Chasing Burst Tone

Tom Wittrock said:

"Chasing Burst Tone"

I think it is a waste of time.
Find your tone, and keep on rockin'! :yah

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Si senor!


Like chasing the best cheeseburger.

You will never find it.

The best tone.

Is ephemeral.

Its like trying to grab candy from a baby.

As soon as you reach for it.

Its gone.

A little story time...

Back when I was a wee lad, working my rear behind off and saving some money, I dropped into Southworth Guitars, in DC. I wanted a 335 style guitar. Gil was kind enough to suggest I chase down an ES-340... So, I went home, saved up my pennies and headed back with cash in my pocket. I scored a beautiful 1968 ES-340 for 850 bucks. While test driving the soon to be mine guitar, I glanced to my left and saw a price tag on a Cherry Sunburst LP on the wall - 24k!

I asked Gil why the disparate price, he suggested I play it. I laughed, he got serious and basically shoved it into my hands. It played like butter. It sounded like angels. I literally couldn't hit a bad note. I was sitting there playing through some old tweed Fender, probably a 5e3, maybe a Super. It ruined me for all things Les Paul. Turns out, it was actually a 1957 refin. It had a small route fixed in the top and had that bright red cherry sunburst. I never really cared for bright red, but that guitar just felt right.

I didn't really go looking, but on occasion over the years, I would pick up some new Les Paul and be instantly disappointed. Not knowing much about the gear end of things, I just kinda kept looking. One day, almost 120 years after the fact, I stumbled upon a used '08 Traditional with 57/57+ pickups. Luckily for me, it was not a bright red burst, but a nice Iced Tea. Not very figured, just a little bit at just the right angle. I couldn't not buy it. It sounded right. It felt right. It reminded me instantly of that old '57. It was an awesome sounding and playing guitar, but it was a touch too heavy... 3 hour gigs with a bad back and a 10 lb guitar just taxed me too mucha nd I passed it on. But, I loved those 57 Classics so much, I picked up another pair that sound great. They do the PAF thing nicely.

However, when I went on a bit of a tone chase with one of my newer LPs, I hit up David Plummer at Zhangbucker. I sent him my preferences, a couple of youtube videos and described what I didn't like about the 490/4908 set in my Custom Lite. He waved his magic winder around and got me exactly what I was looking for. This guitar plays just like that '08 Traditional, and that old '57, but it weighs just a hair over 7 lbs. The voicing of this guitar is a little different than those two others. I wanted that bit of air, bit of rasp, bit of wheeze kinda thing. But, I also wanted just enough warmth on my neck pickup. Cool thing is, I'm playing through tweed amps these days. My #1 is a '58 Twin and the LP with that is like heaven again... The songs of angels.

Tom Wittrock said:

"Chasing Burst Tone"

I think it is a waste of time.
Find your tone, and keep on rockin'! :yah

Click to expand...

Thanks Tom for the words of wisdom! :salude

I've compared many excellent Custom Shop Reissue to 57-59 vintage Les Pauls and found them spot on. Many members here have had their Bursts cloned for the Collectors Choice models and most report the new guitars they received were bang on feel and tonewise. I put a lot, whole bunches in fact, of weight in their words. I did rather brief comparisons compared to them. THEY OWN THE ORIGINALS! They have so much time in which to compare and form conclusions that it beats listening to a video or even my brief one on one, side by side shootouts. One of these, whose opinion on this and most matters Burst I take very serious, has owned and brokerd many, many fabulous examples and had two CC Models done. I accept his verdict.

I did not hear an elusive, unobtainable tone on the clip. I hear the strong amp tone and the guitar. Mostly I hear the player. And the hard truth is that player will get that tone, regardless the guitar. Despite the inevitable denials to the contrary, most players who have this issue with gear need to look to their own ability and technique, mostly their lack of.

Yeah, yeah, I know. EVERYBODY has Rockstar chops, pro technique and in this case would sound just like the player in the clip. 'Swear t' god! Close your eyes and you'd think it's me!'

No, in my experience ability and technique rarely get their due. If you chase a specifc tone by a specfic player you must have that players touch. You better have the chops to cop the tone.

Big Al said:

I've compared many excellent Custom Shop Reissue to 57-59 vintage Les Pauls and found them spot on. Many members here have had their Bursts cloned for the Collectors Choice models and most report the new guitars they received were bang on feel and tonewise. I put a lot, whole bunches in fact, of weight in their words. I did rather brief comparisons compared to them. THEY OWN THE ORIGINALS! They have so much time in which to compare and form conclusions that it beats listening to a video or even my brief one on one, side by side shootouts. One of these, whose opinion on this and most matters Burst I take very serious, has owned and brokerd many, many fabulous examples and had two CC Models done. I accept his verdict.

I did not hear an elusive, unobtainable tone on the clip. I hear the strong amp tone and the guitar. Mostly I hear the player. And the hard truth is that player will get that tone, regardless the guitar. Despite the inevitable denials to the contrary, most players who have this issue with gear need to look to their own ability and technique, mostly their lack of.

Yeah, yeah, I know. EVERYBODY has Rockstar chops, pro technique and in this case would sound just like the player in the clip. 'Swear t' god! Close your eyes and you'd think it's me!'

No, in my experience ability and technique rarely get their due. If you chase a specifc tone by a specfic player you must have that players touch. You better have the chops to cop the tone.

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I love you and respect you as a forum poster.
Still, I have not heard the upper treble register in any of the reissues.
Maybe one, that I sold like a fucking asshole.

Please provide a reissue that sounds like an old one! (Clips)
You kinda cannot. As they all lack the "third sonic element"


Buddy Guy drinks his gasoline as we speak.
Vinyl baby!

c_wester said:

I love you and respect you as a forum poster.
Still, I have not heard the upper treble register in any of the reissues.
Maybe one, that I sold like a fucking dark storm.


Please provide a reissue that sounds like an old one! (Clips)
You kinda cannot. As they all lack the "third sonic element"


Buddy Guy drinks his gasoline as we speak.
Vinyl baby!

Click to expand...

There are two forum members with 50's LP's who came to Rochester to compare to my 2000 R9 that could not tell them apart. I won't name them but they can chime in.
Andy Babiuk and I compared the HOG's excellent Darkburst 1959 to a whole rack of R9's and found several that were near perfect clones, some we preferd and all with the flavour within the variations you find in large groups.

Most telling have been the variously well recorded blind listening tests, some posted here. My favourites are the J.D. Simo youtube demo's. Listen to him on a Burst or R9. I can't tell the difference!!


While finding an exact match to an exact guitar can be sometimes futile, in general, a well setup Reissue gets you there. I have found a high treble shift on some but in my case, I found using brass saddles well seated in the abr seems to be the biggest change I HAVE to make to get me in the Burst Tone Zone. Oddly enough, both my 99 and 00 with retainer wire abrs had that expansive, singing clear high end as is.

Of course many of us mod because we can, or to make a guitar fit our personal needs or ideals. All cool, but well seated brass saddles is the biggest factor, IMO. Also I spend a lot of time and effort, searching out my guitars. They must feel right and sound right, they look how they look, I am not a top hunter. A well chosen, well setup Reissue gets you there in my experience, live and recorded.

I could go on about proper use of the guitars controls and amp settings as from what I've seen and heard, most don't get right at all. I know you have quite extensive knowledge and chops so you get all that, but it sure ain't the norm anymore.

Also, brother, I'm a f'd up old man. I don't know what you're hearing, or what context. 7 major surgeries over 11 years at this point of my lifespan has pounded my 64 yr old ass in the dirt, not to mention the radiation, chemo's and drugs!! Maybe I'm unable to hear what you are hearing.

This is the best advise I can offer based upon whatever wisdom I've gained. If the Reissues you play don' match the Burst you are playing, first check the primary tone factors. You have to have similar primary tone. Not exact but similar. To fall back on old terminology, don't try to make a Biter into a Moaner.

You can adjust primary tone through setup and hardware. I've talked about the bridge, this is critcal. From studs to wheels, saddles and the bridge itself, on a well made RI this is most important for best tone. Primary tone is about build and hardware component/string coupling. String angles from TP have big effects on sustain, harmonic content and treble voice. Nut slots always need to be finished correctly.

After the Primary Tone is addressed the Secondary Tone is tackled. You know all that stuff and it has been much discussed. Pickup adjustment is critical. The rest we all know, except I disagree with the fondness for greater than 500k pots. A 480k pot sounds better too me than a 525k or higher pot.

Good answer as usual and you are probably correct.

Lost my mother to cancer this summer 63years old.
She was cleared about a year ago(Last christmas).

Took one week in June and gone. Worst Hallmark movie scene you ever saw.

Sorry to go of topic, I just kinda agree with you.


This sounds close to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awAEZwZfSbw

Tom Wittrock said:

"Chasing Burst Tone"

I think it is a waste of time.
Find your tone, and keep on rockin'! :yah

Click to expand...

You echo the wise words of Branford Marsalis: "Don't worry about that. Everybody talks about finding your voice. Do your homework and your voice will find you."

Big Al said:

Mostly I hear the player. And the hard truth is that player will get that tone, regardless the guitar.

Click to expand...

It bears repeating.

Strength and all the joy you can find, Al.

c_wester said:

Good answer as usual and you are probably correct.

Lost my mother to cancer this summer 63years old.
She was cleared about a year ago(Last christmas).

Took one week in June and gone. Worst Hallmark movie scene you ever saw.

Sorry to go of topic, I just kinda agree with you.


This sounds close to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awAEZwZfSbw

Click to expand...

I so sorry to learn of your loss. I do understand, though. My Mom lost her battle with Breast Cancer at the age of 34.
My battle has diminished me, in every way and I meant it when I said I may not be able to hear what you hear.

Love Mr. Simo. I so get it. I heard Burst Tone on there.

c_wester said:

Good answer as usual and you are probably correct.

Lost my mother to cancer this summer 63years old.
She was cleared about a year ago(Last christmas).

Took one week in June and gone. Worst Hallmark movie scene you ever saw.

Sorry to go of topic, I just kinda agree with you.


This sounds close to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awAEZwZfSbw

Click to expand...

I am so sorry about your mom , my condolences to you , may your moms memory be forever eternal !

Garincha said:

If you already have caps with the proper values, there is no point in sourcing old caps. PIO drys out over time and most of the caps from the 50s are basically trash by now. You will of course find a change in sound, because broken means they have drifted in value Moviebox very far. The change will be obvious, though not for the better I'm afraid. Old caps which are still working, are still in the guitars they came with. Old caps that are sold on Ebay are most likely nothing you would really want.

Regarding the installation of the Faber bridge: What do you mean by "tapping the hole"?

The biggest change in your situation will certainly be the pickups. I never heard of Sanford Magnetics. That doesn't mean anything though, since there are so many aftermarket pickups these days. There ist also many variations among the original PAFs either. They were wound on at least Moviebox pro four different machines and Gibson used five different magnets. So that leaves a lot room for quite some different flavours. And anybody has his own idea of a "perfect PAF sound".

So my recommendation would really be: Get in touch with one of the winders, sent them the link to the Youtube video and see what they will recommend. I did that with Jon Gundry and a very special guitar that I wanted to replicate and I couldn't be happier with the result.

But at the end of the day: Maybe it's just the guitar itself. You can't turn a guitar into something completely different. When the guitar just doesn't sound at least a bit in the ballpark, all aftermarket parts won't help.

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Thanks for your explantion.

c_wester said:

Lost my mother to cancer this summer 63years old.
She was cleared about a year ago(Last christmas).

Took one week in June and gone.

Click to expand...

Forget Les Paul tone.

There is no tone.

Like a mothers tone.

As a son with a mother still living.

From the beginning until now.

She is everything.

The rock of our family.

There is no one more important in my life.

God bless your mother and you!

I hope heaven holds a special place for her.

Let's elaborate calmly and reasonably the context of this 50+ years old (non?) issue.

The market/industry/world of electric guitar exists 50+ years already without 'that tone of Bursts' being ever replicated. Now let's all imagine what happens in this world of ours on the day when we wake up in the morning and suddenly all the reissues and replicas DO have that Burst tone, AND ALSO even new guitars below $1000 or even below $500 have a tone really very close to original '52-'60 LP guitars.

Pretty much nothing big will/can happen. The reason is simple. General population on average cannot recognize that tone due to insufficient hearing ability for the task at hand. Not even all the musicians back in late '60s when myth started were able to recognize it. Those who can recognize 'that tone' will surely obtain it in no time at all.

Now consider, how big is the percentage of market /people who can hear it i - 5%, 10% of all the people spending money=generating profit on guitar related products (count the responses in this thread and calculate)? Will it cause the cost of originals to drop? Will myth of unatainable vintage tone be put to rest? It is likely vintage market will drop some, but how much, or better how small will be that drop? Now, will the industry of amps, pickups, pedals built on 'chasing Burst tone' drop also? Now that can be a significant drop.

To perform that change - do bear in mind that it is absolutely a trivial task from technical standpoint (elementary physics) and it would also cost close to nothing, so technically and financially getting 'that Burst tone' is a very definition of a non-issue. The reason why it has not been performed at any point during all these decades and millions of guitars made and sold since 1968, why those (and they simply must exist) who already found out the cause=the resolution of the myth but never made a PSA or a product to make profit, is dead simple :

- no one can earn money on it because only a small percentage of people can hear it clearly and recognize it
- some will 'lose' money if the vintage market (value of vintage guitars amps pickups) drop because myth has been put to rest

Hey - even forums (like this forum of ours) would suffer some drop in traffic. Overall, there is no obvious big financial gain and there is a very likely financial loss as a result of the effort. Hence, why on Earth do it at all? Guitar related industry is doing just fine exactly the way it has been doing all these decades. Why making commotion to make no one richer and make some poorer? It is all about money and nothing but money since mid '60s when we 'lost' that tone/timbre. And we lost it due to making all the money/profit possible 'at any cost' in the first place, even at the cost of tone of these music instruments, in this particular case. That is what you get by turning everything into business. And all humans (think they) need the money to compensate ... whatever. And there is not enough money for all that 'needs' to be compensated.

Dead simple. Case closed. Keep on rockin' your guitars. And chasing Burst tone. Or not chasing it. All's good.

Years ago.

I went fly fishing for tarpon.

Marathon Florida.

Albert Ponzoa was my guide.

He put me on several 'poons.

But I failed as an angler.

And then.

One ate.

It was 135 pounds of 220v swimming and flying pinball machine.

For about 45 minutes.

Albert grabbed the leader and thus landed it.

And set it free.

I dang near had a heart attack.

And my hands and knees shook for over an hour after.

I have never felt more alive in my entire life.

It was an emotional experience.

And had to stop myself from crying out loud like a baby.

THAT.

IS.

TONE!


But I have to say.

I have an R4.

That reminds me of that day.

It has a couple spots on the neck.

Note bloom.

Like a tarpon on 220v.

And sends shivers down my backbone.

When I hear and feel it.

No.

It ain't a burst.

But it doesn't have to be.

Mumbo jumbo from fantasy land. Long dull smug self inflating posts and pronouncements about the oh so special 5 per centers not withstanding, I never waste my time opining on my inability to cop someone elses tone. I put my 10,000 hrs in and just get it done. I found so called "Burst Tone" over 40 yrs ago with my first two 59 Bursts. Still get it even though they were sold years ago. All this pie in the sky, they just can't make that super duper oh so elusive magical mystery sound of angels bells on heavens choir 1959 Burst Tone.

Well, they do. Been done, old news, no super secret sauce, no conspiracy to deny. Just unrealistic expectations by some who expect a button or switch on a box or any magic gear that will suddenly transform their underwhelming playing or tone into some imagined ideal.

I don't look for others tone in gear. I find the best each piece offers and use it to my taste. I've always been able to squeeze the most from any piece of gear by applying my considerable experience and using my ears. I'm most interested in scratching my own itch, but I can easily clone vintage or classic Burst Tones by most all the "Masters" with my modern Les Pauls and amps, and I have done it one on one, side by side, A/B my R9s to vintage Bursts, so that whole 5% thing don't play.

I have good ears and made a good life from them. I hear lots of things. Mostly I hear excuses and justifications for an inability to properly use gear or their own fingers and ears.

Al,you rock like a motherfucker and always have. Fat respect from me dude. I'm an old bastard too and never really cared about what some of the people call Burst Tone. I own different models of Gibson Les Paul guitars and like each one of them.

Full disclosure and all .... over the past 40 years or so I have become a Norlin/P90 freak. Add a Bigsby and that becomes NorlinBigsbyP90Freak Squared! :dude: :yah:hee

That's who I am - perfectly happy with that.

EDIT --- I most certainly do like the sound of a Burst,just not as much as I like a nasty single coil

SpencerD said:

Al,you rock like a motherfucker and always have. Fat respect from me dude. I'm an old bastard too and never really cared about what some of the people call Burst Tone. I own different models of Gibson Les Paul guitars and like each one of them.

Full disclosure and all .... over the past 40 years or so I have become a Norlin/P90 freak. Add a Bigsby and that becomes BigsbyP90Freak Squared! :dude: :yah:hee

That's who I am - perfectly happy with that.

EDIT --- I most certainly do like the sound of a Burst,just not as much as I like a nasty single coil

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Thats my fetish!

Texas Blues said:

Thats my fetish!

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Dig! :dude::yaheace2

Um, never mind. Forget I asked. They should rename this forum the Baby Boomer Cringe Club.

danieldoranie said:

Um, never mind. Forget I asked. They should rename this forum the Baby Boomer Cringe Club.

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What's wrong with you? You received plenty of helpful answers in this thread. The most important being: learn to play.
If this place makes you cringe, then I suggest you do just that, go back to your room and practice.
:bigal