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60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

JPP-1

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Jul 11, 2006
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1,336
I've never understood these types of threads. How is the 60th comparable to an original or HM anymore than any other recent historic. Wouldn't how do the 2017/2018/2019 brazilian board Les Pauls compare to HMs and originals be more apropos.

Do folks realize that 60th is fundamentally the same R Les Paul Gibson has been making since 2017. The only tonal "improvements" for the 60th are "unspotted" CBs, and luxe bees and vintage taper pots. The improved pots and caps can be added to any historic and the only wax potting I've seen on my CBs was between pickup and cover. Calling them improvements for 2019 is fine with me, but they don't compensate for the use of Pau Ferro in some 2019s which, sonic qualities aside, is not a true Rosewood. Calling it Bolivian Rosewood is almost as bad as calling synthetic leather made in Mexico fine Mayan Leather.


Typical post on these threads, I bought a 201Y R9 and it killed my 201X R9, therefore all 201Y R9s must be superior to all 201X. It's suggested logic like this that actually makes me fear for our democracy. Try a bunch of Les Pauls, the one you like the best is the one. These are guitars made out of wood not iPhones.
 

pqs

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May 31, 2019
Messages
109
I've never understood these types of threads. How is the 60th comparable to an original or HM anymore than any other recent historic. Wouldn't how do the 2017/2018/2019 brazilian board Les Pauls compare to HMs and originals be more apropos.

Do folks realize that 60th is fundamentally the same R Les Paul Gibson has been making since 2017. The only tonal "improvements" for the 60th are "unspotted" CBs, and luxe bees and vintage taper pots. The improved pots and caps can be added to any historic and the only wax potting I've seen on my CBs was between pickup and cover. Calling them improvements for 2019 is fine with me, but they don't compensate for the use of Pau Ferro in some 2019s which, sonic qualities aside, is not a true Rosewood. Calling it Bolivian Rosewood is almost as bad as calling synthetic leather made in Mexico fine Mayan Leather.


Typical post on these threads, I bought a 201Y R9 and it killed my 201X R9, therefore all 201Y R9s must be superior to all 201X. It's suggested logic like this that actually makes me fear for our democracy. Try a bunch of Les Pauls, the one you like the best is the one. These are guitars made out of wood not iPhones.

Well, the name of the type of Pau Ferro happens to be called Bolivian Rosewood. Gibson didn’t come up with that name. Regardless of your opinion on its effect on sound and feel, it’s not justifiable to list it as a downgrade, because there are plenty 60th Anniversary R9’s with Indian Rosewood.

There is also the evolution of the neck carve. They seem to have slimmed down over the years as well as losing some of its shoulders. I also suspect the nylon of the nut is different, but I’m not 100% sure.

Was it in 2017 that they started using hide glue for the top? My understanding is that they used titebond, then at certain point the changed to hide glue, but I can’t remember the exact year. Interestingly, I’ve heard that on the original bursts hide glue wasn’t even used for gluing the maple top to the mahogany body, but phenol formaldehyde resin.

Totally agree on going out and trying them in person.
 

guitplayer

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Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
2,114
I don`t know how the wildwood specs for a 60th anniv. would fall into
comparison. But those cheap pots in there have to go. Vintage taper or not.:)

Wildwood specs.
Brand Gibson Custom Shop
Model 60th Anniversary 1959 Les Paul Standard
Finish Color Kindred Burst
Weight 8.93 lbs.
Top Wood Hand-Selected Maple
Body Wood Mahogany with No Weight Relief
Neck Wood Mahogany
Neck Shape Authentic '59 Medium C-Shape
Neck Dimensions .880 1st - .990 12th
Fingerboard Hand-Selected Indian Rosewood, Hide Glue Fit
Fingerboard Radius 12"
Inlays Celluloid Trapezoids
Scale Length 24.75"
Width at Nut 1.695"
Frets 22
Pickups Wildwood Spec Custombuckers
Controls CTS 500K Audio Taper Potentiometers, Paper-in-Oil Capacitors
Hardware Nickel
Bridge No-Wire ABR-1
Plastics Aged Vintage-Style
Tailpiece Lightweight Aluminum Stop Bar
Tuners Kluson Single Line, Single Ring
Case Brown/Pink Lifton Reissue 5-Latch
COA Yes
 
Last edited:

latestarter

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2009
Messages
4,173
Typical post on these threads, I bought a 201Y R9 and it killed my 201X R9, therefore all 201Y R9s must be superior to all 201X. It's suggested logic like this that actually makes me fear for our democracy. Try a bunch of Les Pauls, the one you like the best is the one. These are guitars made out of wood not iPhones.

I did’t get that from this thread at all...but I do agree with you about choosing the best one. In my case the 60th simply allows me to run different setup from the 40th. It certainly doesn’t kill it!
 

JPP-1

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
1,336
Well, the name of the type of Pau Ferro happens to be called Bolivian Rosewood. Gibson didn’t come up with that name. Regardless of your opinion on its effect on sound and feel, it’s not justifiable to list it as a downgrade, because there are plenty 60th Anniversary R9’s with Indian Rosewood.

There is also the evolution of the neck carve. They seem to have slimmed down over the years as well as losing some of its shoulders. I also suspect the nylon of the nut is different, but I’m not 100% sure.

Was it in 2017 that they started using hide glue for the top? My understanding is that they used titebond, then at certain point the changed to hide glue, but I can’t remember the exact year. Interestingly, I’ve heard that on the original bursts hide glue wasn’t even used for gluing the maple top to the mahogany body, but phenol formaldehyde resin.

Totally agree on going out and trying them in person.

I wasn't trying to imply it was a downgrade in the tonal sense. In fact I made a point of saying "sonic qualities aside". I do think that calling Pau Ferro Bolivian Rosewood is the essence of false advertising. Someone unaware could likely infer that Bolivian Rosewood being Rosewood from Bolivia is closer to Brazilian Rosewood than Indian Rosewood when in fact Bolivian Rosewood unlike Indian Rosewood is not a true Rosewood Doesn't it make it better or worse in my book. But it might for those who have a fixation on specs hence my point.

I believe the hide glued top started with the True Historic spec guitars and was carried over for 2017 and on.

The neck carves on my 2018 Brazilians are a noticeably smaller than the neck on my 2015 True Historic. The 60ths I tried had that similar neck carve to my 2018 which i think is a good thing. Anything smaller afaic would be really more of a 1960 spec.
 

pqs

Active member
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May 31, 2019
Messages
109
I wasn't trying to imply it was a downgrade in the tonal sense. In fact I made a point of saying "sonic qualities aside". I do think that calling Pau Ferro Bolivian Rosewood is the essence of false advertising. Someone unaware could likely infer that Bolivian Rosewood being Rosewood from Bolivia is closer to Brazilian Rosewood than Indian Rosewood when in fact Bolivian Rosewood unlike Indian Rosewood is not a true Rosewood Doesn't it make it better or worse in my book. But it might for those who have a fixation on specs hence my point.

I believe the hide glued top started with the True Historic spec guitars and was carried over for 2017 and on.

The neck carves on my 2018 Brazilians are a noticeably smaller than the neck on my 2015 True Historic. The 60ths I tried had that similar neck carve to my 2018 which i think is a good thing. Anything smaller afaic would be really more of a 1960 spec.

Bolivian Rosewood is the actual name of a type of Pau Ferro. There is also a different type called Brazilian Ironwood. Interestingly Pau Ferro is Portuguese for iron wood. How is it false advertisement. Bolivian Rosewood wasn’t a name coined by Gibson. It got its name due to the visual similarities with Indian Rosewood.
 

JPP-1

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Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
1,336
Bolivian Rosewood is the actual name of a type of Pau Ferro. There is also a different type called Brazilian Ironwood. Interestingly Pau Ferro is Portuguese for iron wood. How is it false advertisement. Bolivian Rosewood wasn’t a name coined by Gibson. It got its name due to the visual similarities with Indian Rosewood.

Is it actually? Is that the actual scientific name or it's marketing name derived by those with a commercial interest in the wood? look up the definition on false advertising if this concept eludes you. Someone buying Bolivian Rosewood may think they are actually getting a true Rosewood when they are not. So that would be the text book definition of false advertising.

Years ago I almost bought a Custom Shop Bolivian Rosewood Martin. I thought Bolivian Rosewood might be the closest Rosewood to Brazilian and I'm sure that's exactly what those commercially interested in rebranding this Pau Ferro intended. Suffice it to say when I found out Bolivian Rosewood wasn't even a true Rosewood I bought the Martin with Madagascar Rosewood.

Whether Pau Ferro is a better or worse tone wood is not something I commented on and frankly irrelevant to my point. I don't know why anyone would even argue with what is pretty much a prima facie case. The makers of Richlite could call it North American cultured Ebony but it ain't ebony and neither is Pau ferro Rosewood.
 

GotTheSilver

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Apr 14, 2007
Messages
2,433
Calling it Bolivian Rosewood is almost as bad as calling synthetic leather made in Mexico fine Mayan Leather.

Oh, man! Do you mean that my Mayan Leather g-string banana hammock undies from Tijuana are not all I thought they were???? Maybe that is why get the chafing!
 

pqs

Active member
Joined
May 31, 2019
Messages
109
Is it actually? Is that the actual scientific name or it's marketing name derived by those with a commercial interest in the wood? look up the definition on false advertising if this concept eludes you. Someone buying Bolivian Rosewood may think they are actually getting a true Rosewood when they are not. So that would be the text book definition of false advertising.

Years ago I almost bought a Custom Shop Bolivian Rosewood Martin. I thought Bolivian Rosewood might be the closest Rosewood to Brazilian and I'm sure that's exactly what those commercially interested in rebranding this Pau Ferro intended. Suffice it to say when I found out Bolivian Rosewood wasn't even a true Rosewood I bought the Martin with Madagascar Rosewood.

Whether Pau Ferro is a better or worse tone wood is not something I commented on and frankly irrelevant to my point. I don't know why anyone would even argue with what is pretty much a prima facie case. The makers of Richlite could call it North American cultured Ebony but it ain't ebony and neither is Pau ferro Rosewood.


The botanical names are seldom used. Those are usually in Latin and hard to pronounce. I don’t know how else to explain this, but Pau Ferro is a set and Bolivian Rosewood is one of its elements. All Bolivian Rosewood is Pau Ferro, but not all Pau Ferro are Bolivian Rosewood. Just like all sequoias are Redwoods, but not all redwoods are sequoia.
 

JPP-1

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Jul 11, 2006
Messages
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The botanical names are seldom used. Those are usually in Latin and hard to pronounce. I don’t know how else to explain this, but Pau Ferro is a set and Bolivian Rosewood is one of its elements. All Bolivian Rosewood is Pau Ferro, but not all Pau Ferro are Bolivian Rosewood. Just like all sequoias are Redwoods, but not all redwoods are sequoia.

I understand perfectly what you are saying about Bolivian Rosewood being a “type” of Pau Ferro just as red spruce is a type of spruce. However, NO type of Pau Ferro is a true Rosewood just as no type of Spruce is Maple. Therefore, how can you disagree that calling it such is not misleading. I myself was almost misled.

Again, I am not disparaging the tonal qualities of Pau Ferro in any of its types as fretboard material. It’s just not a true rosewood and therefore shouldn’t be marketed as such.
 

guitplayer

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Mar 8, 2008
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HM and a 60th. I`ve spent more time with the R8 and got it
just right. The 60th has alot of potential. Far as the board...I like the feel of the 60th`s board.
Very vintage. But I would guess its all depends on the individual guitar.
 

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pqs

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I understand perfectly what you are saying about Bolivian Rosewood being a “type” of Pau Ferro just as red spruce is a type of spruce. However, NO type of Pau Ferro is a true Rosewood just as no type of Spruce is Maple. Therefore, how can you disagree that calling it such is not misleading. I myself was almost misled.

Again, I am not disparaging the tonal qualities of Pau Ferro in any of its types as fretboard material. It’s just not a true rosewood and therefore shouldn’t be marketed as such.

Sorry I didn't think you understood my point. I agree that Bolivian Rosewood can be misleading, but I think these names are coined before biologists properly classifies these species. For instance, Jacarnadá Paulista (translates to São Paulo Jacaraná) is not Jacarandá, which is the coveted Brazilian Rosewood. The latter comes from the state of Bahia and is longways north of São Paulo. Another example, is African Mahogany, which I've seen people argue is similar but not true Mahogany. I think it is more to do with the naming conventions of the lumber industry, than it is the guitar industry itself.

With that said, I empathize for your experience with the Martin spec sheets. I love Martin guitars, but their spec pages can be tough to decipher. For instances, they list X-bracing on a load of guitars that have the hybrid X-bracing, one of which is the John Mayer signature model. I only figured that out, because I realized that every Martin with simple dove-tail neck joint had the hybrid bracing, but I digress.
 

pqs

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Joined
May 31, 2019
Messages
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HM and a 60th. I`ve spent more time with the R8 and got it
just right. The 60th has alot of potential. Far as the board...I like the feel of the 60th`s board.
Very vintage. But I would guess its all depends on the individual guitar.

Just wow. I'm assuming the R8 HM is the one on the left and the 60th is a kindred burst on the right? They look amazing. That board on the 60th really look amazing. Very dark and smooth looking. My 60th R9's board is much lighter in color, so yeah it depends a lot on individual guitars. Another thing to keep in mind, or you might want to investigate, is that if the 60th R9 is truly a kindred burst, all of the kindred bursts I've seen so far had Bolivian Rosewood (Pau Ferro) boards. In terms of feel I prefer the Bolivian boards, because they tend to be smoother than actual Indian Rosewood. I also like that whatever CITES friendly boards Gibson is using on these R9s, they look much darker than the Pau Ferro you usually see on Epiphone and MIM Fender.
 

JPP-1

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Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
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Sorry I didn't think you understood my point. I agree that Bolivian Rosewood can be misleading, but I think these names are coined before biologists properly classifies these species. For instance, Jacarnadá Paulista (translates to São Paulo Jacaraná) is not Jacarandá, which is the coveted Brazilian Rosewood. The latter comes from the state of Bahia and is longways north of São Paulo. Another example, is African Mahogany, which I've seen people argue is similar but not true Mahogany. I think it is more to do with the naming conventions of the lumber industry, than it is the guitar industry itself.

With that said, I empathize for your experience with the Martin spec sheets. I love Martin guitars, but their spec pages can be tough to decipher. For instances, they list X-bracing on a load of guitars that have the hybrid X-bracing, one of which is the John Mayer signature model. I only figured that out, because I realized that every Martin with simple dove-tail neck joint had the hybrid bracing, but I digress.

Martin now to me seems more confusing than ever. Before you had a D28 with straight bracing, an HD28 with scalloped bracing and an HD28V with forward shifted scalloped bracing. Now it seems more muddled. I have a John Mayer OM -great guitar whatever bracing is used. At the time it was the only smaller body full length option with 1 11/16 nut. Don't get me wrong, JM is one of the great ones afaic, but I'm usually not a signature guitar guy.
 

TM1

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Jun 27, 2003
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8,349
Thanks everyone for your interesting(to say the least) commentary. If I send it to HM I would have a Brazilian Board installed. I will also replace the pickups and pots. I do know my 2002 R-0 is a really great guitar and I have played a lot of 50’s Les Pauls. The R-0 has a little something extra that most reissues don’t have. So I feel pretty lucky to have this one!
 
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