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Help with Intonation

Highroller

New member
Joined
Sep 30, 2016
Messages
12
Hello,

Last week I picked up a new 50's Standard Goldtop. First new guitar in 15 years. Anyway I was a happy camper until I started to set the guitar up to my liking. First issue was Gibson had the neck straight as an arrow, truss rod way to tight. Backing it off little by little, I was waiting for some relief in the neck but that never happened, even with the truss rod nut totally loose, no relief at all, Bummer! I place a one inch wood dowel rod at the 12th fret and strung the strings over it and tuned it up to 440. I let it set in the case overnight and bingo! Relief in the neck, about a half turn on the truss rod placed the neck about perfect, but that's at 440 I tune down a half step. Didn't have an issue after I tuned down, another tweak to the truss rod and again bingo right where I wanted it.

Now that the neck was set, I continued onto the action and noticed the high E side of the bridge is bottomed out, action seems ok but if you ever wanted to go lower you can't. The low E side has plenty of adjustment, up or down. Checked the nut and bridge saddle cuts and string spacing everything seems good. Set the pickup height to what I like. I slapped on a new set of Diaddario XL110's, put it back in the case a let it set overnight.

Proceeded to do another string stretch and tuned up to 1/2 step down. While setting the intonation, checking it multiple times over a day and a half, this is what I've run into. High E, B, D and A strings intonate around the middle of the ABR1 bridge but the G and low E are maxed out with the saddles flipped to the rear of the bridge and both strings are still sharp.

I've checked everything, I can think of and everything seems right, but still no way to move the saddles to properly lengthen the G and Low E.

Any help would be appreciated before I take it back for an exchange, still have two weeks.

Thanks

Tony
 

poor man's burst

Active member
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
421
The lower the gauge and the lower the tension (and the high the action), the more you need to compensate in order to have the guitar intonate correctly.
The Les Paul (as well as the other solid-body electric guitars) were designed at a time where the gauge available were light, medium and heavy, light being 12-54, and therefor, the bridge placed accordingly . Which explains why you cannot set up your guitar with 10-46 tuned a step down.
I doubt you will find another Tune-o-matic bridge '50 Les Paul that would intonate better.
You may have more luck with a wrap-around bridge Les Paul, with the bridge replaced with an adjustable aftermarket wraparound bridge like a Tone Pro or PRS.
Using a higher gauge (11-49 or 11-52) may help to a certain point.
 

Highroller

New member
Joined
Sep 30, 2016
Messages
12
The lower the gauge and the lower the tension (and the high the action), the more you need to compensate in order to have the guitar intonate correctly.
The Les Paul (as well as the other solid-body electric guitars) were designed at a time where the gauge available were light, medium and heavy, light being 12-54, and therefor, the bridge placed accordingly . Which explains why you cannot set up your guitar with 10-46 tuned a step down.
I doubt you will find another Tune-o-matic bridge '50 Les Paul that would intonate better.
You may have more luck with a wrap-around bridge Les Paul, with the bridge replaced with an adjustable aftermarket wraparound bridge like a Tone Pro or PRS.
Using a higher gauge (11-49 or 11-52) may help to a certain point.

Everything you said makes sense. But, even though this is actually my first guitar in 15 years, I played only Les Pauls for 35 years before this, now I'm showing my age. When I was old enough to understand the mechanics of the guitar and started singing I came up with tuning a half step down to help my vocal range. In my early years I used 9 thur 42 Ernie Ball Slinkys and somewhere due to better stability I switched to 10 thur 46 strings. This was in my Jr high school years.

I learned setup from watching people at shops I used to frequently hang out at, Bill Felds, Mike tobias, and the guy that worked on Hank Garlands (Gibson Byrdland Fame) guitars, I dated his granddaughter or niece, don't remember which. This was after his near fatal car accident, but he could still play, somewhat. I've owned more Les Pauls than I can count, some good, some bad and a couple that I considered great. As far as I can remember, I never had an issue with intonation issues tuning a half step down, until this one. Like I said, everything you said makes sense but really does jive with my experience.

After doing a lot of measuring, I think the neck set on this particular guitar is a little off. After working on this guitar, it's all becoming clear. High E side of the bridge adjustment bottomed out lowest it will go from the factory. The neck setup as straight as it could be from the factory, allowing intonation shift, to the center of the bridge. I thought it was me (weak hands) but without tweaking the setup, the guitar plays stiff as h%ll with the factory setup.

Thank you for your kind explanation and experience. I think this ones going back!
 

rick c

Active member
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
282
A few observations/concerns: For reference, my 87 Custom has at least 5mm of exposed pin at both ends under the bridge; my bridge is 5mm higher than yours at the top E assuming the basic Tun-o-Matic dimensions are identical. For your high E end of the bridge to be bottomed out with light relief and 3 or 4/64" of action at the 12th fret, the neck set angle must be way too shallow; your pickups must be all the way down otherwise they'd be touching the strings. Can you send some pictures?

As for string gauges; I've used 008 to 038 on my LP forever (bought this new, also showing my age) and even ran on 007s for a few years. I have plenty of forward/backward intonation adjustment space on my bridge and never had intonation issues. If your neck set is too shallow and the bridge is correctly positioned then the distance between the frets and the bridge will be shorter than it's supposed to be and so theoretically you would run out of intonation movement due to the shorter scale length but I'd expect the saddles to be bunched up at the backside of the bridge.

Some numbers for reference:
- My LP top E string from nut to saddle support point measures 62.4mm with an EB 008" string. The height of the top E from the guitar body to saddle is exactly 18mm. My action is 3/64" at the 12th fret. This is a really quick and easy comparison between our guitars; my bridge is 5mm higher than yours! I'd expect you to measure 13mm from body to saddle top.
- My ES-335 top E string measures 62.1mm with an EB 009" string.
- There's at least 2mm of extra forward (pickup direction) movement left for the saddles in both cases.

Another concern is the fact that there's no movement left for intonation at the top E but plenty at the low E. I set 3/64"at the top and 5/64" at the bottom for 12th fret action; with these settings my bridge top and bottom end heights are very close; this is why there's roughly 5mm of downward adjustment left at both ends of the bridge on my guitar. This worries me that your neck may also be slightly twisted with the top string side lower than the low string side. Hold the guitar from the bottom and look up the neck from bridge to nut; if there's a twist it should be obvious.

There's no fix for this. I'd take the guitar back and get another. The problem with the lack of neck relief at the start would have been enough for me.

Good luck.
 

Highroller

New member
Joined
Sep 30, 2016
Messages
12
A few observations/concerns: For reference, my 87 Custom has at least 5mm of exposed pin at both ends under the bridge; my bridge is 5mm higher than yours at the top E assuming the basic Tun-o-Matic dimensions are identical. For your high E end of the bridge to be bottomed out with light relief and 3 or 4/64" of action at the 12th fret, the neck set angle must be way too shallow; your pickups must be all the way down otherwise they'd be touching the strings. Can you send some pictures?

As for string gauges; I've used 008 to 038 on my LP forever (bought this new, also showing my age) and even ran on 007s for a few years. I have plenty of forward/backward intonation adjustment space on my bridge and never had intonation issues. If your neck set is too shallow and the bridge is correctly positioned then the distance between the frets and the bridge will be shorter than it's supposed to be and so theoretically you would run out of intonation movement due to the shorter scale length but I'd expect the saddles to be bunched up at the backside of the bridge.

Some numbers for reference:
- My LP top E string from nut to saddle support point measures 62.4mm with an EB 008" string. The height of the top E from the guitar body to saddle is exactly 18mm. My action is 3/64" at the 12th fret. This is a really quick and easy comparison between our guitars; my bridge is 5mm higher than yours! I'd expect you to measure 13mm from body to saddle top.
- My ES-335 top E string measures 62.1mm with an EB 009" string.
- There's at least 2mm of extra forward (pickup direction) movement left for the saddles in both cases.

Another concern is the fact that there's no movement left for intonation at the top E but plenty at the low E. I set 3/64"at the top and 5/64" at the bottom for 12th fret action; with these settings my bridge top and bottom end heights are very close; this is why there's roughly 5mm of downward adjustment left at both ends of the bridge on my guitar. This worries me that your neck may also be slightly twisted with the top string side lower than the low string side. Hold the guitar from the bottom and look up the neck from bridge to nut; if there's a twist it should be obvious.

There's no fix for this. I'd take the guitar back and get another. The problem with the lack of neck relief at the start would have been enough for me.

Good luck.

Thank you for your reply and your experience. I took it back and I agree the neck set is a little off and once relief was added there was a small twist. The one thing that really upsets me is, They had 8 2019 les pauls on the wall, I went through them one at a time and low and behold everyone of them has the very same issue, the high e side of the bridge is bottomed out on the inserts. They have ZERO down adjustment. That's was the 50's 60's and classics. I was about to ask for a refund since there was nothing I wanted. The manager said hold on a minute and went into the back and came out with what I thought was another new Les Paul but no, it was a near mint 2014 Traditional 120 anniversary in Ice Tea burst with Ox Blood back and neck, very limited factory run, 120 anniversary inlaid at the 12th fret and it played outstanding, The bridge was in the lower mid of its travel, the neck setup was the best you would want, even though the pickups have been changed to Dimarzio double cremes it looked and sounding great. So I walked out with it along with a $600.00 refund. Not bad for a 140 mile drive. I'm now a happy camper. OUTSTANDING Customer service from Sam Ash Columbus Ohio!!!!!! Gibson needs to get their act together, all their new guitars with their improved QA ain't making it!!!
 

Arnold M.

Active member
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
296
Thank you for your reply and your experience. I took it back and I agree the neck set is a little off and once relief was added there was a small twist. The one thing that really upsets me is, They had 8 2019 les pauls on the wall, I went through them one at a time and low and behold everyone of them has the very same issue, the high e side of the bridge is bottomed out on the inserts. They have ZERO down adjustment. That's was the 50's 60's and classics. I was about to ask for a refund since there was nothing I wanted. The manager said hold on a minute and went into the back and came out with what I thought was another new Les Paul but no, it was a near mint 2014 Traditional 120 anniversary in Ice Tea burst with Ox Blood back and neck, very limited factory run, 120 anniversary inlaid at the 12th fret and it played outstanding, The bridge was in the lower mid of its travel, the neck setup was the best you would want, even though the pickups have been changed to Dimarzio double cremes it looked and sounding great. So I walked out with it along with a $600.00 refund. Not bad for a 140 mile drive. I'm now a happy camper. OUTSTANDING Customer service from Sam Ash Columbus Ohio!!!!!! Gibson needs to get their act together, all their new guitars with their improved QA ain't making it!!!

you went through 8 2019 Les Pauls on the wall and everyone of them had the same issue?? I find situations like this very disturbing, every time I consider purchasing another Gibson stories such as this snap me back into the real world, fast ... sounds like a very serious QA issue .... I thought this was the New Gibson?, the For The People Gibson? ... sounds more like the old Gibson ... plus the silence from Gibson itself on issues such as this only adds to the consumer frustration ... I love my Gibson guitar ... but shenanigans like this get customers running ... in the opposite direction
 
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