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  1. #1
    Les Paul Forum Member TM1's Avatar
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    60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    I'm seriously considering purchasing a 60th Anni. `59 LP. I was wondering if anyone here has compared them to an original 58-60 LP or to an Historic Makeovers.
    I'd love to hear some opinions/observations. I'd like to know how the Bolivian Rosewood compares to Braz or Indian RW.
    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    If you have a chance to play all of them, do that. Otherwise check tons of YouTube vids and pick the one sounds the best.

    That is how I roll.

    Quote Originally Posted by TM1 View Post
    I'm seriously considering purchasing a 60th Anni. `59 LP. I was wondering if anyone here has compared them to an original 58-60 LP or to an Historic Makeovers.
    I'd love to hear some opinions/observations. I'd like to know how the Bolivian Rosewood compares to Braz or Indian RW.
    Thanks!

  3. #3
    Les Paul Forum Member guitplayer's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    I have both an Anniv and a 2005 HM.
    Weight of the anniv. is better/lighter. The pickups I have in my HM are old duncan 59`s.
    The pickups in the anniv are underwound. Tone is killer, but output not the same as the HM.
    Pots in the anniv ,I would replace.
    Board on the anniv. is very much like a vintage 50`s Braz. I think my HM has a Madagascar board.
    Wood selection(top, back, board) on the wildwood anniv. is spectacular. Mine has aged plastic(s).
    Unplugged... the anniv sounds better. FWTW.
    Both guitars are very cool. I like the anniv better...at the moment.

  4. #4
    Les Paul Forum Member Patek's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    I have an anniversary 59 LP and recently selling an original 53 LP

    the specs are different in terms of pickups and bridge piece etc

    however if we compare like for like, unplugged - the 53 is an entirely different league.

    the fit and finish of the anniversary 59 is absolutely immaculate, itís stunning, beautiful, perfect. But compare to a vintage guitar it has that slight plastic feel to it, as most modern guitars do. Gibson have tried but the nitro and finishing is nothing like an original
    the patina of an original les paul is to die for no matter what the condition. Only HM and Florian, Bartlett etc have a chance of getting that accurate, Gibson ( TM) havenít got a hope in hell and they look pretend from a Mile away

    played unplugged the original LP vibrates in a way like no other guitar, the body and set the neck are like 1. They resonate and vibrate as if it was carved out of 1 piece of wood. The old original glues join together like glass. It has to be felt and heard first hand. No clip or video will pick it up

    The bolivian rosewood on the anniversary 59 is far darker than the actual Brazilian on the 53. Itís the darkest board Iíve ever seen and could be confused with ebony in the wrong lighting. Itís super dark and absolutely gorgeous.

    If I could afford it, Iíd buy an amazing anniversary 59 - and have Florian strip it back and refinish it to correct 59 spec with decent patina. My current anniversary 59 has a quilt top so suits the modern style more. Iíve got bare knuckle miracle man pickups in it so itís a metal machine. Doesnít sound vintage at all anymore. The new custombuckers are too low output and chewy for me, they struggle with fast runs and cannot handle more than mid-gain before they flub out

  5. #5
    Les Paul Forum Member TM1's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Thanks Guys! I have two Historic Makeovers(a 2002 R-0 & a 2007 R-4) both have Braz boards and both got the full RDS treatment. I have a 1959 LP Special and a 1960 Melody Maker, double pickup. I have vintage pickups/pots/caps in all. I did put a set of early, early Pat.#'s in the Melody Maker. The difference between them and PAF's is only the sticker.
    Most likely if I found one I like I'd send it to Kim to be refinished. I've played probably 50-60 original LP's so quiet familiar with all of the nuances of the originals. Thanks!

  6. #6

    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Patek View Post
    I have an anniversary 59 LP and recently selling an original 53 LP

    the specs are different in terms of pickups and bridge piece etc

    however if we compare like for like, unplugged - the 53 is an entirely different league.

    the fit and finish of the anniversary 59 is absolutely immaculate, itís stunning, beautiful, perfect. But compare to a vintage guitar it has that slight plastic feel to it, as most modern guitars do. Gibson have tried but the nitro and finishing is nothing like an original
    the patina of an original les paul is to die for no matter what the condition. Only HM and Florian, Bartlett etc have a chance of getting that accurate, Gibson ( TM) havenít got a hope in hell and they look pretend from a Mile away

    played unplugged the original LP vibrates in a way like no other guitar, the body and set the neck are like 1. They resonate and vibrate as if it was carved out of 1 piece of wood. The old original glues join together like glass. It has to be felt and heard first hand. No clip or video will pick it up

    The bolivian rosewood on the anniversary 59 is far darker than the actual Brazilian on the 53. Itís the darkest board Iíve ever seen and could be confused with ebony in the wrong lighting. Itís super dark and absolutely gorgeous.

    If I could afford it, Iíd buy an amazing anniversary 59 - and have Florian strip it back and refinish it to correct 59 spec with decent patina. My current anniversary 59 has a quilt top so suits the modern style more. Iíve got bare knuckle miracle man pickups in it so itís a metal machine. Doesnít sound vintage at all anymore. The new custombuckers are too low output and chewy for me, they struggle with fast runs and cannot handle more than mid-gain before they flub out
    I actually was toying with the idea of sending my Sandy for the full makeover treatment to get the finish spot on but the luthier i go to advised me against it, saying that my guitar sounds really good as it is and he has seen bursts with the same shade of colour as mine. (i really hate the gooey, plastic-ky feel it has though)

    His proposed alternative, should i want to scratch my itch was basically the same idea as yours Ė get the new anniversary 59 and send it to Kim. He said he's seen three or four come into this shop and he has been mightily impressed by how good they've been so far.

  7. #7
    Les Paul Forum Member Patek's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by iknowpeanuts View Post
    I actually was toying with the idea of sending my Sandy for the full makeover treatment to get the finish spot on but the luthier i go to advised me against it, saying that my guitar sounds really good as it is and he has seen bursts with the same shade of colour as mine. (i really hate the gooey, plastic-ky feel it has though)

    His proposed alternative, should i want to scratch my itch was basically the same idea as yours Ė get the new anniversary 59 and send it to Kim. He said he's seen three or four come into this shop and he has been mightily impressed by how good they've been so far.
    That would be my grail LP

    aside from that, it would be to commission a Bartlett

  8. #8
    Les Paul Forum Member CatManDoo88's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by TM1 View Post
    Thanks Guys! I have two Historic Makeovers(a 2002 R-0 & a 2007 R-4) both have Braz boards and both got the full RDS treatment. I have a 1959 LP Special and a 1960 Melody Maker, double pickup. I have vintage pickups/pots/caps in all. I did put a set of early, early Pat.#'s in the Melody Maker. The difference between them and PAF's is only the sticker.
    Most likely if I found one I like I'd send it to Kim to be refinished. I've played probably 50-60 original LP's so quiet familiar with all of the nuances of the originals. Thanks!
    Is the 2002 R0 your Beano tribute or was that a different guitar you don't have anymore? If I recall correctly, there are some old posts about you having HM do a Beano tribute for you. If so, do you by chance have any pictures (the links in the old threads don't work anymore)? I'm curious because I just sent my Les Paul to HM for a Deluxe Makeover and the Beano Burst is my inspiration... Curious about how yours turned out.

  9. #9
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Play and see what you like. Never understood this Historic Makeover thing. What’s the point? The Historic’s is great as they are.

  10. #10
    Les Paul Forum Member pqs's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    I agree. Play and see what you like. With that said, my 60th Anniversary R9 was the best Les Paul I've ever played. I bonded with it the second I played it at the store. It felt so familiar to me, it was as if I had already owned the guitar for several years. I've had great guitar before and several stories of immediately loving the guitar, but never to this degree. I ended up selling several guitar, including a 2017 Standard HP and a 2017 R0(G0), both flawless, to pay for my R9. It was the best guitar purchase I've ever made.

  11. #11
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by pqs View Post
    I agree. Play and see what you like. With that said, my 60th Anniversary R9 was the best Les Paul I've ever played. I bonded with it the second I played it at the store. It felt so familiar to me, it was as if I had already owned the guitar for several years. I've had great guitar before and several stories of immediately loving the guitar, but never to this degree. I ended up selling several guitar, including a 2017 Standard HP and a 2017 R0(G0), both flawless, to pay for my R9. It was the best guitar purchase I've ever made.
    What does GO on the R0 stand for?

  12. #12
    Les Paul Forum Member pqs's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Mats A View Post
    What does GO on the R0 stand for?
    Guitar Center exclusive runs of R0s, which have serial number starting with G0 instead of R0 (2016), CS0 (2015) or 0 (2017-present) depending of the year. The only differences are the lack of the thumb bleeders and a plainer, lightly figured tops more akin to R8s. Although, I've seen several, including mine, that were significantly more figured than the Gibson USA current standard AA tops. Yet some of the figuring can only be seen in certain angles. On mine, it was the figuring on the lower bout that weren't as pronounced when you looked down from a playing position. They also, as far as I know, are only available in Gloss finish and don't have a VOS option. As far as I know, each run was only available in one finish option. Mine was a dark burst, which I believe was based on the finish of the 1959 LP on page 129 of Beauty of the Burst, but I've seem earlier versions that were honeyburts as well as other bursts. Mine had long neck tenon and non-PIO bumblebee capacitors, which some call it fake bumblebees, that were used in other R0s prior to 2019. I think they are a great deal, since you get all the non-cosmetic features of a regular R0, but pay around $4,500 for a new one, which is $2,000 less than a regular R0.

  13. #13
    Les Paul Forum Member latestarter's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by TM1 View Post
    I'm seriously considering purchasing a 60th Anni. `59 LP. I was wondering if anyone here has compared them to an original 58-60 LP or to an Historic Makeovers.
    I'd love to hear some opinions/observations. I'd like to know how the Bolivian Rosewood compares to Braz or Indian RW.
    Thanks!
    Just want to head back to the OP...

    - I have a 60th R9, and a 40th R9...had R4's, 7's etc etc
    - I've played a few bursts, a few Gold Tops. I own, and have owned a bunch of 50's Gibson's (Specials mainly)
    - I have a view on where these 60th's are at vs an original.

    In terms of neck shape and the binding...they got it pretty close. Smaller, less shoulder than recent versions. My '99 R9 has a larger neck and that has been the norm for most R9's I've played. I was reminded recently on a '58 burst how the necks were not as large as Gibson had been reproducing recently. I can say the same for my current '57 Special....it's almost a soft V with less shoulder than some monstrous R7 necks. So, in short, they got the neck right.

    The Custombuckers are good. Maybe not great but certainly very good. The best Gibson's produced yet in terms of a PAF tribute pickup in my view.

    The top on mine is excellent, and I've seen many similar. Wide choices on streaks, plain tops, highly figured seem to be available. The colours are good. The rear "red" is maybe slightly lighter than I'd like....but it's minor.

    I have the rosewood board version and it's vintage realistic.

    The fit and finish is FANTASTIC. I mean it. The frets are perfect.

    The Lifton RI case is great, and if they'd produce the proper "waist" on these it would right up there with the 50's versions looks wise. But still, the Costa Rica cases are good.

    The most amazing thing with mine is, it is only 1 digit away from my 1999 R9. I didn't even know until I had them side by side for a shoot! So cool!!! Now I need a 2009 R9 with one serial either way and I'm set!



    Together



    Headstock, one serial apart!

    Last edited by latestarter; 07-02-19 at 09:30 PM.
    Otherwise known as Grant.

  14. #14

    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    I owned a 60th anni and it had terrible fret board work. nut cut too deep the high e was resting on the first 3 frets,frets had marks all over them. returned it and sent a historic an RDS package with historic makeovers. it is 100% a better instrument. I had the guitar sent overnight from a good dealer they sent me another after letting them know of the issues, the following guitar didnt feel good enough to justify the price.

  15. #15
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    About the necks on Historics vs real Bursts and getting the necks right. I believe the originals differed a lot so is it possible to say that this is right? Iíve had some Custom Shop Les Pauls and some USA Les Pauls. Iíve never had any big issues with them. Theyíve all been great guitars.

  16. #16

    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Thanks for the detailed assessment. Can you speak about the tone of the 60th anniversary vs. the vintage bursts and goldtops you have experience with? For me, that is what it all comes down to. You mentioned the Custombuckers being good, but pickups can easily be changed out if you think you can get more from the guitar.

    Quote Originally Posted by latestarter View Post
    Just want to head back to the OP...

    - I have a 60th R9, and a 40th R9...had R4's, 7's etc etc
    - I've played a few bursts, a few Gold Tops. I own, and have owned a bunch of 50's Gibson's (Specials mainly)
    - I have a view on where these 60th's are at vs an original.

    In terms of neck shape and the binding...they got it pretty close. Smaller, less shoulder than recent versions. My '99 R9 has a larger neck and that has been the norm for most R9's I've played. I was reminded recently on a '58 burst how the necks were not as large as Gibson had been reproducing recently. I can say the same for my current '57 Special....it's almost a soft V with less shoulder than some monstrous R7 necks. So, in short, they got the neck right.

    The Custombuckers are good. Maybe not great but certainly very good. The best Gibson's produced yet in terms of a PAF tribute pickup in my view.

    The top on mine is excellent, and I've seen many similar. Wide choices on streaks, plain tops, highly figured seem to be available. The colours are good. The rear "red" is maybe slightly lighter than I'd like....but it's minor.

    I have the rosewood board version and it's vintage realistic.

    The fit and finish is FANTASTIC. I mean it. The frets are perfect.

    The Lifton RI case is great, and if they'd produce the proper "waist" on these it would right up there with the 50's versions looks wise. But still, the Costa Rica cases are good.

    The most amazing thing with mine is, it is only 1 digit away from my 1999 R9. I didn't even know until I had them side by side for a shoot! So cool!!! Now I need a 2009 R9 with one serial either way and I'm set!

  17. #17
    Administrator MikeSlub's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Hi Don,

    The 60th Anniversary R9s are fine guitars. I've purchased two of them and love them both. Always hard to compare a reissue to a Burst - my Bursts have that "thing", that nuance in tone, clarity and feel that is an "X-factor". That said, I really like the new R9s and think you will be pleased with them - they feel good, look good, are fun to play, and sound awesome! Best of luck on your decision.

    60th Anniversary R9s:




    The Bursts:

    Mike Slubowski

    * "Gibson guitars are like potato chips - you can't have just one!"

    * "So many Gibsons to love, so little time..."

  18. #18
    Les Paul Forum Member latestarter's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by GotTheSilver View Post
    Thanks for the detailed assessment. Can you speak about the tone of the 60th anniversary vs. the vintage bursts and goldtops you have experience with? For me, that is what it all comes down to. You mentioned the Custombuckers being good, but pickups can easily be changed out if you think you can get more from the guitar.
    I do think the guitar will be improved with either some real PAfs or quality RI's. Acoustically, the guitar rings out loud, has that hollow knocky honk that indicates, at least in my experience, that there will some good sounds to be had. I guess I'll need to put in some different PU's to provide a more fulsome answer here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mats A View Post
    About the necks on Historics vs real Bursts and getting the necks right. I believe the originals differed a lot so is it possible to say that this is right? Iíve had some Custom Shop Les Pauls and some USA Les Pauls. Iíve never had any big issues with them. Theyíve all been great guitars.
    That is true, but generally speaking the necks on RI's since forever ago have been on the larger side versus originals. A lot has had to do with the shoulder shape. Often, the RI shoulders are too D shaped. That would seem to have been improved upon. The binding is nice and thin too which helps the overall feel and is more vintage spec'd. The latest 59 style frets are excellent...a little lower than previous RI's but they feel great to play.

    The neck shape debate is a bit like top carves. Plenty of bursts out there with subtle carves.
    Otherwise known as Grant.

  19. #19
    Les Paul Forum Member pqs's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by latestarter View Post
    Just want to head back to the OP...

    - I have a 60th R9, and a 40th R9...had R4's, 7's etc etc
    - I've played a few bursts, a few Gold Tops. I own, and have owned a bunch of 50's Gibson's (Specials mainly)
    - I have a view on where these 60th's are at vs an original.

    In terms of neck shape and the binding...they got it pretty close. Smaller, less shoulder than recent versions. My '99 R9 has a larger neck and that has been the norm for most R9's I've played. I was reminded recently on a '58 burst how the necks were not as large as Gibson had been reproducing recently. I can say the same for my current '57 Special....it's almost a soft V with less shoulder than some monstrous R7 necks. So, in short, they got the neck right.

    The Custombuckers are good. Maybe not great but certainly very good. The best Gibson's produced yet in terms of a PAF tribute pickup in my view.

    The top on mine is excellent, and I've seen many similar. Wide choices on streaks, plain tops, highly figured seem to be available. The colours are good. The rear "red" is maybe slightly lighter than I'd like....but it's minor.

    I have the rosewood board version and it's vintage realistic.

    The fit and finish is FANTASTIC. I mean it. The frets are perfect.

    The Lifton RI case is great, and if they'd produce the proper "waist" on these it would right up there with the 50's versions looks wise. But still, the Costa Rica cases are good.

    The most amazing thing with mine is, it is only 1 digit away from my 1999 R9. I didn't even know until I had them side by side for a shoot! So cool!!! Now I need a 2009 R9 with one serial either way and I'm set!



    Together



    Headstock, one serial apart!


    Thank you you so much for sharing your experience. Thatís not the first time I heard the exact same comment about the neck of the original bursts. When I first played a 2019 60th Anniversary, that was my same reaction as well. It didnít feel as chunky as R9ís of previous years. I conjecture that Gibson has listened to the comments about the neck on RIís.

    I ended up getting that first 60th Anniversary R9 because it was the best Les Paul Iíve ever played. Felt very familiar like Iíve owned it for a few years already.

  20. #20
    Les Paul Forum Member TM1's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Thanks Everyone! Much appreciated. I'll most likely get one and send it to Kim @ HM for a refin and maybe a Braz FB, depends on how it sounds. I'd probably get some more real PAF's or at the very least either ThroBak's or Wizz.

  21. #21
    Les Paul Forum Member latestarter's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    TM, maybe buy one and give it a few months?
    Otherwise known as Grant.

  22. #22
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    I've never understood these types of threads. How is the 60th comparable to an original or HM anymore than any other recent historic. Wouldn't how do the 2017/2018/2019 brazilian board Les Pauls compare to HMs and originals be more apropos.

    Do folks realize that 60th is fundamentally the same R Les Paul Gibson has been making since 2017. The only tonal "improvements" for the 60th are "unspotted" CBs, and luxe bees and vintage taper pots. The improved pots and caps can be added to any historic and the only wax potting I've seen on my CBs was between pickup and cover. Calling them improvements for 2019 is fine with me, but they don't compensate for the use of Pau Ferro in some 2019s which, sonic qualities aside, is not a true Rosewood. Calling it Bolivian Rosewood is almost as bad as calling synthetic leather made in Mexico fine Mayan Leather.


    Typical post on these threads, I bought a 201Y R9 and it killed my 201X R9, therefore all 201Y R9s must be superior to all 201X. It's suggested logic like this that actually makes me fear for our democracy. Try a bunch of Les Pauls, the one you like the best is the one. These are guitars made out of wood not iPhones.

  23. #23
    Les Paul Forum Member pqs's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post
    I've never understood these types of threads. How is the 60th comparable to an original or HM anymore than any other recent historic. Wouldn't how do the 2017/2018/2019 brazilian board Les Pauls compare to HMs and originals be more apropos.

    Do folks realize that 60th is fundamentally the same R Les Paul Gibson has been making since 2017. The only tonal "improvements" for the 60th are "unspotted" CBs, and luxe bees and vintage taper pots. The improved pots and caps can be added to any historic and the only wax potting I've seen on my CBs was between pickup and cover. Calling them improvements for 2019 is fine with me, but they don't compensate for the use of Pau Ferro in some 2019s which, sonic qualities aside, is not a true Rosewood. Calling it Bolivian Rosewood is almost as bad as calling synthetic leather made in Mexico fine Mayan Leather.


    Typical post on these threads, I bought a 201Y R9 and it killed my 201X R9, therefore all 201Y R9s must be superior to all 201X. It's suggested logic like this that actually makes me fear for our democracy. Try a bunch of Les Pauls, the one you like the best is the one. These are guitars made out of wood not iPhones.
    Well, the name of the type of Pau Ferro happens to be called Bolivian Rosewood. Gibson didnít come up with that name. Regardless of your opinion on its effect on sound and feel, itís not justifiable to list it as a downgrade, because there are plenty 60th Anniversary R9ís with Indian Rosewood.

    There is also the evolution of the neck carve. They seem to have slimmed down over the years as well as losing some of its shoulders. I also suspect the nylon of the nut is different, but Iím not 100% sure.

    Was it in 2017 that they started using hide glue for the top? My understanding is that they used titebond, then at certain point the changed to hide glue, but I canít remember the exact year. Interestingly, Iíve heard that on the original bursts hide glue wasnít even used for gluing the maple top to the mahogany body, but phenol formaldehyde resin.

    Totally agree on going out and trying them in person.

  24. #24
    Les Paul Forum Member guitplayer's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    I don`t know how the wildwood specs for a 60th anniv. would fall into
    comparison. But those cheap pots in there have to go. Vintage taper or not.

    Wildwood specs.
    Brand Gibson Custom Shop
    Model 60th Anniversary 1959 Les Paul Standard
    Finish Color Kindred Burst
    Weight 8.93 lbs.
    Top Wood Hand-Selected Maple
    Body Wood Mahogany with No Weight Relief
    Neck Wood Mahogany
    Neck Shape Authentic '59 Medium C-Shape
    Neck Dimensions .880 1st - .990 12th
    Fingerboard Hand-Selected Indian Rosewood, Hide Glue Fit
    Fingerboard Radius 12"
    Inlays Celluloid Trapezoids
    Scale Length 24.75"
    Width at Nut 1.695"
    Frets 22
    Pickups Wildwood Spec Custombuckers
    Controls CTS 500K Audio Taper Potentiometers, Paper-in-Oil Capacitors
    Hardware Nickel
    Bridge No-Wire ABR-1
    Plastics Aged Vintage-Style
    Tailpiece Lightweight Aluminum Stop Bar
    Tuners Kluson Single Line, Single Ring
    Case Brown/Pink Lifton Reissue 5-Latch
    COA Yes
    Last edited by guitplayer; 07-07-19 at 10:42 AM.
    " Never Mind Your Face, just show us your card"

  25. #25
    Les Paul Forum Member latestarter's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post

    Typical post on these threads, I bought a 201Y R9 and it killed my 201X R9, therefore all 201Y R9s must be superior to all 201X. It's suggested logic like this that actually makes me fear for our democracy. Try a bunch of Les Pauls, the one you like the best is the one. These are guitars made out of wood not iPhones.
    I didít get that from this thread at all...but I do agree with you about choosing the best one. In my case the 60th simply allows me to run different setup from the 40th. It certainly doesnít kill it!
    Otherwise known as Grant.

  26. #26
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by pqs View Post
    Well, the name of the type of Pau Ferro happens to be called Bolivian Rosewood. Gibson didnít come up with that name. Regardless of your opinion on its effect on sound and feel, itís not justifiable to list it as a downgrade, because there are plenty 60th Anniversary R9ís with Indian Rosewood.

    There is also the evolution of the neck carve. They seem to have slimmed down over the years as well as losing some of its shoulders. I also suspect the nylon of the nut is different, but Iím not 100% sure.

    Was it in 2017 that they started using hide glue for the top? My understanding is that they used titebond, then at certain point the changed to hide glue, but I canít remember the exact year. Interestingly, Iíve heard that on the original bursts hide glue wasnít even used for gluing the maple top to the mahogany body, but phenol formaldehyde resin.

    Totally agree on going out and trying them in person.
    I wasn't trying to imply it was a downgrade in the tonal sense. In fact I made a point of saying "sonic qualities aside". I do think that calling Pau Ferro Bolivian Rosewood is the essence of false advertising. Someone unaware could likely infer that Bolivian Rosewood being Rosewood from Bolivia is closer to Brazilian Rosewood than Indian Rosewood when in fact Bolivian Rosewood unlike Indian Rosewood is not a true Rosewood Doesn't it make it better or worse in my book. But it might for those who have a fixation on specs hence my point.

    I believe the hide glued top started with the True Historic spec guitars and was carried over for 2017 and on.

    The neck carves on my 2018 Brazilians are a noticeably smaller than the neck on my 2015 True Historic. The 60ths I tried had that similar neck carve to my 2018 which i think is a good thing. Anything smaller afaic would be really more of a 1960 spec.

  27. #27
    Les Paul Forum Member pqs's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post
    I wasn't trying to imply it was a downgrade in the tonal sense. In fact I made a point of saying "sonic qualities aside". I do think that calling Pau Ferro Bolivian Rosewood is the essence of false advertising. Someone unaware could likely infer that Bolivian Rosewood being Rosewood from Bolivia is closer to Brazilian Rosewood than Indian Rosewood when in fact Bolivian Rosewood unlike Indian Rosewood is not a true Rosewood Doesn't it make it better or worse in my book. But it might for those who have a fixation on specs hence my point.

    I believe the hide glued top started with the True Historic spec guitars and was carried over for 2017 and on.

    The neck carves on my 2018 Brazilians are a noticeably smaller than the neck on my 2015 True Historic. The 60ths I tried had that similar neck carve to my 2018 which i think is a good thing. Anything smaller afaic would be really more of a 1960 spec.
    Bolivian Rosewood is the actual name of a type of Pau Ferro. There is also a different type called Brazilian Ironwood. Interestingly Pau Ferro is Portuguese for iron wood. How is it false advertisement. Bolivian Rosewood wasnít a name coined by Gibson. It got its name due to the visual similarities with Indian Rosewood.

  28. #28
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by pqs View Post
    Bolivian Rosewood is the actual name of a type of Pau Ferro. There is also a different type called Brazilian Ironwood. Interestingly Pau Ferro is Portuguese for iron wood. How is it false advertisement. Bolivian Rosewood wasnít a name coined by Gibson. It got its name due to the visual similarities with Indian Rosewood.
    Is it actually? Is that the actual scientific name or it's marketing name derived by those with a commercial interest in the wood? look up the definition on false advertising if this concept eludes you. Someone buying Bolivian Rosewood may think they are actually getting a true Rosewood when they are not. So that would be the text book definition of false advertising.

    Years ago I almost bought a Custom Shop Bolivian Rosewood Martin. I thought Bolivian Rosewood might be the closest Rosewood to Brazilian and I'm sure that's exactly what those commercially interested in rebranding this Pau Ferro intended. Suffice it to say when I found out Bolivian Rosewood wasn't even a true Rosewood I bought the Martin with Madagascar Rosewood.

    Whether Pau Ferro is a better or worse tone wood is not something I commented on and frankly irrelevant to my point. I don't know why anyone would even argue with what is pretty much a prima facie case. The makers of Richlite could call it North American cultured Ebony but it ain't ebony and neither is Pau ferro Rosewood.

  29. #29

    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post
    Calling it Bolivian Rosewood is almost as bad as calling synthetic leather made in Mexico fine Mayan Leather.
    Oh, man! Do you mean that my Mayan Leather g-string banana hammock undies from Tijuana are not all I thought they were???? Maybe that is why get the chafing!

  30. #30
    Les Paul Forum Member pqs's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post
    Is it actually? Is that the actual scientific name or it's marketing name derived by those with a commercial interest in the wood? look up the definition on false advertising if this concept eludes you. Someone buying Bolivian Rosewood may think they are actually getting a true Rosewood when they are not. So that would be the text book definition of false advertising.

    Years ago I almost bought a Custom Shop Bolivian Rosewood Martin. I thought Bolivian Rosewood might be the closest Rosewood to Brazilian and I'm sure that's exactly what those commercially interested in rebranding this Pau Ferro intended. Suffice it to say when I found out Bolivian Rosewood wasn't even a true Rosewood I bought the Martin with Madagascar Rosewood.

    Whether Pau Ferro is a better or worse tone wood is not something I commented on and frankly irrelevant to my point. I don't know why anyone would even argue with what is pretty much a prima facie case. The makers of Richlite could call it North American cultured Ebony but it ain't ebony and neither is Pau ferro Rosewood.

    The botanical names are seldom used. Those are usually in Latin and hard to pronounce. I donít know how else to explain this, but Pau Ferro is a set and Bolivian Rosewood is one of its elements. All Bolivian Rosewood is Pau Ferro, but not all Pau Ferro are Bolivian Rosewood. Just like all sequoias are Redwoods, but not all redwoods are sequoia.

  31. #31
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by pqs View Post
    The botanical names are seldom used. Those are usually in Latin and hard to pronounce. I don’t know how else to explain this, but Pau Ferro is a set and Bolivian Rosewood is one of its elements. All Bolivian Rosewood is Pau Ferro, but not all Pau Ferro are Bolivian Rosewood. Just like all sequoias are Redwoods, but not all redwoods are sequoia.
    I understand perfectly what you are saying about Bolivian Rosewood being a “type” of Pau Ferro just as red spruce is a type of spruce. However, NO type of Pau Ferro is a true Rosewood just as no type of Spruce is Maple. Therefore, how can you disagree that calling it such is not misleading. I myself was almost misled.

    Again, I am not disparaging the tonal qualities of Pau Ferro in any of its types as fretboard material. It’s just not a true rosewood and therefore shouldn’t be marketed as such.

  32. #32
    Les Paul Forum Member guitplayer's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    HM and a 60th. I`ve spent more time with the R8 and got it
    just right. The 60th has alot of potential. Far as the board...I like the feel of the 60th`s board.
    Very vintage. But I would guess its all depends on the individual guitar.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  33. #33
    Les Paul Forum Member pqs's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by JPP-1 View Post
    I understand perfectly what you are saying about Bolivian Rosewood being a ďtypeĒ of Pau Ferro just as red spruce is a type of spruce. However, NO type of Pau Ferro is a true Rosewood just as no type of Spruce is Maple. Therefore, how can you disagree that calling it such is not misleading. I myself was almost misled.

    Again, I am not disparaging the tonal qualities of Pau Ferro in any of its types as fretboard material. Itís just not a true rosewood and therefore shouldnít be marketed as such.
    Sorry I didn't think you understood my point. I agree that Bolivian Rosewood can be misleading, but I think these names are coined before biologists properly classifies these species. For instance, JacarnadŠ Paulista (translates to S„o Paulo JacaranŠ) is not JacarandŠ, which is the coveted Brazilian Rosewood. The latter comes from the state of Bahia and is longways north of S„o Paulo. Another example, is African Mahogany, which I've seen people argue is similar but not true Mahogany. I think it is more to do with the naming conventions of the lumber industry, than it is the guitar industry itself.

    With that said, I empathize for your experience with the Martin spec sheets. I love Martin guitars, but their spec pages can be tough to decipher. For instances, they list X-bracing on a load of guitars that have the hybrid X-bracing, one of which is the John Mayer signature model. I only figured that out, because I realized that every Martin with simple dove-tail neck joint had the hybrid bracing, but I digress.

  34. #34
    Les Paul Forum Member pqs's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by guitplayer View Post
    HM and a 60th. I`ve spent more time with the R8 and got it
    just right. The 60th has alot of potential. Far as the board...I like the feel of the 60th`s board.
    Very vintage. But I would guess its all depends on the individual guitar.
    Just wow. I'm assuming the R8 HM is the one on the left and the 60th is a kindred burst on the right? They look amazing. That board on the 60th really look amazing. Very dark and smooth looking. My 60th R9's board is much lighter in color, so yeah it depends a lot on individual guitars. Another thing to keep in mind, or you might want to investigate, is that if the 60th R9 is truly a kindred burst, all of the kindred bursts I've seen so far had Bolivian Rosewood (Pau Ferro) boards. In terms of feel I prefer the Bolivian boards, because they tend to be smoother than actual Indian Rosewood. I also like that whatever CITES friendly boards Gibson is using on these R9s, they look much darker than the Pau Ferro you usually see on Epiphone and MIM Fender.

  35. #35
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by pqs View Post
    Sorry I didn't think you understood my point. I agree that Bolivian Rosewood can be misleading, but I think these names are coined before biologists properly classifies these species. For instance, JacarnadŠ Paulista (translates to S„o Paulo JacaranŠ) is not JacarandŠ, which is the coveted Brazilian Rosewood. The latter comes from the state of Bahia and is longways north of S„o Paulo. Another example, is African Mahogany, which I've seen people argue is similar but not true Mahogany. I think it is more to do with the naming conventions of the lumber industry, than it is the guitar industry itself.

    With that said, I empathize for your experience with the Martin spec sheets. I love Martin guitars, but their spec pages can be tough to decipher. For instances, they list X-bracing on a load of guitars that have the hybrid X-bracing, one of which is the John Mayer signature model. I only figured that out, because I realized that every Martin with simple dove-tail neck joint had the hybrid bracing, but I digress.
    Martin now to me seems more confusing than ever. Before you had a D28 with straight bracing, an HD28 with scalloped bracing and an HD28V with forward shifted scalloped bracing. Now it seems more muddled. I have a John Mayer OM -great guitar whatever bracing is used. At the time it was the only smaller body full length option with 1 11/16 nut. Don't get me wrong, JM is one of the great ones afaic, but I'm usually not a signature guitar guy.

  36. #36

    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Again; "Slub",
    Leaves me with a F'N'; "Hard-On"...
    -mud

  37. #37
    Les Paul Forum Member TM1's Avatar
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    Re: 60th Anni.`59 LP vs. Original or Historic Makeover

    Thanks everyone for your interesting(to say the least) commentary. If I send it to HM I would have a Brazilian Board installed. I will also replace the pickups and pots. I do know my 2002 R-0 is a really great guitar and I have played a lot of 50ís Les Pauls. The R-0 has a little something extra that most reissues donít have. So I feel pretty lucky to have this one!

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