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  1. #241
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner and Moderator CDaughtry's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Before the inevitable threat comes to the ownership of the Forum threatening to sue us if we don't take this thread down, please read Sec. 230 of the Communications Decency Act.

    https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230

  2. #242
    Les Paul Forum Member Patek's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapper View Post
    Amusing? In what way please? You never heard of the Small Claims Court (which I have used on numerous occasions..?).
    why have you found yourself in court on numerous occasions?

  3. #243
    Les Paul Forum Member Zapper's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Nugent View Post
    Can you point out the chew mark please? my eyes ain't so good. I can see a 1974 pot code, but no chewy?
    Like I said, a 'very shallow' chew mark (the discoloured bit with the slight lip above it), which would have been reduced in size if Terry Mueller is right and the cavity was opened up slightly..



    ps. have just noticed the 2 strand earth screening on the pickup cables. Maybe they're original after all..
    Last edited by Zapper; 04-07-20 at 04:09 PM.

  4. #244
    Les Paul Forum Member Zapper's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Patek View Post
    why have you found yourself in court on numerous occasions?
    Coz I'm a litigious motherf*cker.....

  5. #245
    Les Paul Forum Member 2002standardmat's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapper View Post
    Amusing? In what way please? You never heard of the Small Claims Court (which I have used on numerous occasions..?).
    Barking dogs never bite.

    I am familiar with the Small Claims Court.

    Have you ever heard of Magistrates Court and Crown Court? I’ve used those on numerous occasions too.
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  6. #246
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Get yourself a legitimate in hand appraisal of someone objective and trustworthy instead of trying to convince us.
    I'm surprised the sellers didn't do that and that you were just taking them up on their word.

    A lot of things about this story and guitar don't add up, but at the moment we're turning in circles. A childish yes-no game.
    Whatever we say, it's like talking to a brick wall.

    Either way, like BB would say, the thrill is gone

  7. #247
    Les Paul Forum Member 2002standardmat's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Nugent View Post
    Better Call Saul sounds better to me. Thereís nothing to see here. No big guns. Iím sure it gets a bit old all this.
    Saul is starting to looking like the better option.

    Although there are two cats having a fight outside at the moment, I might go and have a look at that first.
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  8. #248
    Les Paul Forum Member JJ Blair's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapper View Post
    Like I said, a 'very shallow' chew mark (the discoloured bit with the slight lip above it), which would have been reduced in size if Terry Mueller is right and the cavity was opened up slightly..



    ps. have just noticed the 2 strand earth screening on the pickup cables. Maybe they're original after all..
    Yeah ... no. Thatís not a chew out.

    I am still waiting for your explanation about why everything is wrong with your truss rod photo. did you spot all the differences between yours and mine? Do you need me to list them for you?

  9. #249
    Les Paul Forum Member JJ Blair's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Seriously. Iím stuck home for a while with nothing to do. I have plenty of time on my hands to teach you about why this guitar is a fake, if you are willing to actually learn something.

  10. #250

    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ Blair View Post
    Yeah ... no. Thatís not a chew out.

    I am still waiting for your explanation about why everything is wrong with your truss rod photo. did you spot all the differences between yours and mine? Do you need me to list them for you?
    Can you anyway, Iím interested even if the OP isnít.

  11. #251
    Les Paul Forum Member Zapper's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ Blair View Post
    Yeah ... no. Thatís not a chew out.

    I am still waiting for your explanation about why everything is wrong with your truss rod photo. did you spot all the differences between yours and mine? Do you need me to list them for you?
    I've been comparing your pic to the actual guitar (unlike you) and the only difference I can see is the spacer plate/washer behind the truss rod nut on mine. Big deal...

  12. #252
    Les Paul Forum Member Zapper's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by grimlyflick View Post
    Can you anyway, Iím interested even if the OP isnít.
    Can't you see them then Grimly..? Come on they're.. er.. obvious..! And vitally important to the debate.....

  13. #253
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ Blair View Post
    Yeah ... no. Thatís not a chew out.

    I am still waiting for your explanation about why everything is wrong with your truss rod photo. did you spot all the differences between yours and mine? Do you need me to list them for you?
    Contemplating a new thread called "Show us your chew"

    I've seen the "noticeable chew", the "shallow chew", the "it's Friday afternoon chew"...


  14. #254
    Les Paul Forum Member madformac's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    You have to bite before you chew..

  15. #255
    Les Paul Forum Member 2002standardmat's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trainkeptarolling View Post
    Contemplating a new thread called "Show us your chew"

    I've seen the "noticeable chew", the "shallow chew", the "it's Friday afternoon chew"...


    Oh go on, just a little chew, right below my widdlerís peak...
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  16. #256
    Les Paul Forum Member Zapper's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)


  17. #257
    Les Paul Forum Member jimmi's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapper View Post
    Rev.WillieVK has asked me to post a pic showing the truss rod route on the headstock, under the truss rod cover. So here it is in case it helps...

    just took a look after JJ refered to this. I was willing to say there might be a subtle chew on the original cavity picture but this is totally not right. Literally nothing that matters is right.

  18. #258
    Les Paul Forum Member jimmi's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ Blair View Post
    Seriously. Iím stuck home for a while with nothing to do. I have plenty of time on my hands to teach you about why this guitar is a fake, if you are willing to actually learn something.

    You can probably still find better things to do.

  19. #259
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trainkeptarolling View Post
    Contemplating a new thread called "Show us your chew"

    I've seen the "noticeable chew", the "shallow chew", the "it's Friday afternoon chew"...

    Wouldn't be right if I didn't share the "chew". My '60 Burst.

    IMG_0310.jpg

  20. #260
    Les Paul Forum Member JJ Blair's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapper View Post
    I've been comparing your pic to the actual guitar (unlike you) and the only difference I can see is the spacer plate/washer behind the truss rod nut on mine. Big deal...
    Which is exactly why you can't see the rest of everything wrong with this guitar. Stay tuned...

  21. #261
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner Tom Wittrock's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapper View Post
    Ö. the only difference I can see is the spacer plate/washer behind the truss rod nut on mine. Big deal...
    Yours looks original. His also looks original, but is partial hidden by the veneer over hang.
    Since your headstock apparently lost its veneer in the reworking, that makes the washers look different.
    Pauls to the walls!

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  22. #262
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Here's a tip.......

    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
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  23. #263
    Les Paul Forum Member JJ Blair's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    OK, now pay attention, because I'm only going to go over this once: Let's hope you already realize that the headstock does not have the original finish NOR the original Les Paul logo. That should be obvious, since we can see in your TR picture how incorrectly done the black lacquer was applied to the holly veneer. It also looks like your nut is made from 6/6 nylon and not 6/4 nylon. Not willing to die on that hill, but I have many nut blanks of newer stuff like 6/6 and vintage 6/4, and it's not looking correct. Could just be then photo, but that nut is hitting me the wrong way. But in either case, there should be lacquer on the nut, and there is not which would also indicate there is no way the headstock left a Gibson factory like that. Not to mention, Gibson sprayed the black with the truss rod in place, so the nut and the rod should have black lacquer in them, which yours doesn't. And why is that plate there?

    But the truss rod cavity tells me that it never saw a Gibson factory in 1960. The cavity should be drilled with a forstner bit that make the sides parallel to each other, and the part closest to the logo round. The top part should not also go as high up the headstock as it does. Yours is more elliptical, and shaped like a 9mm parabellum. Are you not seeing the differences in geometry, at least? That is not a Gibson headstock. I mean, the mustache alone tells you that, but there's no reason somebody would "rework" the headstock and then completely change the route for the truss rod.

    Oh, let's look at one other thing that you didn't respond to: In this photo, you can see black dye all over the first fret. I pointed out that black dye was all over the incorrect binding above the incorrect neck pickup cavity, because it was sloppily applied. They wound up staining the binding and the trapezoid inlay. Do you know why people dye fretboards black? Because they don't have the correct Brazilian rosewood, and they are trying to fake it. It's an old trick to help Indian rosewood look more like Brazilian.

    I've overlayed your cavity with a translucent red shape directly copied from my Burst. Can you see the discrepancy now?

    Attached Images Attached Images

  24. #264

    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wittrock View Post
    Yours looks original. His also looks original, but is partial hidden by the veneer over hang.
    I’d agree.

    With half of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ Blair View Post
    the truss rod cavity tells me that it never saw a Gibson factory in 1960. The cavity should be drilled with a forstner bit that make the sides parallel to each other, and the part closest to the logo round. The top part should not also go as high up the headstock as it does. Yours is more elliptical, and shaped like a 9mm parabellum. Are you not seeing the differences in geometry, at least? That is not a Gibson headstock. I mean, the mustache alone tells you that, but there's no reason somebody would "rework" the headstock and then completely change the route for the truss rod.
    AAA+++

  25. #265
    Les Paul Forum Member JJ Blair's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    I mean, not only is that binding too thick and completely wrong, who the hell smears black dye on their Braz board????? Get real!!!!

    Attached Images Attached Images

  26. #266
    Les Paul Forum Member Zapper's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ Blair View Post
    OK, now pay attention, because I'm only going to go over this once: Let's hope you already realize that the headstock does not have the original finish NOR the original Les Paul logo. That should be obvious, since we can see in your TR picture how incorrectly done the black lacquer was applied to the holly veneer. It also looks like your nut is made from 6/6 nylon and not 6/4 nylon. Not willing to die on that hill, but I have many nut blanks of newer stuff like 6/6 and vintage 6/4, and it's not looking correct. Could just be then photo, but that nut is hitting me the wrong way. But in either case, there should be lacquer on the nut, and there is not which would also indicate there is no way the headstock left a Gibson factory like that. Not to mention, Gibson sprayed the black with the truss rod in place, so the nut and the rod should have black lacquer in them, which yours doesn't. And why is that plate there?

    But the truss rod cavity tells me that it never saw a Gibson factory in 1960. The cavity should be drilled with a forstner bit that make the sides parallel to each other, and the part closest to the logo round. The top part should not also go as high up the headstock as it does. Yours is more elliptical, and shaped like a 9mm parabellum. Are you not seeing the differences in geometry, at least? That is not a Gibson headstock. I mean, the mustache alone tells you that, but there's no reason somebody would "rework" the headstock and then completely change the route for the truss rod.

    Oh, let's look at one other thing that you didn't respond to: In this photo, you can see black dye all over the first fret. I pointed out that black dye was all over the incorrect binding above the incorrect neck pickup cavity, because it was sloppily applied. They wound up staining the binding and the trapezoid inlay. Do you know why people dye fretboards black? Because they don't have the correct Brazilian rosewood, and they are trying to fake it. It's an old trick to help Indian rosewood look more like Brazilian.

    I've overlayed your cavity with a translucent red shape directly copied from my Burst. Can you see the discrepancy now?

    Jeeez JJ.... aren't there any trains running tonight for you to spot..?! Yeah, I know the nut has been changed, as has half the guitar (!), but are you seriously telling me that musical instruments made by humans will all be identical in every respect, especially when they have had some work done to them...? I think I'll defer to Tom's opinion on this one (above) if you don't mind.

    Now hurry along...... I think I can hear the 12:31 to Kings Cross approaching...

    ps. maybe yours is the fake..!

  27. #267
    Les Paul Forum Member daze's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapper View Post
    Before you all get your knickers in even more of a twist, here's a pic of me & Gareth out for a spin in my Ferrari... (unless of course it's a fake too eh JJ Blair/sweiger?!)
    ps. please don't tell the fuzz..!


    That's not a Ferrari that's Noddy's car
    Noddy and Plod

  28. #268
    Les Paul Forum Member Patek's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapper View Post
    Coz I'm a litigious motherf*cker.....
    sounds like youíre often finding yourself in disputes?

  29. #269
    Les Paul Forum Member JJ Blair's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapper View Post
    Jeeez JJ.... aren't there any trains running tonight for you to spot..?! Yeah, I know the nut has been changed, as has half the guitar (!), but are you seriously telling me that musical instruments made by humans will all be identical in every respect, especially when they have had some work done to them...? I think I'll defer to Tom's opinion on this one (above) if you don't mind.

    Now hurry along...... I think I can hear the 12:31 to Kings Cross approaching...

    ps. maybe yours is the fake..!
    Trying to educate you is my form of entertainment today.

    Have you ever been to the Gibson Custom Shop? They are using the same templates and machines that were in Kalamazoo. Some are so old, that they were converted from steam power to electric motors. Those routes are not hand carved. They are using the same tool and template. Your route was not made by the same tool. I have more than a dozen Gibson's sitting here in my house made between 1953 and 1969. You know what? ZERO of them have that shaped truss rod cut out. Why? Because they were actually made in Kalamazoo, unlike yours.

    Tom doesn't have an opinion. Tom has Terry's opinion. Tom's original opinion was that it was fake, and then Terry, who has not seen this truss rod picture, came up with a theory, without any evidence. Terry is welcome to come in and refute the solid evidence I am presenting.

    The more I see that fret board, more it looks like stained Indian rosewood. It's been stained for sure, but Brazilian has a grain that I'm not seeing in this photo. No way that's Brazilian. But you can't even see the difference in the geometry, because your myopia won't allow to understand you've been scammed. Literally the only person on this thread who thinks it's OK is Tom, who thought it was fake at first, and then let Terry come up with some weird explanation, that I doubt he would stand behind under questioning. I like Tom, and respect his history, but I bet dollars to donuts if he had this in hand, he would disagree.

    Aside from the dozen or more indications that say this is fake, why did the people in England who saw this before you did, some of them very knowledgable who have bought and sold many Bursts, all say it's fake? Maybe you should stop arguing with us, and go get your money back. That's where your argument is.

    This guitar and thread is a source of entertainment for a number of people. I've been texting "can you believe this shit?" pictures to several collectors and vintage repair ninjas. To a man, they all say it's whack. All you've got is some story that doesn't hold water, and a theory that if I pointed out five things to Terry, I bet you anything he would back down.

    You couldn't spot a fake if it were in your hands. (Hint: It is.)

  30. #270
    Les Paul Forum Member ampdan's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    I normally don't comment on threads like this......But.....SERIOUSLY! This was/is just some kind of troll thread by the OP right?

  31. #271

    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    at this point it would seem so

  32. #272
    Les Paul Forum Member Zapper's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by ampdan View Post
    I normally don't comment on threads like this......But.....SERIOUSLY! This was/is just some kind of troll thread by the OP right?
    Damn..... BUSTED..!

  33. #273
    Forum Moderator T.Allen's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by ampdan View Post
    I normally don't comment on threads like this......But.....SERIOUSLY! This was/is just some kind of troll thread by the OP right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zapper View Post
    Damn..... BUSTED..!
    Yep! Even Zapper spotted that.

  34. #274
    In the Zone/Backstage Pass
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    I asked a famous Burst expert/authenticator one time about what happens to the fakes when they get outed, and he said "a lot of them wind up in Europe"

  35. #275
    Les Paul Forum Member Stoj's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Why is this guitar still in this pub ? this belongs in the replica thread I started a few years ago...

    Zapper you're either in on this scam or trying to convince yourself you own a burst, you know dick flexing hasn't been popular since the 80's.

    Take that Ferrari your hired and ride on outta here
    Last edited by Stoj; 04-07-20 at 10:48 PM.
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  36. #276
    Les Paul Forum Member JJ Blair's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoj View Post
    you know dick
    FTFY.

  37. #277
    Les Paul Forum Member Zapper's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoj View Post
    Why is this guitar still in this pub ? this belongs in the replica thread I started a few years ago...

    Zapper you're either in on this scam or trying to convince yourself you own a burst, you know dick flexing hasn't been popular since the 80's.

    Take that Ferrari your hired and ride on outta here
    No, I'm not in any 'scam', I'm just trying to authenticate my guitar, and then restore it if it does turn out to be genuine (which I'm confident it is..). I am however the only person on this thread who had actually held. played, heard & smelt (!) this guitar, which I reckon gives me an slight advantage over you guys. Having owned many Les Pauls for many years, it 'feels right' to me.... which is why I bought it. If it is indeed a replica, it's a pretty good one and a damn good player's guitar to boot.... knocks spots off any other Les Paul I've ever owned in terms of playability & sound. If it turns out I've paid a couple of grand over the odds for it then big deal.. C'est la vie! I'll put it down to experience.

    Incidentally, the Ferrari F430 Spider (which as far as I can tell is genuine... no doubt you guys will disagree...!) IS mine.... As is this Lamborghini in my garage, propping up a somewhat inebriated Gareth...! Or is it me LOL..!

    Come on then, let's be having some more of your hilarious wanker emoticons...!


  38. #278

    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    A replica doesn’t cost an couple of grand less than a burst. Even a re-necked and refinished burst with a sanded down back, enlarged control cavity and no original parts. Have you heard back from Gary yet?
    Last edited by Ted Nugent; 04-08-20 at 02:47 AM.

  39. #279
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapper View Post
    No, I'm not in any 'scam', I'm just trying to authenticate my guitar, and then restore it if it does turn out to be genuine (which I'm confident it is..). I am however the only person on this thread who had actually held. played, heard & smelt (!) this guitar, which I reckon gives me an slight advantage over you guys. Having owned many Les Pauls for many years, it 'feels right' to me.... which is why I bought it. If it is indeed a replica, it's a pretty good one and a damn good player's guitar to boot.... knocks spots off any other Les Paul I've ever owned in terms of playability & sound. If it turns out I've paid a couple of grand over the odds for it then big deal.. C'est la vie! I'll put it down to experience.

    Incidentally, the Ferrari F430 Spider (which as far as I can tell is genuine... no doubt you guys will disagree...!) IS mine.... As is this Lamborghini in my garage, propping up a somewhat inebriated Gareth...! Or is it me LOL..!

    Come on then, let's be having some more of your hilarious wanker emoticons...!

    Good for you mate.
    I'm starting to wonder if you will even go to Gary to have your guitar checked out... Probably not.

    For all I know your guitar was made in Shanghai and someone put a Gibson logo on it
    Enjoy it, stop waisting our time and get your letter from Tom that the guitar is real...

  40. #280
    Les Paul Forum Member fakejake's Avatar
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    Re: Restoring my 1960 'Burst... need HELP..!! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Nugent View Post
    A replica doesnít cost an couple of grand. less than a burst. Even a re-necked and refinished burst with a sanded down back, enlarged control cavity and no original parts. Have you heard back from Gary yet?
    Good point. A nice replica should be, what, 10.000? If that guitar should be what you claim it to be, it would probably be around 100.000.
    I'd be REALLY pissed if there was even a shadow of a doubt.

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