Fretting out, advice needed please.

atosoup · Jun 20, 2019

Hi all, (im new here) stumbled across this forum a couple of days ago when googling my problem and have spent the last couple of days looking through posts. Looks like a great friendly place with some great people so decided to ask for help here.

I own 4 gibsons, one of them ( my goto) is a 1995 sunburst les Paul standard, I gigged for years in my 20s then it sat for a few years untouched while family got in the way, last year I manged to get my rig setup at home and can now play again.

3 months ago I took the guitar to John diggins guitars who replaced the bridge as the original had tarnished badly and did a full service and setup, when getting it back it played and felt superb better than ever.

The problem I'm asking for help with is over the last couple of weeks I've noticed it's fretting out around and above the 15th on big bends, I'm wondering is this settlement or down to the summer weather? Is there an easy adjustment I can make to relieve this without ruining the action or should I take it back to the guys that did the service? Thanks in advance for any advice.

Don · Jun 20, 2019

It sounds like the guitar needs a seasonal truss rod adjustment. I'd loosen the trussrod 1/8 to 1/4 turn and see what that gets you.

atosoup · Jun 20, 2019

Don said:
It sounds like the guitar needs a seasonal truss rod adjustment. I'd loosen the trussrod 1/8 to 1/4 turn and see what that gets you.

Will the bridge height also need adjusting after this and will it affect the intonation?

I'm confident enough to adjust the truss but with having just spent good money getting it serviced by a pro and having feel and play so nice aside from that I'm a little worried about making a mess of it.

Don · Jun 20, 2019

The same thing happened to me years ago and the luthier suggested that I back off the truss rod slightly. It worked great with no other adjustments. I do my own setups now, and though I occasionally need to tweak truss rods, I seldom touch the intonation or action unless I change something else.

It's easy enough to try and see how it turns out or you could contact the guy who did the work and see if he says something similar.

atosoup · Jun 20, 2019

Thanks so much for the advice,

I'm fitting some new pickups in her this weekend, so I'll try drop the truss rod off a nack then and see what happens, I'll be sure to let you know how I get on, thanks again.

atosoup · Jun 20, 2019

atosoup said:
Thanks so much for the advice,

I'm fitting some new pickups in her this weekend, so I'll try drop the truss rod off a nack then and see what happens, I'll be sure to let you know how I get on, thanks again.

I tried to add a couple of photos but the forum doesn't seem to want me to, is there a nack to it?

marshall1987 · Jun 20, 2019

Leaving your guitar out in an open room will cause the neck to continually equilibrate with the humidity inside. If you keep your guitar stored in it's case the wood remains a little more stable. Nonetheless, the wood is constantly reacting to changing humidity conditions and reaching an equilibrium with the atmosphere.

My main players are normally kept on guitar stands in my music room. Accordingly, I find they require truss rod adjustments several times a year. I live in a mid-Atlantic state, and in the summer with higher humidity, the wood swells from higher water vapor in the atmosphere. So I need to back off the truss rod adjustment.

The opposite is true in the winter months; i.e., the wood looses moisture and tends to "shrink" or contract slightly. Therefore I need to tighten the truss rod.

This is completely normal and expected. You should learn to correct way to sight a guitar's neck and make proper truss rod adjustments. It's really pretty simple once you know what to look for.

atosoup · Jun 20, 2019

marshall1987 said:
Leaving your guitar out in an open room will cause the neck to continually equilibrate with the humidity inside. If you keep your guitar stored in it's case the wood remains a little more stable. Nonetheless, the wood is constantly reacting to changing humidity conditions and reaching an equilibrium with the atmosphere.

My main players are normally kept on guitar stands in my music room. Accordingly, I find they require truss rod adjustments several times a year. I live in a mid-Atlantic state, and in the summer with higher humidity, the wood swells from higher water vapor in the atmosphere. So I need to back off the truss rod adjustment.

The opposite is true in the winter months; i.e., the wood looses moisture and tends to "shrink" or contract slightly. Therefore I need to tighten the truss rod.

This is completely normal and expected. You should learn to correct way to sight a guitar's neck and make proper truss rod adjustments. It's really pretty simple once you know what to look for.

Thanks so much for this, I'll dig around YouTube for some research and give the truss a little relief when change the pickups on Saturday... Thanks again

rick c · Jun 21, 2019

atosoup: already some great advice here. For what it is worth, this is what I do on all my guitars, including 3 Gibsons,
regarding set-up. At string change time, (for me about two or three times a year per guitar as I don't gig and swap them in and out of use) I clean the guitar fretboard and check for flatness using a steel rule on top of the frets. I should note that my frets are great but if you have high/low frets then using a steel rule on top of the frets may not work for you. I use a credit card as a fret rocker to check things once in a while.

I like almost flat necks so I simply adjust the truss rod without strings so that the neck is completely flat and then add the strings, set the action, tune up and recheck. I should stress I use light strings 0.008"-0.038 on my LP and 0.010" to 0.046" on my ES guitars. With my Gibsons, this is usually all I need to do to get a really light relief; I don't measure it, I'll left finger the first fret and use a thumb on the 16th fret and finger on the 8th with my right hand to make sure there is some relief but then play and make sure nothing is buzzing. I set action at 3/64" top E at the 12th fret and 5/64" bottom E at the same fret.

As commented, temperature and humidity can sometimes screw things up a little so do the two fingers and a thumb check and see if the relief has changed. The 15th fret is about where the impact of the truss rod ends as the neck gets fatter where it joins the body but if the relief is too big the strings can choke right up to the 16th/17th

atosoup · Jun 21, 2019

rick c said:
atosoup: already some great advice here. For what it is worth, this is what I do on all my guitars, including 3 Gibsons,
regarding set-up. At string change time, (for me about two or three times a year per guitar as I don't gig and swap them in and out of use) I clean the guitar fretboard and check for flatness using a steel rule on top of the frets. I should note that my frets are great but if you have high/low frets then using a steel rule on top of the frets may not work for you. I use a credit card as a fret rocker to check things once in a while.

I like almost flat necks so I simply adjust the truss rod without strings so that the neck is completely flat and then add the strings, set the action, tune up and recheck. I should stress I use light strings 0.008"-0.038 on my LP and 0.010" to 0.046" on my ES guitars. With my Gibsons, this is usually all I need to do to get a really light relief; I don't measure it, I'll left finger the first fret and use a thumb on the 16th fret and finger on the 8th with my right hand to make sure there is some relief but then play and make sure nothing is buzzing. I set action at 3/64" top E at the 12th fret and 5/64" bottom E at the same fret.

As commented, temperature and humidity can sometimes screw things up a little so do the two fingers and a thumb check and see if the relief has changed. The 15th fret is about where the impact of the truss rod ends as the neck gets fatter where it joins the body but if the relief is too big the strings can choke right up to the 16th/17th

This is great, top tips I'll be trying out tomorrow, I'm planning on filming my pickup install and my attempt to fix this issue using the advice I've been given here, I'll stick it on YouTube and post the results here..looks like I was right about this place what a cracking forum with some real cool people.. Thanks again

atosoup · Jun 21, 2019

rick c said:
atosoup: already some great advice here. For what it is worth, this is what I do on all my guitars, including 3 Gibsons,
regarding set-up. At string change time, (for me about two or three times a year per guitar as I don't gig and swap them in and out of use) I clean the guitar fretboard and check for flatness using a steel rule on top of the frets. I should note that my frets are great but if you have high/low frets then using a steel rule on top of the frets may not work for you. I use a credit card as a fret rocker to check things once in a while.

I like almost flat necks so I simply adjust the truss rod without strings so that the neck is completely flat and then add the strings, set the action, tune up and recheck. I should stress I use light strings 0.008"-0.038 on my LP and 0.010" to 0.046" on my ES guitars. With my Gibsons, this is usually all I need to do to get a really light relief; I don't measure it, I'll left finger the first fret and use a thumb on the 16th fret and finger on the 8th with my right hand to make sure there is some relief but then play and make sure nothing is buzzing. I set action at 3/64" top E at the 12th fret and 5/64" bottom E at the same fret.

As commented, temperature and humidity can sometimes screw things up a little so do the two fingers and a thumb check and see if the relief has changed. The 15th fret is about where the impact of the truss rod ends as the neck gets fatter where it joins the body but if the relief is too big the strings can choke right up to the 16th/17th

when using the finger and thumb technique to check for relief, how much relief should I be seeing here? What is it im looking for in string height from the fret?

rick c · Jun 21, 2019

When finger and thumbing, I'm simply confirming that there is some relief; that the strings are not touching the 7/8/9 frets. With my right thumb pressing on the 16th fret, I reach over and touch the strings on the 8th fret to confirm that there is some movement. Many people use a capo on the first fret, finger the 16th with the right hand and slide a feeler gauge under the 8th/9th fret, typically looking for about 0.008" between the strings and the top of the fret. The 1st fret capo/fingering is to rule out any nut slot effects on the process.

I should have commented that using your eyes also works; hold the guitar so that you are looking from the bridge up to the nut, focusing on one side of the neck or the other and you can very clearly see if the neck is flat or relieved. This really should be the first check before you go fiddling with things.

Good luck with your pup change and set-up.

atosoup · Jun 21, 2019

rick c said:
When finger and thumbing, I'm simply confirming that there is some relief; that the strings are not touching the 7/8/9 frets. With my right thumb pressing on the 16th fret, I reach over and touch the strings on the 8th fret to confirm that there is some movement. Many people use a capo on the first fret, finger the 16th with the right hand and slide a feeler gauge under the 8th/9th fret, typically looking for about 0.008" between the strings and the top of the fret. The 1st fret capo/fingering is to rule out any nut slot effects on the process.

I should have commented that using your eyes also works; hold the guitar so that you are looking from the bridge up to the nut, focusing on one side of the neck or the other and you can very clearly see if the neck is flat or relieved. This really should be the first check before you go fiddling with things.

Good luck with your pup change and set-up.

Thanks so much for this, looking forward to getting at it tomorrow, took me a while to find some leaded solder and not the lead free stuff as this is what I'm told I need to use.. Will let you know how it goes.17

rick c · Jun 21, 2019

Nothing wrong with lead free solder. I guess if you are going to go Gibson and "authentic" maybe leaded solder is the way to go.

The most important thing is preparation; clean off the old gunk, roughen things up a bit with a small piece of emery paper/wire brush/sandpaper and be patient. I always pre-solder my wire ends.

Good luck; post pics!

atosoup · Jun 23, 2019

A huge massive thanks to all of you that offered help and advice,

It took day to get finished I the end wit my 2 year old causing me no end of grief when I had the tools out!

I got a feeler gauge n the end and spent forever tryin to measure the relief and trying minute truss rod adjustments, after getting frustrated with nothing really happening I did quarter turns re tuned and played it, took a while but patience and I found the tip to look ( sight ) down the neck great I could see exactly what the neck was doing.

I had to tweak the intonation a little but it now feels and plays incredible!!

As for the Pups they was a breeze to install, sadly I haven't yet had the opportunity to play them through my marshall above a volume of 0.5 due to my 2 yr old, But they sound amazing through my DAW and guitar rig plugin.

I have left the scrath plate off filled the worm holes with a crayon and polished it up..

Im so so happy with the results.
Thanks again for your help with this.
( I have also added a couple of pics of my amp setup as I think it will give you a giggle! I built the roof of my extension 1 foot taller to accommodate the 4x12 cab)

http://www.atinof.com/guitar/1.jpg
http://www.atinof.com/guitar/2.jpg
http://www.atinof.com/guitar/3.jpg
http://www.atinof.com/guitar/4.jpg
http://www.atinof.com/guitar/5.jpg

atosoup · Jun 23, 2019

Well, it's done!

Took me 2 days in the end with a toddler snapping at my heels. I purchased a feeler gauge from amazon then spent about 2 hours messing about with minute truss rod adjustments and this gauge, after getting nowhere I just used my eyes down the neck did little turns on the truss re tuned and played it, I could feel from there what was happening and after an hour i got it bang on!

I had to sort the intonation out as this was now a little off but wow what a difference.

The pups went it real easy and sound incredible, I polished all the hardware and the guitar with a gibson vintage restoration kit I had been brought, left the scratch plate off and filled the wormholes with a wax crayon..
I'm over the moon with the results.

Thanks again to you who offered advice it's much appreciated

I have added a couple of pics here and included my amp setup as I think it will give you a giggle.. I had "space" issues when building my man cave so my pal who did the architect drawings came up with a cunning plan to squeeze my 4x12 in.
www.atinof.com/guitar/1.jpg
www.atinof.com/guitar/2.jpg
www.atinof.com/guitar/3.jpg
www.atinof.com/guitar/4.jpg
www.atinof.com/guitar/5.jpg

atosoup · Jun 23, 2019

I have 3 times now written a huge post about how I got on and included links to photos I have uploaded but my posts just keep disappearing? Is it because I added links to my photos

atosoup · Jun 23, 2019

Ahhh nuts, now they have all popped up and I can't figure out how to delete posts.. Sorry about this

atosoup · Jun 24, 2019

https://youtu.be/LWnsxAChNCE

Thought I'd also share this vid of the music room I built when my wife got pregnant, this is where me and my gibsons live most of the time and as I'm kinda half lazy and half into tech I hooked my Marshall amp upto Alexa. (and mostly because I couldn't reach it without standing on a chair!)

Wilko · Jun 25, 2019

rick c said:
I should have commented that using your eyes also works; hold the guitar so that you are looking from the bridge up to the nut, focusing on one side of the neck or the other and you can very clearly see if the neck is flat or relieved. This really should be the first check before you go fiddling with things.

I love that you wrote this! I'e actually read a few sources that say you can't see anything that way, and if you see a tech do that it means they don't know what they're doing!

I can see the string shadows on the frets and know exactly how straight the neck is.

Fretting out, advice needed please.

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