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Peter Green and the Bluesbreakers Better than Clapton?

CatManDoo88

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Mar 3, 2019
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156
I don’t think posing a question about who was better in the Bluesbreakers Clapton or Green counts as knocking him. As far as fashionable, when has it ever been fashionable to knock the guitarist still regarded as “God” by many? I guess when you’re “God”, any comparison to mere mortals is a knock. So Without “him” there would be no Peter Green? Obviously, there would be no Jimmy Page, no Jeff Beck, probably no Jimi Hendrix or Duane Allman either.


I can appreciate Clapton’s immense talent and the impact he had. However, this idea it all began with him is ridiculous. Muddy Waters, Elmore James, Robert Johnson, Chuck Berry, BB King, Freddy King, and every other American blues player that came before Eric plugged into a JTM45 together with Leo Fender’s amps, led to the inevitability of “English Blues”. You should probably throw in Buddy Holly and Elvis in there as well. And Don’t forget some of Clapton’s English contemporaries like Keith, Brian, George and John.

Actually, it can be said quite definitively that there would be no Peter Green without Clapton. Green was playing bass in a small time band until he saw Clapton playing with the Bluesbreakers. It was Clapton's guitar playing in the Bluesbreakers that inspired Green to switch from bass to guitar and devote himself to electric blues. (See Christopher Hjort, Strange Brew, 2007)
 
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JPP-1

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Actually, it can be said quite definitively that there would be no Peter Green without Clapton. Green was playing bass in a small time band until he saw Clapton playing with the Bluesbreakers. It was Clapton's guitar playing in the Bluesbreakers that inspired Green to switch from bass to guitar and devote himself to electric blues. (See Christopher Hjort, Strange Brew, 2007)

EC influenced PG, Robert Johnson influenced EC. You seem to conflate influence and causation which are not equivalent. The cat was out of the bag for electric blues and rock. The talent of both PG and EC was at a level where playing was like a calling for them, I hate to say something is inevitable but both EC and PG seemed like inevitable forces of nature. Without Robert Johnson there was always Muddy Waters and a host of Delta Bluesmen and who can say PG would not have been inspired by Keith, Brian, Jimmy, Jeff or Jimi. Too bad PG lost it like Syd Barrett. Good to see EC had such a long and formidable career.
 

Big Al

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I didn’t listen to PG until I bought my first Les Paul. I knew about Clapton from Layla. Never heard of Beano until I saw it mentioned on this forum. So I’m sure you are far more knowledgeable about EC and PG than I.

That said I do know this, those YouTube clips I posted certainly sound like a Les Paul through a Marshall. They definitely DO NOT have that out of phase tone. I don’t know if you listened to those clips but Tears, Worried Dream, etc., sound nothing like Jumping at Shadows or Fool no More where PG’s out of phase tone awash in reverb is unmistakable. Leads me to suspect you never listened to them. This would of course render our discussion here rather pointless because you are not referencing the same PG material that I am.

What is pointless is your ignorance. The clip you posted in #46 clearly features the out of phase tone Peter used in FM. From the first phrase heard. WTF does a Marshall have to do with it, or reverb I don't know as neither matters to get that tone. Kind of hard to put any weight behind an opinion about tone with someone who clearly has no ears.

I also wonder about your reading skills as I have been clear about comparng the two Bluesbreaker albums Beano & Hard Road, studio albums close in time featuring both guitarist. I doubt you own either as you show zero familuarity with them or basic recording knowledge. Clearly unable to tell room ambience from spring reverb or the process of applying reverb in a studio.

Again it is interesting but not informative to compare live recordings from 65 to those from 67.

In later posts you show how weak your grasp of musical history is with your simpleton evaluation of Clapton and seem to feel it is just the choice of guitar and amp.

You have some serious learnin to do and if I wasn't dying right now I'd school you.
 

El Gringo

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Apr 8, 2015
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I like all of these guys . Way back when I first got the Beano album and subsequent times when I put it on the stereo to listen to it , it sounds so powerful like it is going to blow up the speakers .Have You Ever Loved a Woman is as good as it gets for me .EC had something big and loud to say and it still brings me goose bumps listening to him blaze up and down the fretboard of his Les Paul . Les Paul into a Marshall -cranked !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

JPP-1

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Messages
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Al, it’s good to see you still have that grouchy edge. I’d hate to have you go all PC on us.

If you can’t hear the difference between PGs tone in the first video vs his out of phase tone in the second video then you either need to get your hearing checked or stop listening to it on your iPhone in the shower.

Here ya go nice an easy for you. the difference in tone is not subtle




I also can match the first videos tone with my bridge pickup rolled down with this set up here. It helps that the room I’m in has high ceilings and good NATURAL reverb.
DImgmA.jpg


For the second video, the closest I can get is with the out of phase position of my 66 ES345.


And yes I’m comparatively a blues simpleton. That’s what I said didn’t I. But as with any art form, I go with what hits me viscerally emotionally, if you need it explained to you, well maybe it was never that great to begin with. But by all means Al, condescend like the other whiff and poofs sipping wine pontificating why 3 vertical stripes on a canvas is art.

As far as reading comprehension, never once did I mention hard road in my posts. I posted the specific vids of what I was comparing so there should be no confusion. You kept making that comparison not me.

Al, you’re a wonderful fixture here on the LPF and I enjoy your posts even your highly acerbic ones but please put on some good reference headphones and listen to the clips. Maybe play along with them and see for yourself. One is definitely not out of phase, one definitely is. As far as the last bit you mentioned, I sincerely hope you mean that in the overall general sense. You know the death and taxes kinda way.




What is pointless is your ignorance. The clip you posted in #46 clearly features the out of phase tone Peter used in FM. From the first phrase heard. WTF does a Marshall have to do with it, or reverb I don't know as neither matters to get that tone. Kind of hard to put any weight behind an opinion about tone with someone who clearly has no ears.

I also wonder about your reading skills as I have been clear about comparng the two Bluesbreaker albums Beano & Hard Road, studio albums close in time featuring both guitarist. I doubt you own either as you show zero familuarity with them or basic recording knowledge. Clearly unable to tell room ambience from spring reverb or the process of applying reverb in a studio.

Again it is interesting but not informative to compare live recordings from 65 to those from 67.

In later posts you show how weak your grasp of musical history is with your simpleton evaluation of Clapton and seem to feel it is just the choice of guitar and amp.

You have some serious learnin to do and if I wasn't dying right now I'd school you.
 
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JPP-1

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Jul 11, 2006
Messages
1,336
That’s what it’s all about. Goose bumps. Cheers to that!


I still remember the first time I really got Led Zeppelin. I had just hooked up all these newly bought audiophile components and cranked LZ I. when I can’t quit you babe came on I had to pick my mouth from off the floor. It was like the band was in the room with me and I could smell the delta mud. I wondered how four skinny Englishmen could tap into the mississippi delta blues gods. That was the first time too I felt the raw emotive power of a more classic blues tunes. That said, with the exception of some tracks like I can’t quit you and Sibly, I never really cared for the more classic blues songs until I heard PG a good bit later in life after picking up the guitar.

I like Clapton, there’s an uncompromising durability to him that’s never in your face. I admire that. You can tell, he keeps he own council and believes in what he believes in. It goes without saying on guitar he’s One of the greats, epic. Much of what I like personally about Clapton I dislike about Cobain but I’m not embarrassed to say the first time I heard Smells Like Teem Spirit I got goosebumps. I even remember specifically where I was when it came on the radio.

You never know what will hit you until it does. But tastes evolve and sometimes with certain art, you may need to give it a little more time which is why I’m revisiting EC and Still trying to make that emotional connection.


I like all of these guys . Way back when I first got the Beano album and subsequent times when I put it on the stereo to listen to it , it sounds so powerful like it is going to blow up the speakers .Have You Ever Loved a Woman is as good as it gets for me .EC had something big and loud to say and it still brings me goose bumps listening to him blaze up and down the fretboard of his Les Paul . Les Paul into a Marshall -cranked !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Tarcisioo

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Oct 5, 2014
Messages
385
My opinion is that Peter Green was great carrying that lousy blues Clapton started with Mayall, and that Peter developed a very touchy style wich is very different from Eric's and for that I totally understand how one can prefer him over Eric. But the thing is Peter Green's guitar work on A Hard Road wasn't his best (wich is not saying it wasn't good, but not up to his other stuff with FM or live playing). Meanwhile, Clapton guitar on the Beano album is fenomenal, it still is the overall best guitar tone I ever heard.

I am a Peter Green fan, Jumping at shadows is one of my favorite tones ever and I flipped the magnet of my Les Paul long ago because of Peter. But it's for what Clapton did with the Bluesbrakers that I am pretty sure myself that Clapton is indeed God.

And when the quality is good, you can see he was mighty flamey on the stage too, but I do agree that Peter Green 67' recording with Mayall is just superb guitar work, as was with Fleetwood Mac. 1967 was his year.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-0tJhHlbxWo" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
 

Big Al

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Apr 24, 2002
Messages
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Al, it’s good to see you still have that grouchy edge. I’d hate to have you go all PC on us.

If you can’t hear the difference between PGs tone in the first video vs his out of phase tone in the second video then you either need to get your hearing checked or stop listening to it on your iPhone in the shower.

Here ya go nice an easy for you. the difference in tone is not subtle




I also can match the first videos tone with my bridge pickup rolled down with this set up here. It helps that the room I’m in has high ceilings and good NATURAL reverb.
DImgmA.jpg


For the second video, the closest I can get is with the out of phase position of my 66 ES345.


And yes I’m comparatively a blues simpleton. That’s what I said didn’t I. But as with any art form, I go with what hits me viscerally emotionally, if you need it explained to you, well maybe it was never that great to begin with. But by all means Al, condescend like the other whiff and poofs sipping wine pontificating why 3 vertical stripes on a canvas is art.

As far as reading comprehension, never once did I mention hard road in my posts. I posted the specific vids of what I was comparing so there should be no confusion. You kept making that comparison not me.

Al, you’re a wonderful fixture here on the LPF and I enjoy your posts even your highly acerbic ones but please put on some good reference headphones and listen to the clips. Maybe play along with them and see for yourself. One is definitely not out of phase, one definitely is. As far as the last bit you mentioned, I sincerely hope you mean that in the overall general sense. You know the death and taxes kinda way.

Brother, I am grouchy, and scared to death and angry as hell and in considerable pain since last night and today may be my last with two arms as my left arm is literally comming apart. NONE OF THIS IS UP FOR DISCUSSION. Just 'splainin' my mood.

Look, you like what you like. That's a given. All along I've been clear that my comments are in regards to the two albums as those carry the weight of legacy, not youtube bootlegs that up to now most haven't heard. I also have made it clear that the distance musically, hell culturaly between pre Beano 65 and post Beano 67 live recordings are meaningless for comparison as there are no post Beano Clapton boots I can find.

I only ever referenced your clip in regards to year contex as the clearly out of phase tone puts it at a particular time frame. You repeatedly stated, emphatically it was not oop and brought up "points" about marshall amps and reverb?????
WTF! WTF!!:bigal

When did marshall amps or reverb enter into my stating the clip showcased oop tone???

Now you bring another clip and claim that both clips show DIFFERENT oop tone. SO!!!!!! They are different. You say it's not oop, then it is but different, WTF!! How do I or anyone give credibility to somebody this confused?

You keep claiming I didn't listen or used an iphone in the shower yet you show confusion over every point and seem to have an inability to read or listen.

You need to read and listen. I was clear in all my examples and observations and instead of responding to that you apply my observations to obscure live bootlegs to try and twist my comments to bolster your opinion. Dude, if I had you in front of me you certainly would be paying for the beers and wings.

Also you need schooling, I ain't fooling. Do some honest research, BUY THE TWO FLIPPIN' CDS!! Every guitarist should have them. I'd have you give me a call so we could discuss deeper but my immediate future is appearing dire. I gotta go now my ride's comming to take me to the hospital and I haven't even told the wife yet. This will be my last post for awhile, I don't know what's in store and none of that needs commenting on. gotta go
 

JPP-1

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Jul 11, 2006
Messages
1,336
Brother, I am grouchy, and scared to death and angry as hell and in considerable pain since last night and today may be my last with two arms as my left arm is literally comming apart. NONE OF THIS IS UP FOR DISCUSSION. Just 'splainin' my mood.

Look, you like what you like. That's a given. All along I've been clear that my comments are in regards to the two albums as those carry the weight of legacy, not youtube bootlegs that up to now most haven't heard. I also have made it clear that the distance musically, hell culturaly between pre Beano 65 and post Beano 67 live recordings are meaningless for comparison as there are no post Beano Clapton boots I can find.

I only ever referenced your clip in regards to year contex as the clearly out of phase tone puts it at a particular time frame. You repeatedly stated, emphatically it was not oop and brought up "points" about marshall amps and reverb?????
WTF! WTF!!:bigal

When did marshall amps or reverb enter into my stating the clip showcased oop tone???

Now you bring another clip and claim that both clips show DIFFERENT oop tone. SO!!!!!! They are different. You say it's not oop, then it is but different, WTF!! How do I or anyone give credibility to somebody this confused?

You keep claiming I didn't listen or used an iphone in the shower yet you show confusion over every point and seem to have an inability to read or listen.

You need to read and listen. I was clear in all my examples and observations and instead of responding to that you apply my observations to obscure live bootlegs to try and twist my comments to bolster your opinion. Dude, if I had you in front of me you certainly would be paying for the beers and wings.

Also you need schooling, I ain't fooling. Do some honest research, BUY THE TWO FLIPPIN' CDS!! Every guitarist should have them. I'd have you give me a call so we could discuss deeper but my immediate future is appearing dire. I gotta go now my ride's comming to take me to the hospital and I haven't even told the wife yet. This will be my last post for awhile, I don't know what's in store and none of that needs commenting on. gotta go


Al, I will send some prayers your way. I hope that’s not the case. There are many developing novel medical treatments out there. So never give up. Maybe there is something coming up that will help. I hope the Doctor treating you is a great one.
 

goldtop0

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Messages
8,931
Al, I will send some prayers your way. I hope that’s not the case. There are many developing novel medical treatments out there. So never give up. Maybe there is something coming up that will help. I hope the Doctor treating you is a great one.



Prayers from me also coming your way Al.
 

rialcnis

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Jul 5, 2019
Messages
221
I don’t think posing a question about who was better in the Bluesbreakers Clapton or Green counts as knocking him. As far as fashionable, when has it ever been fashionable to knock the guitarist still regarded as “God” by many? I guess when you’re “God”, any comparison to mere mortals is a knock. So Without “him” there would be no Peter Green? Obviously, there would be no Jimmy Page, no Jeff Beck, probably no Jimi Hendrix or Duane Allman either.


I can appreciate Clapton’s immense talent and the impact he had. However, this idea it all began with him is ridiculous. Muddy Waters, Elmore James, Robert Johnson, Chuck Berry, BB King, Freddy King, and every other American blues player that came before Eric plugged into a JTM45 together with Leo Fender’s amps, led to the inevitability of “English Blues”. You should probably throw in Buddy Holly and Elvis in there as well. And Don’t forget some of Clapton’s English contemporaries like Keith, Brian, George and John.


Jeff Beck tone is what started it all. Listen to 5 Live Yardbirds then listen to Beck Yardbirds.

Beck was already tone experimenting when EC was doing scales. Only those who actually saw the Yardbirds with Beck live would understand.

Heres just some blues:

 

rialcnis

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Jeff Beck had that LesPaul influence early on, mixed with the old bluesmen and he was into the feedback streams and originality.

he also turned the volume knob up first.

 

CatManDoo88

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Messages
156
Jeff Beck tone is what started it all. Listen to 5 Live Yardbirds then listen to Beck Yardbirds.

Beck was already tone experimenting when EC was doing scales. Only those who actually saw the Yardbirds with Beck live would understand.

Heres just some blues:

Jeff Beck had that LesPaul influence early on, mixed with the old bluesmen and he was into the feedback streams and originality.

he also turned the volume knob up first.

Umm, the Clapton songs on Five Live Yardbirds were recorded in 1964. There was a lot of swift moving development in the London music scene between when the Clapton tracks were recorded and Beck replaced Clapton in the Yardbirds. The Beck Yardbirds tracks you reference were recorded November/December 1965 (New York City Blues) and 1966 (The Nazz are Blue). Beck was still playing his Esquire in 1965. The whole Clapton with a Les Paul and Marshall started in May/June 1965 and he was already recording stuff like this in the summer of 1965:

This is where Beck's playing was in summer 1965:

The idea that Beck started it all and was "already tone experimenting when EC was doing scales" is laughable. Your chronology is way out of whack.
 
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rialcnis

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Umm, the Clapton songs on Five Live Yardbirds were recorded in 1964. There was a lot of swift moving development in the London music scene between when the Clapton tracks were recorded and Beck replaced Clapton in the Yardbirds. The Beck Yardbirds tracks you reference were recorded November/December 1965 (New York City Blues) and 1966 (The Nazz are Blue). Beck was still playing his Esquire in 1965. The whole Clapton with a Les Paul and Marshall started in May/June 1965 and he was already recording stuff like this in the summer of 1965:



The idea that Beck started it all and was "already tone experimenting when EC was doing scales" is laughable. Your chronology is way out of whack.


it's laughable all right.

I was there. Everyone was in total awe of Jeff Beck. His tone and originality. When I mentioned Les Paul, as early influence, of Beck, I was taking about Les Paul himself. Many of us old timers grew up with him on the TV.

The For your Love album was released in July 1965. The Tracks with Clapton were the existing early singles and flip sides and the Stand out tracks were Beck, I ain't done wrong and I'm not talking. Listen to it. Everyone who heard Beck including Hendrix, changed their TONE overnight. Beck invented it with a leap.

In Hollywood any young fella that saw the first Yardbirds tour had their minds blown. Either they started experimenting, or they bought a guitar. Listen to pre Beck Hendrix. It was the tone and originality of Beck that changed it all. Just repeating Blues riffs and scales, was just not the same as Jeff Beck.. Beck started playing a Les Paul on the Roger album and live. I saw it on Catalina Island in Aug 1966.

at the time they all admitted it, including Hendrix.



 
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rialcnis

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Beck was not only changing the tone, he created entirely new riffs.

He wasn't just playing old riffs with more volume and tone.

 

rialcnis

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On this thread people were debating who was better, with the Bluesbreakers, Clapton or Green. They were both great. I saw both on all their Whisky appearances. At the time I think I thought Peter Green's tone/sound was more mesmerizing, but both were great.

In the middle of 1966 Cream kicked off. I loved them too. I saw them on their first tour at the Whisky every show. On stage they were extending the instrumentals and they were excessively loud. Standing in front of Clapton's amp I went deaf nearly a month. I watched his hand close up. His instrumentals were repetative scales for twenty minutes. I loved Cream, but they weren't The Yardbirds and Clapton was not Jeff Beck.

There was a reason Page recommended Beck to replace Clapton. Beck was a sensation with the Tridents since 1963. He was doing his own thing way back when. He was not one to copy anyone. There are a couple of their songs on youtube.
 

sidekick

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We all know that both EC's and PG's playing with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers was so very special. EC's playing was initially an inspiration to PG that he rose to. In that sense, EC led the way, but for me PG eclipsed EC in touch/feel and it probably boils down to whose tone we each prefer.

Mike Vernon who recorded both is down as saying that while he felt EC had a certain 'fire', he felt that PG back then had a more 'pure blues'.
 

lhric

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Aug 3, 2007
Messages
197
We all know that both EC's and PG's playing with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers was so very special. EC's playing was initially an inspiration to PG that he rose to. In that sense, EC led the way, but for me PG eclipsed EC in touch/feel and it probably boils down to whose tone we each prefer.

Mike Vernon who recorded both is down as saying that while he felt EC had a certain 'fire', he felt that PG back then had a more 'pure blues'.

There is a new album coming out next month featuring early or the original Fleetwood Mac 1968-1970 with newly discovered live material and studio demo stuff which the master tapes were found here in the US unlabeled but in excellent condition.
 

57gold

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Cool bootleg of Greenie...dig the photo and pretty nice tone happening.

 

AA00475Bassman

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I like this song so much , this was one of the first songs I learned how to play some 40+ years back . Great playing although lacks the spice Clapton added just my hack opinion .
 
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