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1958 Les Paul Junior Single-Cut Neck Joint Gap

marshall1987

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Jan 30, 2005
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3,278
I have a 1958 single-cut Les Paul Junior and always felt the design of the neck joint was a little peculiar.

For example, on these single-cut Juniors there is a small gap between the end of the neck and the rear of the body route (see photo). On my guitar the gap is about 1/8" wide. The result is the neck/body joint has glue surfaces on just two sides and the bottom. There is no glue surface at the butt end of the neck.

My guess is this design feature enabled the factory neck fitters to obtain the proper neck pitch during assembly. But if that is the case, why didn't they carry on with this feature on the double-cut Juniors? It just doesn't make sense. :dang




 
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deytookerjaabs

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Nov 6, 2016
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1,592
It's just room for fitment, that's my guess. Remember every heel was chiseled by hand so there'd always be some give to it, point being I think if you measure a bunch you'll find variance in that gap.

There was never really glue ends at the butt on any Gibson solid electrics off the top of my head. Even the double cuts where the heel goes in deeper the end of the heel has a gap, no?
 

buyusfear

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Oct 3, 2006
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2,951
My guess is this design feature enabled the factory neck fitters to obtain the proper neck pitch during assembly. But if that is the case, why didn't they carry on with this feature on the double-cut Juniors? It just doesn't make sense. :dang

The reason for the gap is quite simple; its the simplest way to deal with an almost right angle fingerboard edge sitting on a round cornered mortise.

That pocket, or mortise, cut into the body, is done with a round router bit, leaving round corners, on all Les Paul neck mortises, long or short tenon.
Because of the way the singlecut neck joint is done, with zero tenon hanging off the end of neck, unlike with a double cut junior, you have only the sharp corners of the fretboard edge, which you definitely don't want to round over or snub at 45 degree cuts like on long tenons or DC jr's.
normal_%237068_DSCN3496.JPG


Without adding the work of routing the neck mortise that 1/8th shorter, and then hand carving away those inside round corners to right angles, you get the Single Cut junior joint instead.

One added benefit over a perfectly fitting joint is that there is somewhere for any extra glue to go; which if left in with no place to spew out, can tweak the neck angle. This I know from personal first hand screw up, I mean experience. A reason I will always build this joint with that small 1/8th gap.
 

Tom Wittrock

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Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
1959

normal_%23923900_DSCN3499.JPG


1960

normal_%23_0-3669_DSCN3500.JPG


They aren't all this far apart, but there's usually a gap. :ganz
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
The reason for the gap is quite simple; its the simplest way to deal with an almost right angle fingerboard edge sitting on a round cornered mortise.

That pocket, or mortise, cut into the body, is done with a round router bit, leaving round corners, on all Les Paul neck mortises, long or short tenon.
Because of the way the singlecut neck joint is done, with zero tenon hanging off the end of neck, unlike with a double cut junior, you have only the sharp corners of the fretboard edge, which you definitely don't want to round over or snub at 45 degree cuts like on long tenons or DC jr's.
normal_%237068_DSCN3496.JPG


Without adding the work of routing the neck mortise that 1/8th shorter, and then hand carving away those inside round corners to right angles, you get the Single Cut junior joint instead.

One added benefit over a perfectly fitting joint is that there is somewhere for any extra glue to go; which if left in with no place to spew out, can tweak the neck angle. This I know from personal first hand screw up, I mean experience. A reason I will always build this joint with that small 1/8th gap.


And that's a photo of my 58. :)
 

DANELECTRO

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Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
6,318
The box glue joint of the SC Junior is 3-1/4" long, glued on two sides and the bottom.

The box joint of the DC neck is 2.75" long, glued on two sides and the bottom. The glued surface on the sides is slightly shorter in length due to the chamfered corners, so the DC neck actually has a smaller glue area than the SC neck joint.

The SC box joint is longer than the neck itself because the neck is square while the pocket has radii in the corners from the cutter. Something that they could have done to create a glue surface at the end of the neck would be to rout corner relief cuts something like the image below, however they probably just didn't think it would be necessary (which is really the truth).

XfZ2Sqk.jpg
 
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agogetr

Active member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
451
nice junior! i love love juniors. i have a 57 looks like yours..thin black around the edges. seems like the 54 and 55,s had more black around the edges? i love both looks .
in my clouded opinion a junior right now for 45 hundred bucks or 5 or whatever is a great value. not to mention the variances in pickups. you never know what magic lies in any given junior. well... its majic to me!
I have a 1958 single-cut Les Paul Junior and always felt the design of the neck joint was a little peculiar.

For example, on these single-cut Juniors there is a small gap between the end of the neck and the rear of the body route (see photo). On my guitar the gap is about 1/8" wide. The result is the neck/body joint has glue surfaces on just two sides and the bottom. There is no glue surface at the butt end of the neck.

My guess is this design feature enabled the factory neck fitters to obtain the proper neck pitch during assembly. But if that is the case, why didn't they carry on with this feature on the double-cut Juniors? It just doesn't make sense. :dang




 

agogetr

Active member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
451
hey tom was it the 60 that had the rythm pickup close to the neck? and the 59 was further back? when was the pickup close to the neck? my pal always told me to get the doublecut with the pickup away from the neck becasue it was a stronger neck body joining. ? my 59 special sets back from the neck
1959

normal_%23923900_DSCN3499.JPG


1960

normal_%23_0-3669_DSCN3500.JPG


They aren't all this far apart, but there's usually a gap. :ganz
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
hey tom was it the 60 that had the rythm pickup close to the neck? and the 59 was further back? when was the pickup close to the neck? my pal always told me to get the doublecut with the pickup away from the neck becasue it was a stronger neck body joining. ? my 59 special sets back from the neck

You're talking about Les Paul Specials, double cut. The first version had the pickup close to the end of the fingerboard, weakening the neck joint more than the later version with the neck pickup further back. Changed sometime in 1959 as I recall. :2cool
 

agogetr

Active member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
451
i had that backwards! i know also the knob configuration changed? one configuration had the toggle in the way?
You're talking about Les Paul Specials, double cut. The first version had the pickup close to the end of the fingerboard, weakening the neck joint more than the later version with the neck pickup further back. Changed sometime in 1959 as I recall. :2cool
 

DANELECTRO

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Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
6,318
Here are DC Special variations from 1959-1961

O15x0Ph.jpg



As if the '59 neck wasn't already weak enough, someone decided to remove additional wood:

59SpecialBasketCase1i.jpg



Here are a few creative solutions for repairing broken '59 necks:

2003_0516Image0016_zpsblnvrpv6.jpg


59SpecialBasketCase1b.jpg



"Stong enough to support a bridge? Its got to be strong enough for a guitar neck."
Turnbuckle_zpsktkmtd0g.jpg


59SpecialBasketCase2k.jpg


59SpecialBasketCase2i_zps5711be6a.jpg
 
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marshall1987

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Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
Just curious....on the later '59 and '60 DC Specials...what is the effect of moving the neck pickup away from the 22nd fret? Does this improve or degrade the tone of this pickup?
 
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