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Jimmy Page Mod with 50s wiring

somebodyelseuk

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 10, 2020
Messages
454
Mr Beasty. How are you defining stronger pickup?
I understand that it's about a combination of coils, magnets, and i dare say pot loading, as well, but if we're just going off DC readings, my Yamahas are the opposite, and the pickups are not set at wildly differing heights. Or are we talking inductance, which if I understand correctly, is a function of coil and magnet, and a better indicator of pickup output... and measured in Henries ��
I'm not looking for a fight, I geniuely want educating.
Do you find different 'styles' of amp circuit enhance the effect? I'm thinking about the mid dip that occurs in some valve amps, that happens a certain frequencies for different circuits.
 
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mrbeasty

New member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
114
Mr Beasty. How are you defining stronger pickup?
I understand that it's about a combination of coils, magnets, and i dare say pot loading, as well, but if we're just going off DC readings, my Yamahas are the opposite, and the pickups are not set at wildly differing heights. Or are we talking inductance, which if I understand correctly, is a function of coil and magnet, and a better indicator of pickup output... and measured in Henries ��
I'm not looking for a fight, I geniuely want educating.
Do you find different 'styles' of amp circuit enhance the effect? I'm thinking about the mid dip that occurs in some valve amps, that happens a certain frequencies for different circuits.

No worries, it’s all good.
There is only one thing that truly matters for phase cancellations: the pickups have to be similar.
For example, if you had a PAF and a JB, they will never cancel out. No “Jimmy Page Chirp” would be possible. You could even flip one magnet and it still wouldn’t “Peter Green” for you because each pickup is focused on its own frequencies and resonance, the JB would always overpower the PAF and there would be no noticeable frequency cancellation.

Now, looking at two PAFs, I have always been able to find “the spot”: with a Gibson set, a Throwbak set, a Stephens, or a Cream T. Some ~0.7K apart, some near identical (~0.05k), some probably have different magnets but that seems to be a tolerable difference as the outputs are still relatively close.
 

mrbeasty

New member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
114
Mr Beasty. How are you defining stronger pickup?
I understand that it's about a combination of coils, magnets, and i dare say pot loading, as well, but if we're just going off DC readings, my Yamahas are the opposite, and the pickups are not set at wildly differing heights. Or are we talking inductance, which if I understand correctly, is a function of coil and magnet, and a better indicator of pickup output... and measured in Henries ��
I'm not looking for a fight, I geniuely want educating.
Do you find different 'styles' of amp circuit enhance the effect? I'm thinking about the mid dip that occurs in some valve amps, that happens a certain frequencies for different circuits.

No worries! 😄

It is about phase cancellation, which requires two (nearly) identical signals from the transducers.
So the individual specs of each pickup are irrelevant; what matters is that they be relatively identical to each other. If one is stronger (~16k) than the other (~7.5k) their frequencies are unlikely to superimpose and one will dominate the other. At that point they probably can only complement each other rather than cancelling out. If both are about the same (both ~16k, or both ~7.5k, or both “whatever”) then they should have a “phasy” spot on a Les Paul.
 

mrbeasty

New member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
114
Mr Beasty. How are you defining stronger pickup?
I understand that it's about a combination of coils, magnets, and i dare say pot loading, as well, but if we're just going off DC readings, my Yamahas are the opposite, and the pickups are not set at wildly differing heights. Or are we talking inductance, which if I understand correctly, is a function of coil and magnet, and a better indicator of pickup output... and measured in Henries ��
I'm not looking for a fight, I geniuely want educating.
Do you find different 'styles' of amp circuit enhance the effect? I'm thinking about the mid dip that occurs in some valve amps, that happens a certain frequencies for different circuits.

No worries! ��

It is about phase cancellation, which requires two (nearly) identical signals from the transducers in order to cancel-out. So the individual specs of each pickup are irrelevant; what matters is that they be relatively identical to each other. If one is stronger (~16k) than the other (~7.5k) their frequencies are unlikely to superimpose and one will dominate the other. At that point they probably can only complement each other rather than cancelling out. If both are about the same (both ~16k, or both ~7.5k, or both “whatever”) then they should have a “phasy” spot on a Les Paul.

If we take the Seymour Duncan SH-18 set as a point of reference:
Neck: 8.20k
Bridge: 8.80k
Magnet: Alnico 5

... or the Throbak PG-102 (the Zep tones set):
Neck: 8.2k
Bridge: 8.6K
Magnet: Alnico 5

Those are very hot for PAFs, but the same OOP effect would be true and effective if we had a 7.5K neck and 7.8k bridge; or 7.3k neck and 7.5k bridge; or even two 7.5k pickups.
Now, it still works, let’s say, a 8.5k neck and a 8.3k bridge; or a 7.8k neck and 7.3k bridge, but you have to lower the neck pickup a lot more to get its output the match the bridge’s. In my experience, too much difference (like 7.3k and 9k) makes it near impossible to find a cancellation spot, or you find a “weak” one where the stronger pickup still dominates a bit too much; or to get the right volume balance ruins one of the pickups’ solo sound (ie: great neck tone, good middle, weak bridge because set too low, etc.).
 
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El Gringo

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,657
No worries, it’s all good.
There is only one thing that truly matters for phase cancellations: the pickups have to be similar.
For example, if you had a PAF and a JB, they will never cancel out. No “Jimmy Page Chirp” would be possible. You could even flip one magnet and it still wouldn’t “Peter Green” for you because each pickup is focused on its own frequencies and resonance, the JB would always overpower the PAF and there would be no noticeable frequency cancellation.

Now, looking at two PAFs, I have always been able to find “the spot”: with a Gibson set, a Throwbak set, a Stephens, or a Cream T. Some ~0.7K apart, some near identical (~0.05k), some probably have different magnets but that seems to be a tolerable difference as the outputs are still relatively close.

Pretty wild that you mentioned ThroBak as I have the MXV-SLE-101 Plus with A5 Magnets loaded in all of my Les Paul's . The output on the bridge is 8.4k and the Neck is 7.8k .
 

Classicplayer

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2002
Messages
229
One of my two Les Pauls has a Duncan Seth Lover neck 7.2 and the bridge Seth is 8.2. Are they too
far apart in output to get that identifiable “quack” ala' Page's middle position tone? I have been told by a respected winder in the field, that one would have to have Jimmy's #1 Les Paul to get there. I'd be content with getting in the ballpark, so to speak.

It leads me to the question: What was Page's real middle position tone? Most people have only heard that recognizable sound via videos and recordings which are reproductions of the live sound and sometimes manipulated by a recording engineer. To really get what that tone is all about, I think I'd have to be privileged enough to stand in front of the man himself and hear it in person.


Classicplayer
 

El Gringo

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,657
One of my two Les Pauls has a Duncan Seth Lover neck 7.2 and the bridge Seth is 8.2. Are they too
far apart in output to get that identifiable “quack” ala' Page's middle position tone? I have been told by a respected winder in the field, that one would have to have Jimmy's #1 Les Paul to get there. I'd be content with getting in the ballpark, so to speak.

It leads me to the question: What was Page's real middle position tone? Most people have only heard that recognizable sound via videos and recordings which are reproductions of the live sound and sometimes manipulated by a recording engineer. To really get what that tone is all about, I think I'd have to be privileged enough to stand in front of the man himself and hear it in person.


Classicplayer

Well there is the Peter Green magnet flip on the neck pickup , along with reversing the neck pickup where the screw coil faces toward the bridge identical to the appearance of the bridge pickup where the screw coil on the bridge pickup is next to the ABR-1 Bridge .
 

mrbeasty

New member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
114
One of my two Les Pauls has a Duncan Seth Lover neck 7.2 and the bridge Seth is 8.2. Are they too
far apart in output to get that identifiable “quack” ala' Page's middle position tone? I have been told by a respected winder in the field, that one would have to have Jimmy's #1 Les Paul to get there. I'd be content with getting in the ballpark, so to speak.

Classicplayer

I think it is achievable.
Now because your neck pickup is not too hot, I would start there. Set it up loud and strong, then lower your bridge pickup fairly low and switch to the middle position. Play a reference riff that is known for that sound (IE: The Ocean) and slowly raise the bridge pickup until you get the right tone.

Try, let us know what happens!?

It leads me to the question: What was Page's real middle position tone? Most people have only heard that recognizable sound via videos and recordings which are reproductions of the live sound and sometimes manipulated by a recording engineer. To really get what that tone is all about, I think I'd have to be privileged enough to stand in front of the man himself and hear it in person.

Classicplayer

Page never had any phase switches, coil split, etc. until the very very end of Zeppelin or even the ‘80s.
IMHO Zeppelin tones were just the 3 positions switch and volume pot adjustments, into single channel amps played really loud.
 
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Classicplayer

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2002
Messages
229
Yes, Jimmy's Les Paul had some mods done to it in switching capabilities, post Zeppelin. I don't know at the time he recorded and performed “The Ocean” what bridge pickup was in his #1 Les Paul. That sound of he middle position tone on The Ocean (IMHO) was his concept of that thin middle position tone on a Telecaster. I believe he could get a smililar sound but with more volume and projection to it with a Marshall Super Lead and a Les Paul.

Classicplayer
 

mrbeasty

New member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
114
Yes, Jimmy's Les Paul had some mods done to it in switching capabilities, post Zeppelin. I don't know at the time he recorded and performed “The Ocean” what bridge pickup was in his #1 Les Paul. That sound of he middle position tone on The Ocean (IMHO) was his concept of that thin middle position tone on a Telecaster. I believe he could get a smililar sound but with more volume and projection to it with a Marshall Super Lead and a Les Paul.

Classicplayer

Try it ... it works with anything: clean, crunch or distorted; big amps and little amps.
 

Bulwark

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2019
Messages
52
Well there is the Peter Green magnet flip on the neck pickup , along with reversing the neck pickup where the screw coil faces toward the bridge identical to the appearance of the bridge pickup where the screw coil on the bridge pickup is next to the ABR-1 Bridge .

These are both great options!

The magnet flip allows one to retain the sound of the neck-only switch position (b/c when a pickup is on its own, it doesn’t matter which end is North or South), whereas the neck pickup rotation (screws to bridge / slugs to neck) changes the tone of the neck pickup on its own. The former is more work, arguably more reward; the latter is less work, arguably less desirable.

Decisions, decisions!
 
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