• Guys, we've spent considerable money converting the Les Paul Forum to this new XenForo platform, and we have ongoing monthly operating expenses. THE "DONATIONS" TAB IS NOW WORKING, AND WE WOULD APPRECIATE ANY DONATIONS YOU CAN MAKE TO KEEP THE LES PAUL FORUM GOING! Thank you!

Peter Green Les Paul tone

Bruce R

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2007
Messages
1,029
It has been my experience, in having two different humbucking-equipped Les Pauls with the magnets flipped, that when the selector switch is set to engage both pickups (middle position) that the out-of-phase tone is best achieved when one or the other volume control is backed off at bit. Just as it doesn't matter which of the two pickups has the flipped magnet, it doesn't matter which pickup you have the volume backed off on. Try it both ways and see which best suits your ears.

A few years ago when I was voraciously listening to Peter (well, I still am) and I did this to my guitars. It was cool for a while, but after a couple of years I found that I preferred the stock tone of the middle position, found it more versatile, and switched them back. It is actually quite easy to do.

Don't forget that B.B. (355) and Freddie (345) utilized this tone prior to Peter.
 

goldtop0

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
8,931
The flipped magnet middle position tone is distinctive for sure however I never warmed to it at all.
Got some PAFs out of a '61 LP Custom a long time ago and when playing the guitar noticed this middle position 'quack', I thought there was something wrong with the middle pup at the time but bought the three of them anyway.........you should have seen me over the years trying to sort out which pup had the flipped magnet.........never did get to the bottom of it.
One of the forum members bought one of the three from me some many years later and he found the magnet had been flipped.........and so it goes.
 

au_rick

Active member
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
871
If you haven;t seen this, its great to hear JImmy reference Peter here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNaVDocH1CU

Thanks, I have seen that a few times.

I like to play Whole Lotta Love out of phase, it just doesn't sound right o me otherwise, but others tell me there is no out of phase on that track ?
The fist "Jimmy Page Les Paul" I ever played from the 90's had a coil tap, rather than a phase switch !

Also, interesting that Jimmy refers to the neck as being "scalloped"
 

au_rick

Active member
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
871
Yup, wired OOF sounds overly thin. I cannot get the all the cool variations of quack with a phase switch. The minute you change any one pickups vol, the effect goes away.

Flipping the magnet sounds louder. You get maximum effect with both pickups volume equal, wether both on 10 or both on 4. You can blend more or less of one to the other to shape the quack and even wide shifts, Bridge pup 9- Neck pup 3 still has a slight, noticeable effect.

You can also use both tone controls to shade the tone of the quack.

Just tried flipping the magnet on two different pickups I have and alone they both now sound softer than before, agree that the middle position does sound louder than if the pickups were wired out of phase without a series / parallel switch. Maybe different caps will accentuate the quack with flipped magnets ?
 

Jon Brook

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Messages
177
if you are after the sound ..then Bare Knuckle's PG Blues do the job ..apparently Gary Moore heard a set and thought they sounded authentic..
 

duaneflowers

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
2,522
Yup, wired OOF sounds overly thin. I cannot get the all the cool variations of quack with a phase switch. The minute you change any one pickups vol, the effect goes away.

Flipping the magnet sounds louder. You get maximum effect with both pickups volume equal, wether both on 10 or both on 4. You can blend more or less of one to the other to shape the quack and even wide shifts, Bridge pup 9- Neck pup 3 still has a slight, noticeable effect.

You can also use both tone controls to shade the tone of the quack.

This!! As usual, Big Al summed it up better in a few sentences than many pages-long threads I've endured... :salude
 

El Gringo

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,657
It has been my experience, in having two different humbucking-equipped Les Pauls with the magnets flipped, that when the selector switch is set to engage both pickups (middle position) that the out-of-phase tone is best achieved when one or the other volume control is backed off at bit. Just as it doesn't matter which of the two pickups has the flipped magnet, it doesn't matter which pickup you have the volume backed off on. Try it both ways and see which best suits your ears.

A few years ago when I was voraciously listening to Peter (well, I still am) and I did this to my guitars. It was cool for a while, but after a couple of years I found that I preferred the stock tone of the middle position, found it more versatile, and switched them back. It is actually quite easy to do.

Don't forget that B.B. (355) and Freddie (345) utilized this tone prior to Peter.
I remember seeing B.B. live so many times and him using the middle (both pickups) position and his tone was so delicious and I never got enough joy and was always hungry for more . God Bless You Riley King !!!!!!!!!
 

The Shifter

Active member
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
3,397
Question:

On "Stop Messin' 'Round" that was cut at Chess, is that middle position Greeny quack, or is that just the straight bridge pickup? Also, not related to pickups, but is the consensus that he's playing through a BF Fender combo on that track?
 

agogetr

Active member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
451
Greeny's pickup could have happened in the factory or during a repair. There are legends...

Joe B. has/had a factory original 1959 'Burst that had the same pickup anomaly as Greeny. It may have happened in other Gibsons (335s, 175s, etc.) at the advent of the humbucker era. After all, the 345, 355 and LP Custom intentionally had humbuckers with a flipped magnet and these instruments represent a significant portion of humbucker equipped guitars from 1958-1961.

In any event, magnetic OOP is pretty cool! It opens a big box of possibilities!
'things' happened at gibson. i,ve seen a few out of the closet(and /or straight up) orange label hollowbody electrics with the model designations writen in 2 diferent colors of ink. the people that worked at gibson were human. some of them ugly humans after looking at the old prewar photos. dang those guys some of them looked like they had been there since 1898 lol true craftsmen though. somewhat of a lost art in my clouded opinion
 

duaneflowers

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
2,522
Greeny's pickup could have happened in the factory or during a repair. There are legends...

Joe B. has/had a factory original 1959 'Burst that had the same pickup anomaly as Greeny. It may have happened in other Gibsons (335s, 175s, etc.) at the advent of the humbucker era. After all, the 345, 355 and LP Custom intentionally had humbuckers with a flipped magnet and these instruments represent a significant portion of humbucker equipped guitars from 1958-1961.

In any event, magnetic OOP is pretty cool! It opens a big box of possibilities!

That "Joe B. has/had a factory original 1959 'Burst that had the same pickup anomaly as Greeny" is just not possible... Greeny's neck pickup was (re)wound at some point with poly wire (which was never used by Gibson on PAFs). Further the lead was gray conductor wire... which was also never used by Gibson on PAFs. There are plenty of reports of magnets having been installed backwards... creating that OOP effect... but the pup in Greeny went beyond that. The poly wire (used more on Fenders than Gibsons at the time) added its own dimensions as did the shape of the wind, which did not follow the PAF EQ curve.

Flipping the magnet or reverse winding the pickup would produce the exact same tones, although, as Big Al pointed out, the dynamics are different. Fender winders ran in the opposite direction... so its highly possible that Sam Li (or whoever worked on it) was just using what was available... Fender style wire and a Fender style winding machine.

Either way, PG did indeed squeeze some amazing tonez out of those pups, which, when combined with the unique tonal characteristics of that Burst was not only unique, but sonically unparalleled IMHO. :salude
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
That "Joe B. has/had a factory original 1959 'Burst that had the same pickup anomaly as Greeny" is just not possible...

I think he is referring to Bursts that were out of phase from the factory. Joe has [at least] one, and my Donna is that way. I have owned a few others.
Not the real "Peter Green out of phase" set up, but the result is similar. :)
 

agogetr

Active member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
451
if i may interject.. bb was never my thing. kind of an amatuer lead player and just not for me. however years ago (many years ago) my older brother got a job running lights for bb's show. he wanted to meet bb really bad because my brother is also a guitar player. he got up the nerve to knock on bb;s door and bb said(through the door) who are you? and my brother said its s.....n i run the lights and bb said s...n! come on in! my brother said bb was the warmest most embracing and awesome dude he ever met. he said bb thanked him because my brother knew just when to throw the spotlight when "the king"was throwing down. when you hear storiies about how nice bb was ... its true. he made my brother feel so welcome. ... johny rivers? well that is another story.
I remember seeing B.B. live so many times and him using the middle (both pickups) position and his tone was so delicious and I never got enough joy and was always hungry for more . God Bless You Riley King !!!!!!!!!
 

agogetr

Active member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
451
tom what happened with the early firebird seven? that switch in the middle talk about out of phase!!!!
I think he is referring to Bursts that were out of phase from the factory. Joe has [at least] one, and my Donna is that way. I have owned a few others.
Not the real "Peter Green out of phase" set up, but the result is similar. :)
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
tom what happened with the early firebird seven? that switch in the middle talk about out of phase!!!!

I don't know anything about Firebird VII wiring, and I don't understand what it has to do with Peter Green. :hmm
 

goldtop0

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
8,931
however years ago (many years ago) my older brother got a job running lights for bb's show. he wanted to meet bb really bad because my brother is also a guitar player. he got up the nerve to knock on bb;s door and bb said(through the door) who are you? and my brother said its s.....n i run the lights and bb said s...n! come on in! my brother said bb was the warmest most embracing and awesome dude he ever met. he said bb thanked him because my brother knew just when to throw the spotlight when "the king"was throwing down. when you hear storiies about how nice bb was ... its true. he made my brother feel so welcome. ... johny rivers? well that is another story.


Met BB outside after his show in Brisbane in '73. He was just the most natural and warm person you could hope to meet, he gave me the pick he'd used that night.
A real gentleman, God bless him.
 

agogetr

Active member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
451
I don't know anything about Firebird VII wiring, and I don't understand what it has to do with Peter Green. :hmm
referring to Bursts that were out of phase from the factory i just wanted to mention the firebird as it was also out of phase from the factory, and probably not many of those built either. i also dont know how its wired!
 
Top