I can't hear a difference. Have Gibson nailed it?

Big Al said:

I have guitars that sound like the unplugged Burst, so don't tell me it can't be. I have found some that are indistinguishable when directly compared.

If one spends the time and finds a great guitar, instead of focusing on top figure or cosmetics, you'll have a great guitar.

Show me where all 57-60 paf Les Pauls sound the same. Hell, show me where all 59s do. I've been lucky through the years to have played many Bursts, side by side, and owned two. They do not sound the same. Many sound quite different, and no two random guitars, of any vintage sound the same.

Braz boards make no difference. Hardware bullshit claims started from overseas parts pirates haven't proven true. I've collect vintage hardware for 45 years for restorations. There is no magic tone.

I personally find these claims insulting, especially those hinting that I am unable to hear or descern the finer aspects of vintage tone. What I do know is most hear what they want to hear, or expect to.

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bross63 said:

First of all, I’m not a fan of the original video posted because I don’t feel the playing shows off either guitar particularly well, and there is too much talk and not enough playing.

That said, here are my thoughts on the validity of the new historic reissues coming out of the custom shop...

As with all guitars, no matter the brand, model, grade of model (custom shop, standard production, etc) there will always be those individual guitars that stand out (either positively or negatively) due to a combination of factors that all come together to make that guitar what it is. That is true of current production just as it was back in the ‘50s, ‘60s, etc.

There are individual instruments coming out of current production that stand out above the others, and I am fortunate to have one of them. The mahogany of the body has to be very dry because the whole guitar weighs only 8.2lbs. I also have a 1982 LP Custom silverburst that weighs well over 11lbs (and a 1970 es-335). My 2019 1960 Reissue is one of the most resonant guitars I’ve ever played. I can feel the whole body vibrating/resonating against my body as I play it, very much like my 335 feels, even though the LP is a solid body. It sings acoustically, and that translates directly to how it sounds plugged in as well. More on that to follow.

While Gibson has done a lot right and has continued to make improvements in the build of the historic reissues, including going to hide glue, using the most select of available mahogany blocks (lighter/drier), etc. there are still things that hold them back. Fortunately some of those things can be changed easily. The most significant (and thankfully easy to change) issue is the bridge, bridge posts, and thumbwheels. The bridge that comes on the current historic reissues produces an overly bright and brittle sounding tone that is also thin and lacking in balance across the frequency range. Interestingly, while it produces a very bright, thin sound when played acoustically, when amplified the highs die out almost immediately in the sustain leaving only lows and low-mids to continue through the sustain (especially noticeable when a chord is held and allowed to ring out). Based on the recommendation of Ed (EdA1 on YouTube), I got a Faber bridge (ABRH model, ordered from Corsa). I also ordered nickel plated brass abr1 bridge posts and the vintage thin version of nickel plated brass thumbwheels from Philadelphia Luthiers Supply. The change from the bridge alone was dramatic, both acoustically and amplified. The Faber bridge produces a much more full and balanced tone with smoother highs that balance nicely with the rest of the frequencies. When amplified the effect can be heard not only in the overall sound of the initial attack but also in the sustain. The high frequencies continue to ring out and persist as part of the sustained sound coming out of the guitar providing a far richer and more pleasant tone. I believe the persistence of the highs in the sustain also contribute to enhancing the richness and prominence of the overtones produced, especially when the pickups are capable of doing that. Adding the correct posts and thumbwheels added further to the overall resonance and also the balance and fullness of the tones produced by the guitar.

As for pickups, I believe the current production of Custombuckers that come in the historic reissues are very good. Being unpotted makes a big difference in them, and for many (most?) folks those pickups will serve them well and produce great tones and a wide range of them. That said, I put in a set of Amber Spirit of 59 pickups and gained additional overtones and clarity allowing me to bridge some of that remaining gap to the tones I want out of my LP. Last week I got a patent number pickup that I put in the neck position. Some of the differences compared to the Amber are more subtle and admittedly incremental as opposed to being apples to oranges. However the patent number has more clarity still and also richer and more complex overtones that sound more “organic” compared to the Ambers and Custombuckers.

Back to the importance of the guitar itself, what I find very interesting and revealing is that no matter what pickups I have in that guitar it still sounds like that guitar. Do I believe the pickups are an important part of the equation in achieving vintage sunburst like tones? Of course. However the pickups are completely irrelevant if the guitar isn’t right first. The guitar itself is largely responsible for the hollow, woody tones we associate with sunburst and PAF tones. Yet it’s not the PAFs that create that sound on their own - its the guitar and its resonance that are the foundation of that sound and allow the pickups to express their sound to the fullest of their potential. The best genuine PAFs in a crappy guitar won’t sound great, while a good set of pickups in a great guitar (with proper hardware) will sound far better. Put in a great set of pickups in a particularly outstanding guitar with correct hardware and those last few % that Mr. Bonamassa mentioned start to shrink even further.

In summary, based on my personal experience and after speaking with many others who have experience with genuine, vintage sunbursts, 1950s guitars converted to sunburst specs, earlier production as well as current production Gibson custom shop reissues, and high end third party sunburst replicas as well as experience with both genuine PAF and/or patent number pickups and current PAF replica/clone pickups tried in various guitars, my thoughts are...

1) There are a few sunbursts that stand out such as Bernie Marsden’s “the Beast”, Pat’s (of Doug and Pat) 1958 gold top “Oscar”, etc that are the ultimate pinnacle of tone most of us seek to achieve. But the average sunburst doesn’t sound like those best of the best. They may still sound fantastic, but we all need to keep in perspective the difficulty of trying to not only achieve true sunburst like tone in our guitars but the increased difficulty when our target/vision/goal is set based on the few standouts among a field of already outstanding guitars.

2) As stated above there are ok, good, great, and outstanding among current production guitars as well. The first step in trying to achieve sunburst like tones out of a current production guitar starts with the guitar itself. Hunt for and get the best one you can find. That will determine the success of the rest of your project/quest.

3) Put either genuine vintage hardware or the best available current production hardware made of accurate materials on your guitar. As mentioned the Faber bridge is a major game changer, and the posts and thumbwheels are an additional and important change (cost a set of posts and thumbwheels is less than $6). Without these changes there will be a limit to what can be achieved even with the best guitar.

4) Genuine PAFs or patent numbers are ideal of course, but there are some great pickups available from the better PAF replica/clone makers. I only have experience with Amber Spirit of 59, but I’ve heard directly from others that Rewind and Jim Rolph produce excellent pickups, and there is lots of support in general for Wizz, Throbak, etc. Get what you think is the best available and that you can afford, but only after the hardware has been swapped out on a very good guitar. Pickups are only a part of the equation and get too much attention when they are limited by the other factors.

5) When it all comes together and you find that magical combination of guitar, hardware, pickups, amp, etc. will it be “as good as” or sound like a real sunburst? Yes and no. Will it sound as good as the average sunburst? Maybe. Maybe even better than some sunbursts, if you are fortunate to have dialed in a particularly good combo/setup. Will it sound as good as the very best of the best sunbursts? Maybe, but unlikely. Anything is possible, but those guitars are the exceptional small % of all sunbursts as already stated. But one thing is for certain, the current production custom shop reissues as they come stock, even those that have the best wood and are great guitars don’t sound like genuine sunbursts. The average reissue definitely doesn’t.

All this is a pursuit that has captivated many of us and one that is fun to pursue, talk about, compare notes, and share with others. But it is a pursuit. Each of us has in our mind what the ideal LP sound is. There are varying degrees of “sickness” (aka the desire to achieve the “ultimate tone”) ha ha and also varying degrees of ability or willingness to commit the resources necessary to seeking out and acquiring the pieces to the puzzle. In the end what is most important is that we get something we like that plays and sounds how we like, and enjoy playing it - a lot.

Just my $0.02 of course. Others may have differing opinions and experiences.

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Minibucker said:

I have never played a real vintage 'Burst, but I have played a '64, a '61 and a Hardtail '54 Strat. And I can say unequivocally (albeit subjectively) that any new US Vintage Reissue Strats that I've owned didn't even come close to how nicely the real vintage ones played and sounded. Maybe one of the reasons I don't really play Strats any more.

But it wasn't so much a 'tone' thing, it was more like the older instruments just felt more settled and together as a system....like everything was really on sth same page and in tune in how the guitar felt and more importantly responded when playing. You felt like you didn't have to try as hared to play them and like what you were hearing, which just frees you up more. Warmer, richer, woodier...and you didn't have to guard against the high end, you had that snap at the ready when you wanted it....again with very little effort required. Pots, caps, even pickups or knobs, etc....whatever....as a whole/platform, just better instruments. And the reissues weren't what I would call pigs, either. If I switched the entire pick guard/wiring assembles between, say, the real '61 and my '63 Reissue...would my reissue sound as good as the real '63? I dunno, because it would probably still play like it did before the swap.

So maybe another 40-50 years of aging and playing will bring the reissues to the same place, but as many have pointed out in the past...much of the best music we associate with some of these original classic guitars were made when they were newer than many of the reissues we own today. Anyway, best way can describe what the vintage ones felt like...which were all owned and played regularly, so set up great....was that they felt more organically connected to me while I was playing them, so as a result they sounded better. And admittedly, a better player will probably get the reissue to sound better than me on my best day on a vintage guitar.

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somebodyelseuk said:

Believe it or not, I had that with a Levinson Blade R4, i bought in the early 90s. I've played plenty of old Fenders over years, none of which did it, but that Blade was so well... I dunno, engineered/executed?... it feels like it's part of you.

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GuitarMikey said:

Is the difference worth an extra 150-350k ?
Can the average person hear the difference listening at home or on their radio cruising down the highway?
That's up to each individual :hmm

I feel like in most cases it just comes down to bragging rights.

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bross63 said:

First of all, I’m not a fan of the original video posted because I don’t feel the playing shows off either guitar particularly well, and there is too much talk and not enough playing.

That said, here are my thoughts on the validity of the new historic reissues coming out of the custom shop...

As with all guitars, no matter the brand, model, grade of model (custom shop, standard production, etc) there will always be those individual guitars that stand out (either positively or negatively) due to a combination of factors that all come together to make that guitar what it is. That is true of current production just as it was back in the ‘50s, ‘60s, etc.

There are individual instruments coming out of current production that stand out above the others, and I am fortunate to have one of them. The mahogany of the body has to be very dry because the whole guitar weighs only 8.2lbs. I also have a 1982 LP Custom silverburst that weighs well over 11lbs (and a 1970 es-335). My 2019 1960 Reissue is one of the most resonant guitars I’ve ever played. I can feel the whole body vibrating/resonating against my body as I play it, very much like my 335 feels, even though the LP is a solid body. It sings acoustically, and that translates directly to how it sounds plugged in as well. More on that to follow.

While Gibson has done a lot right and has continued to make improvements in the build of the historic reissues, including going to hide glue, using the most select of available mahogany blocks (lighter/drier), etc. there are still things that hold them back. Fortunately some of those things can be changed easily. The most significant (and thankfully easy to change) issue is the bridge, bridge posts, and thumbwheels. The bridge that comes on the current historic reissues produces an overly bright and brittle sounding tone that is also thin and lacking in balance across the frequency range. Interestingly, while it produces a very bright, thin sound when played acoustically, when amplified the highs die out almost immediately in the sustain leaving only lows and low-mids to continue through the sustain (especially noticeable when a chord is held and allowed to ring out). Based on the recommendation of Ed (EdA1 on YouTube), I got a Faber bridge (ABRH model, ordered from Corsa). I also ordered nickel plated brass abr1 bridge posts and the vintage thin version of nickel plated brass thumbwheels from Philadelphia Luthiers Supply. The change from the bridge alone was dramatic, both acoustically and amplified. The Faber bridge produces a much more full and balanced tone with smoother highs that balance nicely with the rest of the frequencies. When amplified the effect can be heard not only in the overall sound of the initial attack but also in the sustain. The high frequencies continue to ring out and persist as part of the sustained sound coming out of the guitar providing a far richer and more pleasant tone. I believe the persistence of the highs in the sustain also contribute to enhancing the richness and prominence of the overtones produced, especially when the pickups are capable of doing that. Adding the correct posts and thumbwheels added further to the overall resonance and also the balance and fullness of the tones produced by the guitar.

As for pickups, I believe the current production of Custombuckers that come in the historic reissues are very good. Being unpotted makes a big difference in them, and for many (most?) folks those pickups will serve them well and produce great tones and a wide range of them. That said, I put in a set of Amber Spirit of 59 pickups and gained additional overtones and clarity allowing me to bridge some of that remaining gap to the tones I want out of my LP. Last week I got a patent number pickup that I put in the neck position. Some of the differences compared to the Amber are more subtle and admittedly incremental as opposed to being apples to oranges. However the patent number has more clarity still and also richer and more complex overtones that sound more “organic” compared to the Ambers and Custombuckers.

Back to the importance of the guitar itself, what I find very interesting and revealing is that no matter what pickups I have in that guitar it still sounds like that guitar. Do I believe the pickups are an important part of the equation in achieving vintage sunburst like tones? Of course. However the pickups are completely irrelevant if the guitar isn’t right first. The guitar itself is largely responsible for the hollow, woody tones we associate with sunburst and PAF tones. Yet it’s not the PAFs that create that sound on their own - its the guitar and its resonance that are the foundation of that sound and allow the pickups to express their sound to the fullest of their potential. The best genuine PAFs in a crappy guitar won’t sound great, while a good set of pickups in a great guitar (with proper hardware) will sound far better. Put in a great set of pickups in a particularly outstanding guitar with correct hardware and those last few % that Mr. Bonamassa mentioned start to shrink even further.

In summary, based on my personal experience and after speaking with many others who have experience with genuine, vintage sunbursts, 1950s guitars converted to sunburst specs, earlier production as well as current production Gibson custom shop reissues, and high end third party sunburst replicas as well as experience with both genuine PAF and/or patent number pickups and current PAF replica/clone pickups tried in various guitars, my thoughts are...

1) There are a few sunbursts that stand out such as Bernie Marsden’s “the Beast”, Pat’s (of Doug and Pat) 1958 gold top “Oscar”, etc that are the ultimate pinnacle of tone most of us seek to achieve. But the average sunburst doesn’t sound like those best of the best. They may still sound fantastic, but we all need to keep in perspective the difficulty of trying to not only achieve true sunburst like tone in our guitars but the increased difficulty when our target/vision/goal is set based on the few standouts among a field of already outstanding guitars.

2) As stated above there are ok, good, great, and outstanding among current production guitars as well. The first step in trying to achieve sunburst like tones out of a current production guitar starts with the guitar itself. Hunt for and get the best one you can find. That will determine the success of the rest of your project/quest.

3) Put either genuine vintage hardware or the best available current production hardware made of accurate materials on your guitar. As mentioned the Faber bridge is a major game changer, and the posts and thumbwheels are an additional and important change (cost a set of posts and thumbwheels is less than $6). Without these changes there will be a limit to what can be achieved even with the best guitar.

4) Genuine PAFs or patent numbers are ideal of course, but there are some great pickups available from the better PAF replica/clone makers. I only have experience with Amber Spirit of 59, but I’ve heard directly from others that Rewind and Jim Rolph produce excellent pickups, and there is lots of support in general for Wizz, Throbak, etc. Get what you think is the best available and that you can afford, but only after the hardware has been swapped out on a very good guitar. Pickups are only a part of the equation and get too much attention when they are limited by the other factors.

5) When it all comes together and you find that magical combination of guitar, hardware, pickups, amp, etc. will it be “as good as” or sound like a real sunburst? Yes and no. Will it sound as good as the average sunburst? Maybe. Maybe even better than some sunbursts, if you are fortunate to have dialed in a particularly good combo/setup. Will it sound as good as the very best of the best sunbursts? Maybe, but unlikely. Anything is possible, but those guitars are the exceptional small % of all sunbursts as already stated. But one thing is for certain, the current production custom shop reissues as they come stock, even those that have the best wood and are great guitars don’t sound like genuine sunbursts. The average reissue definitely doesn’t.

All this is a pursuit that has captivated many of us and one that is fun to pursue, talk about, compare notes, and share with others. But it is a pursuit. Each of us has in our mind what the ideal LP sound is. There are varying degrees of “sickness” (aka the desire to achieve the “ultimate tone”) ha ha and also varying degrees of ability or willingness to commit the resources necessary to seeking out and acquiring the pieces to the puzzle. In the end what is most important is that we get something we like that plays and sounds how we like, and enjoy playing it - a lot.

Just my $0.02 of course. Others may have differing opinions and experiences.

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agogetr said:

its 'the club' and that club gets you in with pro players and investors that all have direct contacts i

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Unbound Dot Neck said:

Minibucker nails it, until you have the real deal no RI comes close.
Period

Often imitated, never duplicated
:salude

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Minibucker said:

I have never played a real vintage 'Burst, ... And admittedly, a better player will probably get the reissue to sound better than me on my best day on a vintage guitar.

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brandtkronholm said:

Nailed what?

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brandtkronholm said:

Nailed what?

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brandtkronholm said:

Nailed what?

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rockabilly69 said:

Do you have any recordings of your guitar which reflect it's tonal qualities ?

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