les pauls can't be tuned

Yes, it works like a bridge by intonating both ends of the string. The string length is compensated for each string, so fretted notes are still affected by tuned string length.

If the out of pitch tuning of fretted notes and chords doesn't bother you or you are used to it, fine, I never claimed everybody cared as much or had to install an earvana nut. All I did was offer up a proven, relative easy fix that really works. I gave an honest, tested, verified fix for those of us who are botherd by this, hear it and desire to play with other instruments in tune.

Here are the simple FACTS & TRUTH of the matter.

All fretted guitars play out of tune, to various degrees, unless compensated for individual string length at bridge and nut. [regular guitars, not those with compensated frets etc.].

You can easily test this by using any good tuner or tuner app and the more accurate, [strobe], the better. Play an open, tuned E, checking to make sure it is perfectly tuned. Then fret any E note, anywhere on the neck. Scary huh? Was any in pitch? Go ahead and check any note. Are you OK with that? I like to use open notes when I play and fret notes against the ringing note. It bothers me that I CAN hear how sour it can sound. All kinds of things I shouldn't have to explain. IT IS NOT IN PITCH

This is the truth. Fact not fiction and if it isn't an issue for some, so what? I don't care. I don't care if older recordings are great and we all love 'em. I still hear the off pitch, sourness and like a lot of things done in the past that maybe had a kind of charm, I prefer to employ useful improvements.

I use humbucking pickups when noise is an issue, more precise tuning machines, and tuners. I embrace improvements that eliminate problematic issues I have with my gear. I don't need to hear bullshit hyperbole by some contrarian liar, using untruths, false facts, inuendo and opinion in an effort to undermine FACT.

So the guitar is out of pitch, when fretted. With itself and other instruments. Demonstrably so and verifiable. It just is. You can live with it, excuse it, ignore it, but you cannot deny it. Truth, fact, it just is. It is an issue for me. I do not just wank away, playing hyper distorted single note riffs, only sometimes. I also record and play cleaner, multi string chords and melody lines with myself and other instruments, or I did anyway. The tuning discrepancy was an issue for me and for producers. I don't like autotune software solutions, not for me.

So I tried an Earvana nut. The early version that screwed onto a baselike nut. It worked. When checked on a Peterson Strobe Tuner all the fretted notes were in pitch, or very near center for the worst offenders. WOW! A real solution that greatly improved the pitch issue. IT WORKS! It is measurable, audible and verifiable. FACT TRUTH FOR REAL

I used the drop shelf and installed on my Warmoth necks for my builds.

So guitar not in tune when fretted. Whether you care or not, it is a fact. Real. Why the denial? Why is it an issue if some of us find this to be a problem and seek a solution? How is this a problem for those that don't care???

So there is a simple fix that works. A real solution that doesn't change the way you play or tune, you just are now in tune. It sounds better. It works. Real. Fact. True.

So why the bullshit phony contadctions? Why the snide personal insulting remarks? What did I post that wasn't truthful, honest and helpful in responce to questions asked?

Why does a fucking ignorant clown always feel the need to inject his bullshit into factual discussions. I've had it with this fake ass Flowbee clown and his fake agenda. I'm glad to be outta this fucking bullshit infested waste of time. Why try to help anyone when facts don't matter and bullshit rules.

Got a big day tomorrow and more import things to do with my perfectly tuned guitars and souless playing than deal with this ignorant place on my last nite as a player.

see ya

Yeah, Earvana does not make a guitar in tune to equal temperament. It compensates to make pitches more true in certain areas, others nothing happens because a nut can't change the distance between two frets. Many people love it and swear by it, just like the other compensation systems. But, the geometry issue remains.






Good luck tomorrow, no love lost here. I'll continue to FAKE my PHONY BULLSHIT knowledge regardless, lol.

TM1 said:

Years ago we tuned by either a harmonica or a piano(if we were lucky enough to have a good piano player.) we always thought we were in-tune.. I started using the Peterson method they suggested probably 15+ years back. They suggest instead of using the open string/12th fret way of setting intonation and tuning, use the 5th/17th fret as that way your guitar will play pretty much intune up the entire neck. The open string/12th fret way only has your guitar play intune up to the 12th fret or so.. anyway, you'll only notice the difference at first.. as soon as the drummer comes in, Forget about it. You won't notice..

Click to expand...

I have one of those Peterson clamp-on strobe tuners and it has a setting that claims it provides a sweeter tuning for guitars. I wonder if this setting is the same thing you mentioned. Here's what Peterson says about the setting:


'Designed for use with guitars tuned to standard EADGBE. The strings are adjusted to allow for deflection by varying amounts according to the gauge of the string in each case. This improves and helps counter the often problematic “unwound 3rd string” problem on short scale electric guitars such as Les Pauls and the three saddle compromise on Telecasters.'

57Strat777 said:

I have one of those Peterson clamp-on strobe tuners and it has a setting that claims it provides a sweeter tuning for guitars. I wonder if this setting is the same thing you mentioned. Here's what Peterson says about the setting:


'Designed for use with guitars tuned to standard EADGBE. The strings are adjusted to allow for deflection by varying amounts according to the gauge of the string in each case. This improves and helps counter the often problematic “unwound 3rd string” problem on short scale electric guitars such as Les Pauls and the three saddle compromise on Telecasters.'

Click to expand...

The “sweeter” tuning that Peterson is indicating is an effort to account for the higher degree of compression force required to fret the wound strings in the first few frets (pulls the notes sharp), and the interval problems with the unwound G string in the lower frets also.

Here’s the shortcut assuming the guitar is otherwise set up correctly (nut slot height, intonation at the bridge): Drop the open pitch of the low E and G just a hair (very slight dissonance with other strings). It’s a valid correction and gets things very close - good enough to place the rest on the player.

IMO: A good setup and a little tuning adjustment such as this should be the extent of what players should concern themselves with. Having replaced string nuts on a lot of Custom Shop Paul’s, I don’t think it’s necessary or worth the risk of finish disruption on the headstock, neck slot margins. It’s easy enough to play with string gauge (best for tuning issues is actually lighter gauges on the wound strings), intonation, to get these stock guitars closer than most instruments used for what we’ve been listening to for decades.

There are a lot of technically accurate points made on this thread but as I stated early on - this isn’t that complex or so hard to mitigate as some have made it out to be - including the now-banned OP.

From a Luthiers site

They go into detail on fret positions and have Java calculators to the fret distance, but they essentially say it's all relative to the listener.
How Accurate do You Need to Be?

This is an interesting question for which there is no simple answer. In point of fact, there is no need to be any more accurate about fret placement and compensation than is necessary for the instrument to play in tune. But “play in tune” is not as easy to define as it might at first appear. Humans have very good hearing (compared to other animals), and musicians have very good (but hardly mathematically perfect) musical pitch perception (compared to other humans), but there are a large number of factors that affect perception of pitch. The relationship of the harmonics of a vibrating string to each other strongly affect the perception of the pitch of the fundamental. Pitch perception is strongly correlated with culture. What in one culture would be considered way out of tune would be considered right on the money in another. Pitch perception is affected by the instrument under consideration. For example, folks are generally much more tolerant of pitch variability from ideals when the instrument is a fretless instrument such as a violin. This can be tested easily enough by subjecting the individual notes of a solo violin recording of a player known for excellent intonation to pitch analysis. Pitch perception is also affected by the combination of instruments playing. It is even affected by the volume at which a piece is played. And last but not least, each individual has his/her own pitch sensitivity.
...
For all practical purposes if you do your calculations to three decimal places and place your saw to within 0.01'' you'll be at about the industry standard for this kind of work.

KR1 said:

The “sweeter” tuning that Peterson is indicating is an effort to account for the higher degree of compression force required to fret the wound strings in the first few frets (pulls the notes sharp), and the interval problems with the unwound G string in the lower frets also.

Here’s the shortcut assuming the guitar is otherwise set up correctly (nut slot height, intonation at the bridge): Drop the open pitch of the low E and G just a hair (very slight dissonance with other strings). It’s a valid correction and gets things very close - good enough to place the rest on the player.

Click to expand...

This to the letter

duaneflowers said:

If you're having tuning issues it is most like a setup problem, not a design one. I've got quite a few Les Pauls and ALL of them stay in tune perfectly. I can even take one out of the case after a couple months and it is still in tune. So my advise would be to get a proper setup... :salude

Click to expand...

Exactly. I don't have may Les Pauls, I have one, a 60th Anniversary R9, and it stays in tune beautifully. It's my third LP, the first one was a Traditional, and it too stayed in perfect tune, for days at time, and so did the R9 I bought in 2013. As a long time Strat player, I'd say my Strat, and the other one's that I've had go out of tune much easier and more frequently. Oh, and I see the original poster has been banned. He was getting a little nasty.

Texas Blues said:

Well bless your heart.

Heres some oiled up tone deaf playing.

Enjoy.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/JC_EHCZv-O0" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Click to expand...

Sweet!! Nice chops!

Still seems to be a lot of confusion so let's have some fun with numbers!! :dude:

Hopefully, with some #'s and patience things will make a lot more sense. In the next few posts I'll lay out a high resolution analysis of pitch I did on a guitar of mine, hopefully more in the future just for experiment's sake and give a thorough run down of the details.

To start, and for others who want to have fun, I'll be using Sonic Visualiser. It's an industry standard in DSP analysis for engineers in the various fields which rely on high res data in spectral/audio analyses. Plus, it's free! So, lots of companies love that feature. Also, I'll be using the Vamp plugin known as pYIN. If you're not familiar with the YIN algorithm here's a splash of detail:

http://audition.ens.fr/adc/pdf/2002_JASA_YIN.pdf

As of 2020, the YIN algorithm is still about the most accurate math out there being used for pitch detection in instruments/speech/sound. It's notably more high resolution and concrete than the periodic wav method alone which is what analog & some other tuners are based on. When using it to track your pitches you'll notice a takes quite some time to get your open strings & 12th fret accurate to the single digit and then to the tenths decimal place takes even longer, not to mention it tracks frequency to the thousandth decimal place. Whereas, with convention strobe or pocket guitar tuners you can be within their wider tolerance of pitch much more quickly.

So, once you open up the program, record the notes (after a LOT of micro tuning), you process the "melodic spectrograph" layer then process the "notes" feature in the pYIN plugin (which is tweaked to track the fundamental of monophonic signals) it will look like this:



I did this for each string and only took the data after getting the open string & 12th fret to the exact 10'ths decimal for each string, takes a while, lol. Then, I ran through each note with proper/normal touch in the playing position. Here's the rounded off raw note data:

E: 82.4, 87.2, 92.3, 97.98, 104.71, 110.05, 116.4, 123.25, 130.52, 138.23,146.8, 155.38, 164.8
A: 110, 116.52, 123.46, 130.58, 138.4, 146.6, 155.35, 164.4, 174.35, 184.82, 195.69, 207.46, 220
D: 146.8, 155.56, 164.75, 174.1, 184.61, 195.6, 207.2, 220, 232.8, 246.9, 261.5, 277.13, 293.6
G: 169, 207.81, 220.29, 233.05, 246.87, 261.63, 277.03, 293.43, 311, 329.49, 349.23, 369.84, 392
B: 247, 262.08, 277.25,293.86, 310.93, 329.69, 349.11, 369.67, 391.86, 414.74, 439.65, 466.31, 493.9
E: 329.6, 349.62, 37.38, 392.38, 415.31, 440, 466.03, 493.54, 523.07, 554.14, 586.68, 621.57, 659.3

Click to expand...

The .wav files by string (I had to truncate the D to fit under 15mb threshold to upload) if interested in duplication:

https://sndup.net/38bh
https://sndup.net/8gzmhttps://sndup.net/5x4m
https://sndup.net/4ttt
https://sndup.net/2rpz
https://sndup.net/7x9w

(good for 550 days)


In my next post I'll go over the #'s.

Let's take a look. Here's our reference point:



The basic thing to understand, and what many people get wrong, is the chart above is not about adherence to one specific frequency: it's about exact intervals between the set frequencies. Feel free to google if you're not familiar with intervals & what they mean.

So say we have an equally tempered "Fifth"

Take your E2, and your B2, fifths, so B2 @ 123.4708____ divided by E2 @ 82.4068____ you get 1.498etc, or 1.5 rounded.
Take another fifth, A5 @ 880 divided by D5 @ 587.3295_____ you get 1.498etc, or 1.5 rounded.

See a pattern? The space between the notes is tempered to be exact over the frequency range. So, if you change one frequency/note a little here, and another a little there that messes up a ton of intervals..not just the one note. Let's a take a look at how my guitar fared at the challenge:



So, this is a basic layout of the rounded off cents flat, sharp and true. Keep in mind this after a lot of effort to get the open strings & 12th fret in tune to the 10th's decimal place which is way tighter than the usual real world conditions.

Basically, in perfectly perfect tuning conditions it's not bad. But, no question there are deviations enough to skew intervals by as much as 3 to 6 cents off or more. And, as you move, slight adjustments aka "wonkiness" are always there between the pitches as they relate to each other. Under these conditions unless you've been a professional piano player you might never even notice the tiny bit of out tuneness. Remember, a "Cent" is 1/100ths of a semi-tone (half step) so 6 cents off an interval is not the end of the world.

So, how to address the little bit of wonkiness?

Answer: No way to do so without compensation at the fret, on THE SPECIFIC string if your goal is to true up all the pitches. As you see, the same fret can have one string flat a good bit while another string is true or sharp.

The problem with even attempting that? Well, so many factors go into the little bits of string distance to the saddle that your relief, string gauges & type, nut cut & action etc would have to be as exacting & consistent as the relief you might put into "wiggling" the frets. Thus, any tiny changes will change you out of true. Basically, at this level of tuning precision you're factoring in things like how accurate the fret slot is cut etc.....Kind of silly.



What about all the other tuning solutions out there?

As you can see, not all guitars have the same patterns of which pitches are true, flat, and sharp because of all the competing factors that go into it a la scale length, fret spacing, string size/type, like stated above. My example isn't how every guitar is going to look, but there's still good data to draw conclusions from.

Let's say we use compensation behind the nut slot to flatten/sharpen notes progressively as they come back from the first fret. Well, the off the shelf products aren't slotted for my guitar as most of them flatten the pitch on your low E/A strings aggressively at the first fret...my guitar is already flat there while my G note on the low E is true! You can extrapolate this to the other strings. And, a big thing is you have swings of 2, 3, & 4 cents at times from one fret to the next so any compensation isn't going to "unswing" those funky bits of wonkiness. It's going to stretch the whole tuning.

Now, take the method of sharpening or flattening strings on a normal guitar to compensate other parts of the board. Again, it's just compensation meant for personal enjoyment, not necessarily a fix. And, it really depends on if you want your open strings & 12th fret to be true.


The guitar:

At first, I had to make sure those areas where one fret distance jumped by 2 or more cents weren't effed up. Sure enough I took my fret rocker and there's no issues. The action at the nut is lower than the usual factory job but not crazy, the neck is straight with near no relief, no fret pitting, likely been leveled a time or two and still has the original frets. Pretty good for 50+ years old.

The "Real World:"

In reality, no one is tuning their guitar to the 10th decimal point for accuracy. So, imagine a string here a few cents flat and/or sharp then add that to the already existing contrast of the fret spacing being off-tune a hair. So, it's well in line to suggest that intervals 10-20cents off are often a reality. Those differences are more audible and in the norm, a few cents off is tough to hear depending on the interval/instrument/etc. So, the guitar just isn't that bad at the end of the day, audible wonkiness but not 1/4 step cat calls.

All this said, the only thing one needs to understand is that the math behind equal temperament is not the same math behind spacing frets to scale. That's it. It's a tiny bit off, in perfect tune hard to hear in real world tuning a little bit wonky.

deytookerjaabs, That was actually very interesting... :salude :salude :salude

duaneflowers said:

If you're having tuning issues it is most like a setup problem, not a design one. I've got quite a few Les Pauls and ALL of them stay in tune perfectly. I can even take one out of the case after a couple months and it is still in tune. So my advise would be to get a proper setup... :salude

Click to expand...

This is it!
I've been playing since 1957 and mostly Gibsons, and mostly Les Pauls.
Due to arm surgery 3+ years ago, I had to switch from 10's to 7-30 gauge strings and I had to develop my own gauges per string since no one makes sets that light.

I found on D'Addario's web site a Pro String Tension page and got all of my strings to have the same pound of pull per string.


All of my guitars including 3 CS LP's, two of which are recent R9's, all intonate perfectly and stay in tune all night, while playing in a rock band. Yes, the strings drift out of tune a couple of cents, but nothing serious at all, and are quickly fine-tuned again in seconds.

Also, and while I understand why some players do this, I still have the Kluson Deluxe tuners on my guitars as they came from the company, and they don't slip or have problems keeping the guitars in tune.
This is why I believe OP, you have a problem as stated in the quote above.

If this problem were wide-spread, Gibson would have corrected it.

Pretty much the fact and should close out this thread ,it was still fun to see you know who beat his hairy I'm always correct chest & don't counter my OPINION.......!!!!!

deytookerjaabs said:

Let's take a look. Here's our reference point:

The basic thing to understand, and what many people get wrong, is the chart above is not about adherence to one specific frequency: it's about exact intervals between the set frequencies. Feel free to google if you're not familiar with intervals & what they mean.

So say we have an equally tempered "Fifth"

Take your E2, and your B2, fifths, so B2 @ 123.4708____ divided by E2 @ 82.4068____ you get 1.498etc, or 1.5 rounded.
Take another fifth, A5 @ 880 divided by D5 @ 587.3295_____ you get 1.498etc, or 1.5 rounded.

See a pattern? The space between the notes is tempered to be exact over the frequency range. So, if you change one frequency/note a little here, and another a little there that messes up a ton of intervals..not just the one note. Let's a take a look at how my guitar fared at the challenge:

So, this is a basic layout of the rounded off cents flat, sharp and true. Keep in mind this after a lot of effort to get the open strings & 12th fret in tune to the 10th's decimal place which is way tighter than the usual real world conditions.

Basically, in perfectly perfect tuning conditions it's not bad. But, no question there are deviations enough to skew intervals by as much as 3 to 6 cents off or more. And, as you move, slight adjustments aka "wonkiness" are always there between the pitches as they relate to each other. Under these conditions unless you've been a professional piano player you might never even notice the tiny bit of out tuneness. Remember, a "Cent" is 1/100ths of a semi-tone (half step) so 6 cents off an interval is not the end of the world.

Click to expand...

Finally, someone who understands. Sorry, I am sure many here understand this already but in my circle of friends and musicians nobody gets this, After tuning a guitar with new strings on with any one of my Peterson tuners, people will start fiddling with the tuners.

Can't believe this thread is still alive... perhaps it should be renamed to "The 138 notes on a Les Paul can't all be intonated as perfectly as the 88 keys on a piano" for sanity/clarity's sake. :##

igloobob said:

I recently got into les pauls after playing strats for 20+ years and despite all the things I love about les pauls, the short scale really accentuates how out of tune guitars are. Every time I pick up a les paul I spend most of the time trying to tune the thing. All guitars have the same problem, but the short scale of the les paul makes it much more pronounced than a strat (or anything with 25.5 scale). I have a les paul that is otherwise a really gre4at guitar. Perfect tone, really low action, fit anf finish are perfect, etc How do you get used to this? Has anyone tried compensated nuts or have any advice on how to get these guitars to sound right? If your experience is just playing les pauls do you eventually just grow to like an out of tune guitar?

About compensated nuts, I can see how they would help with open strings, but how does a compensated nut help to keep fretted notes in tune?



P.S. If criticism of Les Pauls offends you then don't respond. I shouldn't have to say that, but internet forums tend to attract losers that do nothing but scour forums looking for reasons to be offended.

Click to expand...

First, make sure the nut is not too high. That is to make sure that open strings and the ones pressed down on the first fret are also in tune. Proper guitar tuner will do the trick. Next, tune accurately the open E- and B-strings. Now, play open B-string and high E-string on the 19th fret, which is B two octaves higher. If B on the E-string is a sharp, move bridge saddle to the right; if it`s flat move saddle to the left. Next tune G-string (make sure open B is still in tune) to pitch and press down B-string on the 20th fret to produce note G, which will be again two octaves higher than the open G ; then open D-string and G string on the 19th fret, open A and G-string on the 19th, open E and fretted A-string on the 19th. And finally press down low E on the 19th and compare it to open B string ( or E on the 15th fret and open G).
Usually people set the intonation on the 12th fret, but in my opinion it does not work with Les Pauls. Notes above 15th fret start to be increasingly sharp. After the setup, your tuner might show that the intonation is couple of cents flat on the 12th fret. This does not matter because human ear can not distinguish such a small difference in pitch (it can hear the difference of 5-6 cents). The good thing here is that this setup makes it possible to use stronger fretting hand for example on the 12th fret and still be in tune.
I hope this helps.

Jake

Thanks, Jake! I had to re-read your post several times but think I figured it out. I just the other day re-strung a Les Paul I purchased a few months ago after putting it off because it was just so spot-on, intonation wise. The strings were so dead I finally forced myself to change them.

I, too, have been using the '19th fret' intonation method for many, many years but opted to choose correct intonation on the 12th for those strings that made me choose one or the other (12th or 19th) because I tend to play in the middle of the fretboard a lot. However, after reviewing your thought process I will try holding to the correct tuning at the open string and 19th frets only, and ignore any flatness I see on the 12th fret. I must admit that having notes a bit sharp on the high frets irritates me more than anything else, so your advice sounds like something I needed to hear! Thanks!

igloobob said:

I hate to tell you, but if you can't hear how out of tune your les paul is then you've got a tin ear. NO guitar is in tune on every fret. EVERY fretted instrument has this design flaw. I can prove it-using a tuner tune your D string (or whatever string you prefer) until the tuning is perfect. Now fret the string on the first fret. Sharp, isn't it? Go up the neck fretting each fret and you'll notice that the tuning is all over the place. Sure, if you have high action the problem will be worse, but you can't lower the action enough to get rid of the problem. There's no setup that can eliminate the problem.

Click to expand...

All this time I thought it was a Tuner flaw. Anyone want to buy a used Tuner? I got plenty