chalk....

JJ Blair gets my Man of the Match.
^^^^^
+1

The guitar, behaviour of the OP, threats from the sellers ...
That these things can still happen, and that buyers are ok with it so it continues...

Cringe worthy indeed
 

Flogger

Active member
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
555
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Welp, if there is one thing that I have learned from this thread, it's don't mortgage the house to fund a Burst.

If "world recognised experts" cannot agree on this fugazi, then pretty much any authentication is worthless.
 

JJ Blair

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
3,462
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

OK JJ, thanks for the pic of the rings. I assume you mean 'blacklighting' rather than 'backlighting'? Let's say for the sake of argument that you are right - the guitar is some sort of replica but with some original '60s & '70s parts. If so, surely gotta be worth more than Harris's £300 valuation? Do you agree? I've heard for instance that the plastic selector ring, assuming original, is worth well over that on its own!

So, rather like breaking a car for its individual parts, anyone want to hazard a guess at my worst case scenario in terms of value? If say it IS a '52 Junior body, and decent '70s neck, and '60s knobs & selector ring, and '79 T Top, and '70s DiMarzio, and replica M69s, and '74 pots, and '70s Grovers..... gotta be worth a few quid/bucks.... surely?!

I have no idea about the value of these vintage parts, hence coming to you guys for advice. But if anyone does, how about adding up the value of these bits on the back of an envelope for me? At least I'll then be prepared for the worst if Gary does give it the thumbs down...!


And surely the case is worth a few quid/bucks if a genuine '60s Cali girl??

I don't know if it's a proper selector ring. I just said I can't say for sure it isn't, from that photo.
That's not a '70s neck, and it's not a Junior body.
Take the money Terry is offering, He's a big boy, and he's making his own mistake, eyes wife open, where as Gareth took advantage of you.

"You'll never go broke taking a profit." - Warren Buffet
 

K_L

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
566
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Zapper, now I'm starting to think that you're not in on the scam, and you just got taken advantage of. Either go to my website and e-mail me or find me on FB. I want to help you out before you find yourself in a situation you can't get out of. Burst authentication is clearly not your forté, and I don't want to see you get hurt, because those blacklight pics are pretty damning.

This is the best post of this thread imho. JJ Blair--what you wrote here is awesome!!
 

JJ Blair

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Jan 9, 2011
Messages
3,462
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I remember when I was 21, and I was buying and selling a bunch of carpets, I walking around the Rose Bowl swap meet with my rug mentor. I had just bought a 1930's Bakhtiari Chahar Mahal for $650. My friend didn't think I got such a good deal. It wasn't that it was fake, but rather that it would be a hard rug to make a profit on with the dealers on LaCienega. But, being the genius he is, he told me to walk with it in front of this other guy's booth at the swap meet, because he was not a very knowledgable seller, and he would want to buy it, and I should sell it to him for $800.

Sure enough, I walk in front of that guy's booth, he wants to see the rug I'm holding, asks how much, I tell him $800, and boom, I just made $150, rather than sitting on a rug that I was going to have a hard time moving.

Sell Terry the guitar. Take the profit. Move on.
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

I’m uncomfortable with this comment tbh- we can all make mistakes, and my sense is Terry was biased towards giving a positive assessment perhaps? He’s as far as I know a highly respected luthier with a long and respectable career, and this is a farcical blip over a negligible item.

Both Terry and myself will gladly admit if we have it wrong. And from all the posts, it seems very possible we have gotten it wrong.
Neither of us like the term "expert" applied to us [although I did apply it to Terry; I shouldn't have used that word].

Gary W hasn't seen the guitar in person, but seems to feel strongly it isn't a real Burst.

I am disappointed in the negativity and hate posted by several here. Not the first time, and probably not the last time.
 

garywright

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2002
Messages
15,582
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

not sure if there was any “hate” posted ..however, strong feelings came about with the “110%” claim of authenticity by Terry
 

60'sGold

New member
Joined
Mar 4, 2016
Messages
59
Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :)

Would love to hear the conversation between these two wankers. Either Garth isn't answering the telly, (that's a telephone over there), or he's still trying to convince the OD, (original douche), that it is still to legit to quit, and this place is crazy.

Or.........they're both in on it, and they came up with a plan to run the guitar by this place, and see if anyone salutes, and say that Garth sold it to him.

Not buying the 'reworked' angle. Bursts have been special for a long time. Who would 'rework' the neck/headstock, then 'rework' the pickup routes, then decide to go all in and 'rework' the control cavity, making all things that make a Burst recognizable unrecognizable.

I certainly don't know Terry Mueller, but have nothing but mad respect for him. Being a home luthier, (I love working on guitars), I know he's tops in his craft. No idea what he sees, of course. We'll probably never know. Actually knowing if this is a 100% '58, '59, or '60s Gibson is above my paygrade, but it looks absolutely like nothing I've been lead to believe is a Burst over the last couple decades.

Do I feel bad for the buyer? No. He seems like a jackass. Not my kind of guy. Doesn't listen well and lost touch with reality, most likely years ago. Do I give a fuck about his money? Again, no. If you have a face like that, you better have a little 'dosh', or a fuckload of hand gel.

This thread was fun. I hope everyone stays safe and sane. Everything's gone cray cray. Don't waste ammo, and shoot straight. It's probably gonna get crazier. My best wishes to all, except Garth. Peace out.:dude:
 
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