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  1. #41
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner Tom Wittrock's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    How so, Tom? Peter is clearly trying to do his best Eric copy. Where does he take it further? Supernatural is the only cut that steps out of the direct Eric mold, and though sustain and gobs of reverb within Claptons tone blueprint might seem novel, it hardly raises the bar.
    Just my personal impression from listening to both. Peter inspires me more. Especially from the live recordings of Peter in the Bluesbreakers.
    Supernatural is also something I can't imagine Clapton writing or "coming up with" at the time. Peter played a lot of solos that are more unique and to me, more inventive.
    They're both fantastic. Clapton at his best maybe? I absolutely love both. But in that band, I think Peter took Clapton's place and stepped it up.
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  2. #42
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    There has been more of PG's playing come to light over the years with the Bluesbreakers (live performances etc) than Eric's work at the time, but if you take the albums that they played on while with Mayall they both display great playing but different styles, individual styles. Is one BETTER than the other, that's up to each of us to decide what we like best.
    For me, it's when Peter left the BBs and formed Fleetwood Mac that he did some great tunes while Eric was breaking new ground with Cream......... both different, tasty and innovative expansions on the Blues theme.......sublime playing and singing in most cases.

  3. #43
    Les Paul Forum Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wittrock View Post
    Just my personal impression from listening to both. Peter inspires me more. Especially from the live recordings of Peter in the Bluesbreakers.
    Supernatural is also something I can't imagine Clapton writing or "coming up with" at the time. Peter played a lot of solos that are more unique and to me, more inventive.
    They're both fantastic. Clapton at his best maybe? I absolutely love both. But in that band, I think Peter took Clapton's place and stepped it up.
    Oh, I love them both as well, Tom. Strictly talking Bluesbreakers I prefer Clapton. Just compare te Freddie songs. It's clear that Peter was trying hard to be like Eric. Except for Supernatural, which I agree is more Peter's thing. Taking Eric's overdriven tone and use of feedback adding cranked to the max reverb and going nowhere but to bore 'em sleepyville.

    I find most of Peters tone bland compared to Beano and WTF is up with that mix?? Peters tone is thin, buried in most of the songs and there is Waaaaaayyy to much freakin' reverb on everything. Beano simply sounds better. On the few songs where Peters guitar is stronger in the mix, he sounds like an over rehearsed Clapton, with little to boldly state, "Here I am. Check ME out!"!!! So please tell me which songs show him outplaying Clapton? 'Cause I don't hear it.

    It's always preference. I have all the Clapton, Greene and Taylor discs and listen often. My favourite player is Clapton. He was Steppin' Out! His is the example followed and he set the template. I've always felt Peter came into his own with the Mac, not Mayall.
    Last edited by Big Al; 09-01-19 at 08:47 PM.
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  4. #44

    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Clapton or Green?

    Maybe i'll just combine both of them, add some steroids, and.....voilŠ!!... We get the GOAT: Mr. Robert William Gary Moore.

  5. #45
    Les Paul Forum Member au_rick's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by AA00475Bassman View Post
    What years did they play in the Blues Breakers ?
    LOL, the posts had gone well off topic before I threw that in but if we're talking about Bluesbreakers, then Clapton, hands down for me.
    Last edited by au_rick; 09-02-19 at 09:28 PM.
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  6. #46
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?


    I don’t find PGs early tone thin or slathered in Reverb. His style and note choice is more exploratory with an almost “dreamy” quality for lack of a better word than Clapton’s whose more straight ahead blues was aggressive and in your face in a way Peter’s was not.

    It seems silly to argue better. There are no objectively quantifiable metrics which allow us to determine who is better, there’s just our perceptions, opinions and appreciation of each artist‘s undeniable talent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    Oh, I love them both as well, Tom. Strictly talking Bluesbreakers I prefer Clapton. Just compare te Freddie songs. It's clear that Peter was trying hard to be like Eric. Except for Supernatural, which I agree is more Peter's thing. Taking Eric's overdriven tone and use of feedback adding cranked to the max reverb and going nowhere but to bore 'em sleepyville.

    I find most of Peters tone bland compared to Beano and WTF is up with that mix?? Peters tone is thin, buried in most of the songs and there is Waaaaaayyy to much freakin' reverb on everything. Beano simply sounds better. On the few songs where Peters guitar is stronger in the mix, he sounds like an over rehearsed Clapton, with little to boldly state, "Here I am. Check ME out!"!!! So please tell me which songs show him outplaying Clapton? 'Cause I don't hear it.

    It's always preference. I have all the Clapton, Greene and Taylor discs and listen often. My favourite player is Clapton. He was Steppin' Out! His is the example followed and he set the template. I've always felt Peter came into his own with the Mac, not Mayall.

  7. #47
    Les Paul Forum Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post

    I don’t find PGs early tone thin or slathered in Reverb. His style and note choice is more exploratory with an almost “dreamy” quality for lack of a better word than Clapton’s whose more straight ahead blues was aggressive and in your face in a way Peter’s was not.

    It seems silly to argue better. There are no objectively quantifiable metrics which allow us to determine who is better, there’s just our perceptions, opinions and appreciation of each artist‘s undeniable talent.
    Just my opinion, but I listen to both alot. The whole Hard Road CD/LP is drenched in spring reverb. It's as if the studio just got one and couldn't resist. Johns vocals and Peter's guitar, (when it is more prominent in the mix), are especially doused in sauce. Are you saying it's not??

    The cuts that do not have a prominent guitar mix have a thin, plinky tone. It sounds to me as if Peters amp is turned way down as their appears to be little bleed and it doesn't appear as isolated and mixed down at the board.

    You say dreamy. I say sterile and over rehearsed. Certainly nothing exciting, thrilling or especially noteworthy when compared to Beano. Cuts like "You Don't Love Me", are good example of this.

    Where Peter is allowed to crank up the amp, he gets a more muscular Beano tone, [with added reverb], and does a decent Clapton impression. His best, imo, is on Freddy Kings "Stumble", and as good as it is, it fails to exceed Claptons previous work on Beano. Dreamy is apt for "Supernatural" and is the only cut that is undeniably original and unique to him. The reverb suits it and it certainly is dreamy. So much so, in fact, it's like a lullaby.

    Besides that, which cuts show this dreamy note choice or playing that is superior to Beano?

    I am only comparing BEANO to HARD ROAD if you want to start comparing live stuff from 67 maybe compare that to CREAM.

    As I've said I love Greeney's playing. His work with Fleetwood Mac forever changed me as a musician and is just brilliant. Though enjoyable, I never found his playing or the Hard Road album better or preferable to Beano. I've recently listened to both to see if I was missing something, I wasn't. I guess it's just individual preference.
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  8. #48
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    Just my opinion, but I listen to both alot. The whole Hard Road CD/LP is drenched in spring reverb. It's as if the studio just got one and couldn't resist. Johns vocals and Peter's guitar, (when it is more prominent in the mix), are especially doused in sauce. Are you saying it's not??

    The cuts that do not have a prominent guitar mix have a thin, plinky tone. It sounds to me as if Peters amp is turned way down as their appears to be little bleed and it doesn't appear as isolated and mixed down at the board.

    You say dreamy. I say sterile and over rehearsed. Certainly nothing exciting, thrilling or especially noteworthy when compared to Beano. Cuts like "You Don't Love Me", are good example of this.

    Where Peter is allowed to crank up the amp, he gets a more muscular Beano tone, [with added reverb], and does a decent Clapton impression. His best, imo, is on Freddy Kings "Stumble", and as good as it is, it fails to exceed Claptons previous work on Beano. Dreamy is apt for "Supernatural" and is the only cut that is undeniably original and unique to him. The reverb suits it and it certainly is dreamy. So much so, in fact, it's like a lullaby.

    Besides that, which cuts show this dreamy note choice or playing that is superior to Beano?

    I am only comparing BEANO to HARD ROAD if you want to start comparing live stuff from 67 maybe compare that to CREAM.

    As I've said I love Greeney's playing. His work with Fleetwood Mac forever changed me as a musician and is just brilliant. Though enjoyable, I never found his playing or the Hard Road album better or preferable to Beano. I've recently listened to both to see if I was missing something, I wasn't. I guess it's just individual preference.
    I will likely always prefer PG to EC but I think we can agree it is individual preference.

    With regard to spring Reverb, It sounds to me that most of those cuts were recorded live, with the natural reverb Of the venue. Given the quality, the production seems minimal. Unless it was recorded direct to the FOH desk which I doubt, who would add spring reverb to an already wet recording . Take the first track. I hear a lot of room ambience, the guitar is mixed pretty prominently, the vocals on the other hand are recessed and muddled almost as if they mixed in too much room sound to the direct vocal sound. But who knows I don’t have the liner sheets or production notes of those tracks. I think Beano is a much better produced album but that has nothing to do with Spring reverb.

  9. #49
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner Tom Wittrock's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    I am only comparing BEANO to HARD ROAD if you want to start comparing live stuff from 67 maybe compare that to CREAM.
    The comparison is between Clapton and Green, while in the Bluesbreakers. While in that band, not subsequent bands.

    Have you heard any of the live recordings of Peter Green with the Bluesbreakers?

    It is all our own personal likes and dislikes.
    So, I'm not trying to fight. Just wanting to compare apples to apples.
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  10. #50
    Les Paul Forum Member Tarcisioo's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Everyone's talking about live recordings, but what I see Big Al saying and I also agree very much is that, at least in the studio, Eric sounded a thousand times better than Peter, as the guitar mix on A Hard Road sounds very thin and reverby and (to me) not a very pleasing guitar tone, wich is exactly the opposite of the Beano album, wich is the best studio guitar tone ever recorded in history

    But talking about live recordings, of course you guys have heard Clapton's guitar on Stormy Monday live with Mayall, right?

    I really love both, but saying A Hard Road shows a better guitar tone and performance than the Beano album really intrigues me

  11. #51
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarcisioo View Post
    wich is exactly the opposite of the Beano album, wich is the best studio guitar tone ever recorded in history

    The Beano album was a great album for the fact that it bought Eric playing a LP and Marshall to us all..........not all the tracks sounded great though imho(in the LP/Marshall style).
    You can argue the toss on these things day in and day out but as an example(from the BBs era) I really like Mick Taylor's tone on Crusade as a 'tonal' album.
    Just my 2c.

  12. #52
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarcisioo View Post
    Everyone's talking about live recordings, but what I see Big Al saying and I also agree very much is that, at least in the studio, Eric sounded a thousand times better than Peter, as the guitar mix on A Hard Road sounds very thin and reverby and (to me) not a very pleasing guitar tone, wich is exactly the opposite of the Beano album, wich is the best studio guitar tone ever recorded in history

    But talking about live recordings, of course you guys have heard Clapton's guitar on Stormy Monday live with Mayall, right?

    I really love both, but saying A Hard Road shows a better guitar tone and performance than the Beano album really intrigues me

    Iím talking about the PG Bluesbreaker tracks I posted above. Despite the audio quality being less than great, PGís guitar tone has a very expressive vocal like quality. I find Claptonís tone to have more bite and clarity, no doubt a great benchmark Les Paul tone but to me PGís is more haunting. Idk itís hard to describe tone really. Two great but very different iconic Les Paul/Marshall tones: Duane and Kossoff. Duaneís tone was incredibly vocal, maybe the most vocal of any of the great Les Paul slingers whereas Kossoff had that very present, in your face crunch.

  13. #53
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post
    I’m talking about the PG Bluesbreaker tracks I posted above. Despite the audio quality being less than great, PG’s guitar tone has a very expressive vocal like quality. I find Clapton’s tone to have more bite and clarity, no doubt a great benchmark Les Paul tone but to me PG’s is more haunting. Idk it’s hard to describe tone really.

    Based on the evidence(tracks available) from both of them you'd have to say that Peter showed the greater dexterity and finesse/dynamics...........I would love to have heard more of Eric's live tapes with Mayall from that '65/66 period.
    However..........a small inkling of what happened with those gigs is the medium paced track It Hurts To Be In Love off of the Primal Solos album......inspirational tone and a small sample of what's been lost to us.

    I'm reiterating my previous comments here..........tried to erase this post but it wouldn't let me..........oh well........c'est la vie.........I used to be a parrot but I'm alright now..I used to be a parrot but I'm alright now
    Last edited by goldtop0; 09-08-19 at 01:04 AM.

  14. #54
    Les Paul Forum Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wittrock View Post
    The comparison is between Clapton and Green, while in the Bluesbreakers. While in that band, not subsequent bands.

    Have you heard any of the live recordings of Peter Green with the Bluesbreakers?

    It is all our own personal likes and dislikes.
    So, I'm not trying to fight. Just wanting to compare apples to apples.
    Have you heard the live Clapton recordings? 'Cause good ones are rare and hard to source and line ups varied. Too me, the two studio recordings closest in time, with the same band, represent the fairest comparison. Someone posting a vague live recording claimed from '67, where the guitar is clearly out of phase, something that was said to occur well after Peter started Fleetwood Mac makes it fair to compare to Clapton's live playing from the same time. Otherwise stick to the records, apples to apples.

    I get it, you like Pete, you give vague impressions and rely on live recordings done much later, 'cause the record just don't get it. It ain't fighting Tom, I was looking for clarity and examples from the record to see if I could hear what has only been hinted at. I was poking and prodding hoping to get an example. I get it.
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  15. #55
    Les Paul Forum Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post
    I will likely always prefer PG to EC but I think we can agree it is individual preference.

    With regard to spring Reverb, It sounds to me that most of those cuts were recorded live, with the natural reverb Of the venue. Given the quality, the production seems minimal. Unless it was recorded direct to the FOH desk which I doubt, who would add spring reverb to an already wet recording . Take the first track. I hear a lot of room ambience, the guitar is mixed pretty prominently, the vocals on the other hand are recessed and muddled almost as if they mixed in too much room sound to the direct vocal sound. But who knows I donít have the liner sheets or production notes of those tracks. I think Beano is a much better produced album but that has nothing to do with Spring reverb.
    No, that is not room sound. That sounds very much like studio spring reverb. My 8 track studio in the 70's had an AKG BX20 spring reverb that sounded very much like Hard Road. That thing was HUGE!!!! I don't know if they had that or a British equivalent, but damn it sounds like it, and they laid it on thick. It's not on drums or bass, which is a clue. Supernatural is the same effect.

    Take the "I love Peter Green" hat off for a bit, and give that a serious listen, then do the same for Beano, then please give a honest assessment.

    Too me, The Stumble is the standout guitar track, Supernatual my favorite. I'd like to compare notes and explain why.
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  16. #56
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    I definitely need to revisit early Clapton. He is for many the gold standard.

    In quite a few of the PG tracks I posted you can actually hear the audience. In tears in my eyes, after PGís solo, the applause from the audience actually overloads the room mics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    No, that is not room sound. That sounds very much like studio spring reverb. My 8 track studio in the 70's had an AKG BX20 spring reverb that sounded very much like Hard Road. That thing was HUGE!!!! I don't know if they had that or a British equivalent, but damn it sounds like it, and they laid it on thick. It's not on drums or bass, which is a clue. Supernatural is the same effect.

    Take the "I love Peter Green" hat off for a bit, and give that a serious listen, then do the same for Beano, then please give a honest assessment.

    Too me, The Stumble is the standout guitar track, Supernatual my favorite. I'd like to compare notes and explain why.

  17. #57
    Les Paul Forum Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post
    I definitely need to revisit early Clapton. He is for many the gold standard.

    In quite a few of the PG tracks I posted you can actually hear the audience. In tears in my eyes, after PGís solo, the applause from the audience actually overloads the room mics.
    I prefer the post Hard Road Peter Green live Bluesbreaker stuff and, imo it is far above that album. Make no mistake, I am a big Greenie fan. I'm also a big Clapton fan and find I can like both and till be fairly objective about them and I'm old enough to remember the times and can separate and place things in perspective.

    Do you really think it fair to compare live Clapton from 1965, well before Beano to post Beano, post Hard Road Green live material from 1967 and some later I suspect. The clip you posted clearly has that oof tone that happened after Fleetwood Mac.

    There is a huge difference between 65 and 67. Much greater than 2 years as witnessed by the music produced. That short time period saw major changes and if you are too young to remember, research a little.
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  18. #58
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    I didn’t listen to PG until I bought my first Les Paul. I knew about Clapton from Layla. Never heard of Beano until I saw it mentioned on this forum. So I’m sure you are far more knowledgeable about EC and PG than I.

    That said I do know this, those YouTube clips I posted certainly sound like a Les Paul through a Marshall. They definitely DO NOT have that out of phase tone. I don’t know if you listened to those clips but Tears, Worried Dream, etc., sound nothing like Jumping at Shadows or Fool no More where PG’s out of phase tone awash in reverb is unmistakable. Leads me to suspect you never listened to them. This would of course render our discussion here rather pointless because you are not referencing the same PG material that I am.


    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    I prefer the post Hard Road Peter Green live Bluesbreaker stuff and, imo it is far above that album. Make no mistake, I am a big Greenie fan. I'm also a big Clapton fan and find I can like both and till be fairly objective about them and I'm old enough to remember the times and can separate and place things in perspective.

    Do you really think it fair to compare live Clapton from 1965, well before Beano to post Beano, post Hard Road Green live material from 1967 and some later I suspect. The clip you posted clearly has that oof tone that happened after Fleetwood Mac.

    There is a huge difference between 65 and 67. Much greater than 2 years as witnessed by the music produced. That short time period saw major changes and if you are too young to remember, research a little.

  19. #59
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by mistersnappy View Post
    All those cats were great! But, Clapton was the first to really kick out the jams with that tone, volume and phrasing. Being the first sets him apart. Take that as you will.
    It's become quite fashionable to knock Clapton these days. If not for him, there would probably be no Peter Green, at least not as we know him.
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  20. #60
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    I donít think posing a question about who was better in the Bluesbreakers Clapton or Green counts as knocking him. As far as fashionable, when has it ever been fashionable to knock the guitarist still regarded as ďGodĒ by many? I guess when youíre ďGodĒ, any comparison to mere mortals is a knock. So Without ďhimĒ there would be no Peter Green? Obviously, there would be no Jimmy Page, no Jeff Beck, probably no Jimi Hendrix or Duane Allman either.


    I can appreciate Claptonís immense talent and the impact he had. However, this idea it all began with him is ridiculous. Muddy Waters, Elmore James, Robert Johnson, Chuck Berry, BB King, Freddy King, and every other American blues player that came before Eric plugged into a JTM45 together with Leo Fenderís amps, led to the inevitability of ďEnglish BluesĒ. You should probably throw in Buddy Holly and Elvis in there as well. And Donít forget some of Claptonís English contemporaries like Keith, Brian, George and John.






    Quote Originally Posted by gmann View Post
    It's become quite fashionable to knock Clapton these days. If not for him, there would probably be no Peter Green, at least not as we know him.

  21. #61
    Les Paul Forum Member CatManDoo88's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post
    I don’t think posing a question about who was better in the Bluesbreakers Clapton or Green counts as knocking him. As far as fashionable, when has it ever been fashionable to knock the guitarist still regarded as “God” by many? I guess when you’re “God”, any comparison to mere mortals is a knock. So Without “him” there would be no Peter Green? Obviously, there would be no Jimmy Page, no Jeff Beck, probably no Jimi Hendrix or Duane Allman either.


    I can appreciate Clapton’s immense talent and the impact he had. However, this idea it all began with him is ridiculous. Muddy Waters, Elmore James, Robert Johnson, Chuck Berry, BB King, Freddy King, and every other American blues player that came before Eric plugged into a JTM45 together with Leo Fender’s amps, led to the inevitability of “English Blues”. You should probably throw in Buddy Holly and Elvis in there as well. And Don’t forget some of Clapton’s English contemporaries like Keith, Brian, George and John.
    Actually, it can be said quite definitively that there would be no Peter Green without Clapton. Green was playing bass in a small time band until he saw Clapton playing with the Bluesbreakers. It was Clapton's guitar playing in the Bluesbreakers that inspired Green to switch from bass to guitar and devote himself to electric blues. (See Christopher Hjort, Strange Brew, 2007)
    Last edited by CatManDoo88; 09-09-19 at 06:10 PM. Reason: spelling

  22. #62
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by CatManDoo88 View Post
    Actually, it can be said quite definitively that there would be no Peter Green without Clapton. Green was playing bass in a small time band until he saw Clapton playing with the Bluesbreakers. It was Clapton's guitar playing in the Bluesbreakers that inspired Green to switch from bass to guitar and devote himself to electric blues. (See Christopher Hjort, Strange Brew, 2007)
    EC influenced PG, Robert Johnson influenced EC. You seem to conflate influence and causation which are not equivalent. The cat was out of the bag for electric blues and rock. The talent of both PG and EC was at a level where playing was like a calling for them, I hate to say something is inevitable but both EC and PG seemed like inevitable forces of nature. Without Robert Johnson there was always Muddy Waters and a host of Delta Bluesmen and who can say PG would not have been inspired by Keith, Brian, Jimmy, Jeff or Jimi. Too bad PG lost it like Syd Barrett. Good to see EC had such a long and formidable career.

  23. #63
    Les Paul Forum Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post
    I didnít listen to PG until I bought my first Les Paul. I knew about Clapton from Layla. Never heard of Beano until I saw it mentioned on this forum. So Iím sure you are far more knowledgeable about EC and PG than I.

    That said I do know this, those YouTube clips I posted certainly sound like a Les Paul through a Marshall. They definitely DO NOT have that out of phase tone. I donít know if you listened to those clips but Tears, Worried Dream, etc., sound nothing like Jumping at Shadows or Fool no More where PGís out of phase tone awash in reverb is unmistakable. Leads me to suspect you never listened to them. This would of course render our discussion here rather pointless because you are not referencing the same PG material that I am.
    What is pointless is your ignorance. The clip you posted in #46 clearly features the out of phase tone Peter used in FM. From the first phrase heard. WTF does a Marshall have to do with it, or reverb I don't know as neither matters to get that tone. Kind of hard to put any weight behind an opinion about tone with someone who clearly has no ears.

    I also wonder about your reading skills as I have been clear about comparng the two Bluesbreaker albums Beano & Hard Road, studio albums close in time featuring both guitarist. I doubt you own either as you show zero familuarity with them or basic recording knowledge. Clearly unable to tell room ambience from spring reverb or the process of applying reverb in a studio.

    Again it is interesting but not informative to compare live recordings from 65 to those from 67.

    In later posts you show how weak your grasp of musical history is with your simpleton evaluation of Clapton and seem to feel it is just the choice of guitar and amp.

    You have some serious learnin to do and if I wasn't dying right now I'd school you.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  24. #64
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    I like all of these guys . Way back when I first got the Beano album and subsequent times when I put it on the stereo to listen to it , it sounds so powerful like it is going to blow up the speakers .Have You Ever Loved a Woman is as good as it gets for me .EC had something big and loud to say and it still brings me goose bumps listening to him blaze up and down the fretboard of his Les Paul . Les Paul into a Marshall -cranked !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  25. #65
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Al, it’s good to see you still have that grouchy edge. I’d hate to have you go all PC on us.

    If you can’t hear the difference between PGs tone in the first video vs his out of phase tone in the second video then you either need to get your hearing checked or stop listening to it on your iPhone in the shower.

    Here ya go nice an easy for you. the difference in tone is not subtle






    I also can match the first videos tone with my bridge pickup rolled down with this set up here. It helps that the room I’m in has high ceilings and good NATURAL reverb.


    For the second video, the closest I can get is with the out of phase position of my 66 ES345.


    And yes I’m comparatively a blues simpleton. That’s what I said didn’t I. But as with any art form, I go with what hits me viscerally emotionally, if you need it explained to you, well maybe it was never that great to begin with. But by all means Al, condescend like the other whiff and poofs sipping wine pontificating why 3 vertical stripes on a canvas is art.

    As far as reading comprehension, never once did I mention hard road in my posts. I posted the specific vids of what I was comparing so there should be no confusion. You kept making that comparison not me.

    Al, you’re a wonderful fixture here on the LPF and I enjoy your posts even your highly acerbic ones but please put on some good reference headphones and listen to the clips. Maybe play along with them and see for yourself. One is definitely not out of phase, one definitely is. As far as the last bit you mentioned, I sincerely hope you mean that in the overall general sense. You know the death and taxes kinda way.




    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    What is pointless is your ignorance. The clip you posted in #46 clearly features the out of phase tone Peter used in FM. From the first phrase heard. WTF does a Marshall have to do with it, or reverb I don't know as neither matters to get that tone. Kind of hard to put any weight behind an opinion about tone with someone who clearly has no ears.

    I also wonder about your reading skills as I have been clear about comparng the two Bluesbreaker albums Beano & Hard Road, studio albums close in time featuring both guitarist. I doubt you own either as you show zero familuarity with them or basic recording knowledge. Clearly unable to tell room ambience from spring reverb or the process of applying reverb in a studio.

    Again it is interesting but not informative to compare live recordings from 65 to those from 67.

    In later posts you show how weak your grasp of musical history is with your simpleton evaluation of Clapton and seem to feel it is just the choice of guitar and amp.

    You have some serious learnin to do and if I wasn't dying right now I'd school you.
    Last edited by JPP-1; 09-10-19 at 08:53 AM.

  26. #66
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Thatís what itís all about. Goose bumps. Cheers to that!


    I still remember the first time I really got Led Zeppelin. I had just hooked up all these newly bought audiophile components and cranked LZ I. when I canít quit you babe came on I had to pick my mouth from off the floor. It was like the band was in the room with me and I could smell the delta mud. I wondered how four skinny Englishmen could tap into the mississippi delta blues gods. That was the first time too I felt the raw emotive power of a more classic blues tunes. That said, with the exception of some tracks like I canít quit you and Sibly, I never really cared for the more classic blues songs until I heard PG a good bit later in life after picking up the guitar.

    I like Clapton, thereís an uncompromising durability to him thatís never in your face. I admire that. You can tell, he keeps he own council and believes in what he believes in. It goes without saying on guitar heís One of the greats, epic. Much of what I like personally about Clapton I dislike about Cobain but Iím not embarrassed to say the first time I heard Smells Like Teem Spirit I got goosebumps. I even remember specifically where I was when it came on the radio.

    You never know what will hit you until it does. But tastes evolve and sometimes with certain art, you may need to give it a little more time which is why Iím revisiting EC and Still trying to make that emotional connection.


    Quote Originally Posted by El Gringo View Post
    I like all of these guys . Way back when I first got the Beano album and subsequent times when I put it on the stereo to listen to it , it sounds so powerful like it is going to blow up the speakers .Have You Ever Loved a Woman is as good as it gets for me .EC had something big and loud to say and it still brings me goose bumps listening to him blaze up and down the fretboard of his Les Paul . Les Paul into a Marshall -cranked !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  27. #67
    Les Paul Forum Member Tarcisioo's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    My opinion is that Peter Green was great carrying that lousy blues Clapton started with Mayall, and that Peter developed a very touchy style wich is very different from Eric's and for that I totally understand how one can prefer him over Eric. But the thing is Peter Green's guitar work on A Hard Road wasn't his best (wich is not saying it wasn't good, but not up to his other stuff with FM or live playing). Meanwhile, Clapton guitar on the Beano album is fenomenal, it still is the overall best guitar tone I ever heard.

    I am a Peter Green fan, Jumping at shadows is one of my favorite tones ever and I flipped the magnet of my Les Paul long ago because of Peter. But it's for what Clapton did with the Bluesbrakers that I am pretty sure myself that Clapton is indeed God.

    And when the quality is good, you can see he was mighty flamey on the stage too, but I do agree that Peter Green 67' recording with Mayall is just superb guitar work, as was with Fleetwood Mac. 1967 was his year.


  28. #68
    Les Paul Forum Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post
    Al, itís good to see you still have that grouchy edge. Iíd hate to have you go all PC on us.

    If you canít hear the difference between PGs tone in the first video vs his out of phase tone in the second video then you either need to get your hearing checked or stop listening to it on your iPhone in the shower.

    Here ya go nice an easy for you. the difference in tone is not subtle






    I also can match the first videos tone with my bridge pickup rolled down with this set up here. It helps that the room Iím in has high ceilings and good NATURAL reverb.


    For the second video, the closest I can get is with the out of phase position of my 66 ES345.


    And yes Iím comparatively a blues simpleton. Thatís what I said didnít I. But as with any art form, I go with what hits me viscerally emotionally, if you need it explained to you, well maybe it was never that great to begin with. But by all means Al, condescend like the other whiff and poofs sipping wine pontificating why 3 vertical stripes on a canvas is art.

    As far as reading comprehension, never once did I mention hard road in my posts. I posted the specific vids of what I was comparing so there should be no confusion. You kept making that comparison not me.

    Al, youíre a wonderful fixture here on the LPF and I enjoy your posts even your highly acerbic ones but please put on some good reference headphones and listen to the clips. Maybe play along with them and see for yourself. One is definitely not out of phase, one definitely is. As far as the last bit you mentioned, I sincerely hope you mean that in the overall general sense. You know the death and taxes kinda way.
    Brother, I am grouchy, and scared to death and angry as hell and in considerable pain since last night and today may be my last with two arms as my left arm is literally comming apart. NONE OF THIS IS UP FOR DISCUSSION. Just 'splainin' my mood.

    Look, you like what you like. That's a given. All along I've been clear that my comments are in regards to the two albums as those carry the weight of legacy, not youtube bootlegs that up to now most haven't heard. I also have made it clear that the distance musically, hell culturaly between pre Beano 65 and post Beano 67 live recordings are meaningless for comparison as there are no post Beano Clapton boots I can find.

    I only ever referenced your clip in regards to year contex as the clearly out of phase tone puts it at a particular time frame. You repeatedly stated, emphatically it was not oop and brought up "points" about marshall amps and reverb?????
    WTF! WTF!!

    When did marshall amps or reverb enter into my stating the clip showcased oop tone???

    Now you bring another clip and claim that both clips show DIFFERENT oop tone. SO!!!!!! They are different. You say it's not oop, then it is but different, WTF!! How do I or anyone give credibility to somebody this confused?

    You keep claiming I didn't listen or used an iphone in the shower yet you show confusion over every point and seem to have an inability to read or listen.

    You need to read and listen. I was clear in all my examples and observations and instead of responding to that you apply my observations to obscure live bootlegs to try and twist my comments to bolster your opinion. Dude, if I had you in front of me you certainly would be paying for the beers and wings.

    Also you need schooling, I ain't fooling. Do some honest research, BUY THE TWO FLIPPIN' CDS!! Every guitarist should have them. I'd have you give me a call so we could discuss deeper but my immediate future is appearing dire. I gotta go now my ride's comming to take me to the hospital and I haven't even told the wife yet. This will be my last post for awhile, I don't know what's in store and none of that needs commenting on. gotta go
    The older I get, the better I was.

  29. #69
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    Brother, I am grouchy, and scared to death and angry as hell and in considerable pain since last night and today may be my last with two arms as my left arm is literally comming apart. NONE OF THIS IS UP FOR DISCUSSION. Just 'splainin' my mood.

    Look, you like what you like. That's a given. All along I've been clear that my comments are in regards to the two albums as those carry the weight of legacy, not youtube bootlegs that up to now most haven't heard. I also have made it clear that the distance musically, hell culturaly between pre Beano 65 and post Beano 67 live recordings are meaningless for comparison as there are no post Beano Clapton boots I can find.

    I only ever referenced your clip in regards to year contex as the clearly out of phase tone puts it at a particular time frame. You repeatedly stated, emphatically it was not oop and brought up "points" about marshall amps and reverb?????
    WTF! WTF!!

    When did marshall amps or reverb enter into my stating the clip showcased oop tone???

    Now you bring another clip and claim that both clips show DIFFERENT oop tone. SO!!!!!! They are different. You say it's not oop, then it is but different, WTF!! How do I or anyone give credibility to somebody this confused?

    You keep claiming I didn't listen or used an iphone in the shower yet you show confusion over every point and seem to have an inability to read or listen.

    You need to read and listen. I was clear in all my examples and observations and instead of responding to that you apply my observations to obscure live bootlegs to try and twist my comments to bolster your opinion. Dude, if I had you in front of me you certainly would be paying for the beers and wings.

    Also you need schooling, I ain't fooling. Do some honest research, BUY THE TWO FLIPPIN' CDS!! Every guitarist should have them. I'd have you give me a call so we could discuss deeper but my immediate future is appearing dire. I gotta go now my ride's comming to take me to the hospital and I haven't even told the wife yet. This will be my last post for awhile, I don't know what's in store and none of that needs commenting on. gotta go

    Al, I will send some prayers your way. I hope thatís not the case. There are many developing novel medical treatments out there. So never give up. Maybe there is something coming up that will help. I hope the Doctor treating you is a great one.

  30. #70
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post
    Al, I will send some prayers your way. I hope thatís not the case. There are many developing novel medical treatments out there. So never give up. Maybe there is something coming up that will help. I hope the Doctor treating you is a great one.


    Prayers from me also coming your way Al.

  31. #71

    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post
    I don’t think posing a question about who was better in the Bluesbreakers Clapton or Green counts as knocking him. As far as fashionable, when has it ever been fashionable to knock the guitarist still regarded as “God” by many? I guess when you’re “God”, any comparison to mere mortals is a knock. So Without “him” there would be no Peter Green? Obviously, there would be no Jimmy Page, no Jeff Beck, probably no Jimi Hendrix or Duane Allman either.


    I can appreciate Clapton’s immense talent and the impact he had. However, this idea it all began with him is ridiculous. Muddy Waters, Elmore James, Robert Johnson, Chuck Berry, BB King, Freddy King, and every other American blues player that came before Eric plugged into a JTM45 together with Leo Fender’s amps, led to the inevitability of “English Blues”. You should probably throw in Buddy Holly and Elvis in there as well. And Don’t forget some of Clapton’s English contemporaries like Keith, Brian, George and John.

    Jeff Beck tone is what started it all. Listen to 5 Live Yardbirds then listen to Beck Yardbirds.

    Beck was already tone experimenting when EC was doing scales. Only those who actually saw the Yardbirds with Beck live would understand.

    Heres just some blues:


  32. #72

    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Jeff Beck had that LesPaul influence early on, mixed with the old bluesmen and he was into the feedback streams and originality.

    he also turned the volume knob up first.


  33. #73
    Les Paul Forum Member CatManDoo88's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by rialcnis View Post
    Jeff Beck tone is what started it all. Listen to 5 Live Yardbirds then listen to Beck Yardbirds.

    Beck was already tone experimenting when EC was doing scales. Only those who actually saw the Yardbirds with Beck live would understand.

    Heres just some blues:
    Quote Originally Posted by rialcnis View Post
    Jeff Beck had that LesPaul influence early on, mixed with the old bluesmen and he was into the feedback streams and originality.

    he also turned the volume knob up first.
    Umm, the Clapton songs on Five Live Yardbirds were recorded in 1964. There was a lot of swift moving development in the London music scene between when the Clapton tracks were recorded and Beck replaced Clapton in the Yardbirds. The Beck Yardbirds tracks you reference were recorded November/December 1965 (New York City Blues) and 1966 (The Nazz are Blue). Beck was still playing his Esquire in 1965. The whole Clapton with a Les Paul and Marshall started in May/June 1965 and he was already recording stuff like this in the summer of 1965:


    This is where Beck's playing was in summer 1965:


    The idea that Beck started it all and was "already tone experimenting when EC was doing scales" is laughable. Your chronology is way out of whack.
    Last edited by CatManDoo88; 09-15-19 at 11:45 AM.

  34. #74

    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by CatManDoo88 View Post
    Umm, the Clapton songs on Five Live Yardbirds were recorded in 1964. There was a lot of swift moving development in the London music scene between when the Clapton tracks were recorded and Beck replaced Clapton in the Yardbirds. The Beck Yardbirds tracks you reference were recorded November/December 1965 (New York City Blues) and 1966 (The Nazz are Blue). Beck was still playing his Esquire in 1965. The whole Clapton with a Les Paul and Marshall started in May/June 1965 and he was already recording stuff like this in the summer of 1965:



    The idea that Beck started it all and was "already tone experimenting when EC was doing scales" is laughable. Your chronology is way out of whack.

    it's laughable all right.

    I was there. Everyone was in total awe of Jeff Beck. His tone and originality. When I mentioned Les Paul, as early influence, of Beck, I was taking about Les Paul himself. Many of us old timers grew up with him on the TV.

    The For your Love album was released in July 1965. The Tracks with Clapton were the existing early singles and flip sides and the Stand out tracks were Beck, I ain't done wrong and I'm not talking. Listen to it. Everyone who heard Beck including Hendrix, changed their TONE overnight. Beck invented it with a leap.

    In Hollywood any young fella that saw the first Yardbirds tour had their minds blown. Either they started experimenting, or they bought a guitar. Listen to pre Beck Hendrix. It was the tone and originality of Beck that changed it all. Just repeating Blues riffs and scales, was just not the same as Jeff Beck.. Beck started playing a Les Paul on the Roger album and live. I saw it on Catalina Island in Aug 1966.

    at the time they all admitted it, including Hendrix.



    Last edited by rialcnis; 09-20-19 at 03:02 PM.

  35. #75

    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Beck was not only changing the tone, he created entirely new riffs.

    He wasn't just playing old riffs with more volume and tone.


  36. #76

    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    On this thread people were debating who was better, with the Bluesbreakers, Clapton or Green. They were both great. I saw both on all their Whisky appearances. At the time I think I thought Peter Green's tone/sound was more mesmerizing, but both were great.

    In the middle of 1966 Cream kicked off. I loved them too. I saw them on their first tour at the Whisky every show. On stage they were extending the instrumentals and they were excessively loud. Standing in front of Clapton's amp I went deaf nearly a month. I watched his hand close up. His instrumentals were repetative scales for twenty minutes. I loved Cream, but they weren't The Yardbirds and Clapton was not Jeff Beck.

    There was a reason Page recommended Beck to replace Clapton. Beck was a sensation with the Tridents since 1963. He was doing his own thing way back when. He was not one to copy anyone. There are a couple of their songs on youtube.

  37. #77
    Les Paul Forum Member sidekick's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    We all know that both EC's and PG's playing with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers was so very special. EC's playing was initially an inspiration to PG that he rose to. In that sense, EC led the way, but for me PG eclipsed EC in touch/feel and it probably boils down to whose tone we each prefer.

    Mike Vernon who recorded both is down as saying that while he felt EC had a certain 'fire', he felt that PG back then had a more 'pure blues'.


  38. #78
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Quote Originally Posted by sidekick View Post
    We all know that both EC's and PG's playing with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers was so very special. EC's playing was initially an inspiration to PG that he rose to. In that sense, EC led the way, but for me PG eclipsed EC in touch/feel and it probably boils down to whose tone we each prefer.

    Mike Vernon who recorded both is down as saying that while he felt EC had a certain 'fire', he felt that PG back then had a more 'pure blues'.
    There is a new album coming out next month featuring early or the original Fleetwood Mac 1968-1970 with newly discovered live material and studio demo stuff which the master tapes were found here in the US unlabeled but in excellent condition.

  39. #79
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    Cool bootleg of Greenie...dig the photo and pretty nice tone happening.


  40. #80
    Les Paul Forum Member AA00475Bassman's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

    I like this song so much , this was one of the first songs I learned how to play some 40+ years back . Great playing although lacks the spice Clapton added just my hack opinion .
    Ive never confused owning a bunch of high end gear with being some kind of a guitar player I'm a hack and I love guitars !

    He thinks the mirror is a photo of a clown ?

    The Myth: Neat wiring layouts always equate to great-sounding amps.

    The Myth: If I would have lived with MOM & mooched till I was 48 I would play like Clapton !
    Think about it
    won't you ...... Please !

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