A Cork Sniffing Thread to End Them All...(Maybe)

dowhatthouwilt said:

If the bursts weren't shot with aniline, what did they use? All I've ever heard is aniline.

Some wood stocks have documentation to prove when they were imported, much like legal stocks of Brazilian.

A meteor winder.

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Tinted lacqure, premixed by supplier. The tint used was not a dye and remains stable, [mix], unlike the aniline dye used in the filler, which migrates in lacquer. The red tinted lacquer never migrates into the yellow or binding. The confusion is with Lightfast tint/color and migrating, lightfast dye.

Some red tinted lacqure was very light fugitive and faded rapidly in uv light. Some were more lightfast and keep their color. There was not a consistent color tint from batch to batch. The aniline dye seems to have been consistent in shade but light fugitive and migratory in lacquer. I had a mint bright red cherry 59 Jr that left reddish stains on my white pants and my left palm!! This is 20 yrs from DOM!!
Gibson returned to aniline dyed pore filler for mahogany in 1999.
They haven't returned to a light fugitive cherry red for bursts, which some want.

Big Al said:

Tinted lacqure, premixed by supplier. The tint used was not a dye and remains stable, [mix], unlike the aniline dye used in the filler, which migrates in lacquer. The red tinted lacquer never migrates into the yellow or binding. The confusion is with Lightfast tint/color and migrating, lightfast dye.

Some red tinted lacqure was very light fugitive and faded rapidly in uv light. Some were more lightfast and keep their color. There was not a consistent color tint from batch to batch. The aniline dye seems to have been consistent in shade but light fugitive and migratory in lacquer. I had a mint bright red cherry 59 Jr that left reddish stains on my white pants and my left palm!! This is 20 yrs from DOM!!
Gibson returned to aniline dyed pore filler for mahogany in 1999.
They haven't returned to a light fugitive cherry red for bursts, which some want.

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That's a very good point about the red from the burst not migrating like the dye on the backs, never thought of that.

It seems like the more recent historics are more prone to fading. I saw a post on here (that I cannot find again frustratingly) where a guy took the pickguard and switch ring off of his true historic and the cherry had already faded very noticeably.

I've only had my hand on a few 50's guitars but they seemed to have thinner fretboards than what is coming out now. Maybe to help with the hump at the body joint, I don't know, probably a luthier question there.

Big Al said:

No. Aniline cherry red dye was mixed into the pore filler, not ever in the clear lacquer. If the finisher felt the cherry red back and neck wasn't red enough or uneven after a few clear coats he might give it a coat of cherry red tinted lacquer. The same transparent pigment tinted lacquer used to shade the burst and most similar to candy red used on hot rods and Fenders, over an opaque metallic base coat. Then topped with clear coats. Front or back, always finshed in clear after color coats.

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Sorry, missed out the grain fill bit. You're right, the grain filler (post sealer coat) was tinted with the red aniline dye also. Then, as I understood, following a clear over the grain filler they then shot a red (aniline) tinted clear to boost/deepen the colour, and even it out as you say. Sounds like only sometimes. Dan Erlewine's description is on the money, and why I thought they used a tinted clear.....Dan wrote...

Between 1958 and about 1970, Gibson used a cherry-red paste filler on many models with mahogany necks and bodies. The filler was colored with red, or red-brown, pigment combined with a transparent cherry red dye, and it served as both a stain and filler at once. The pigment colored the filler; the dye not only stained the wood but, being soluble in lacquer, it bled instantly into clear lacquer sprayed over it. This bleeding turned the clear lacquer, to some degree, into a transparent red lacquer toner. So the red filler really accomplished three jobs: pore-filling, staining, and toning.

https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/...ry-on-Mahagony&p=348705&viewfull=1#post348705
The StewMac book is fantastic by the way... I refer to it regularly.

Al, what I really want to know now is, if the clear tinted lacquer (for the tops) wasn't achieved with a diluted aniline dye, the same used to colour the filler paste, what was used?

The case - although the cases look better, they still don't have that cool waist like the old ones.

Good point above about tail piece position too.

Interesting that Gibson have had some things right in the past and now reverted to incorrect pieces. I don't think they'll ever get consistency with this stuff. Their procurement team has one objective - procure items at the lowest cost. Dimensions are up for grabs if the item can be sourced more cheaply. For $6K one would have thought they could broaden the parameters and set a lower tolerance on variation for a higher tolerance on cost.

I don't see how any of this minutiae makes for a better guitar. But hey to each their own.

After a hiatus form Gibson for 5 years I jumped back in with a couple of post 2012 CCs and Historics I had a bunch of more recent historics go through my hands and all of them were very good with several standouts along the way. The two recent Brazilians I've picked up to go along with my battered TH59 are as fine as any guitar I've ever put my hands on.

Formaldehyde, millimeter of tenon, aniline die aren't going to make a qualitative difference. Quality construction that respects history together with responsive tonewoods are the most important factors afaic. I want the mahogany used to be a piece of good resonant wood that rings out, preferably lighter in weight but not feather weight. If the wood meets that criteria I don't care how young or old it is or from what region of the world or side of the hill it was allegedly harvested from. The rest of it is just gilding the lily. But by all means, sniff away.

None of it makes for a better guitar. A more authentic looking one definitely but not better.

I think the majority of tone affecting properties Gibson have already addressed. Getting rid of Titebond, although hide glue all over isn't correct it can't hurt over synthetic glue. Truss rod condom removal and the Custombuckers are a big improvement certainly in lower gain scenarios. They will never get the glassy hard Nitro right as the associated checking will put a lot of people off so we are stuck with the rubbery stuff. This is the only tone affecting physical property left to address IMO.

As for the whole Brazilian/Madagascan/Indian rosewood debate. I've yet to hear a difference there, despite so many forum experts telling me so... Certainly Braz and Madagascan are more oily under the finger but tone? No.

The most important cosmetic change for me is the Catalin switch tip and the vintage correct knobs as they have the right tactile feel and are a bit more slippery smooth in the hand rather than the grabby style of the older reissue plastics. Although again, the new True Historic knobs don't have the correct "dip" in the top of the knob if we are getting into the anal detail.

JPP-1 said:

I don't see how any of this minutiae makes for a better guitar. But hey to each their own.

After a hiatus form Gibson for 5 years I jumped back in with a couple of post 2012 CCs and Historics I had a bunch of more recent historics go through my hands and all of them were very good with several standouts along the way. The two recent Brazilians I've picked up to go along with my battered TH59 are as fine as any guitar I've ever put my hands on.

Formaldehyde, millimeter of tenon, aniline die aren't going to make a qualitative difference. Quality construction that respects history together with responsive tonewoods are the most important factors afaic. I want the mahogany used to be a piece of good resonant wood that rings out, preferably lighter in weight but not feather weight. If the wood meets that criteria I don't care how young or old it is or from what region of the world or side of the hill it was allegedly harvested from. The rest of it is just gilding the lily. But by all means, sniff away.

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The whole reason I would buy a Historic would simply be so I can hold it and think "It's just like the original." It has nothing to do with playing, but satisfies something deep down about having a connection with your idols and history. I don't think most of this stuff really makes a difference in tone, but if I'm buying a Les Paul based entirely on tone and playability I'd save a few thousand and just buy a USA standard or some other knock-off single cut for that matter. (Like my Heritage.)

latestarter said:

Sorry, missed out the grain fill bit. You're right, the grain filler (post sealer coat) was tinted with the red aniline dye also. Then, as I understood, following a clear over the grain filler they then shot a red (aniline) tinted clear to boost/deepen the colour, and even it out as you say. Sounds like only sometimes. Dan Erlewine's description is on the money, and why I thought they used a tinted clear.....Dan wrote...

Between 1958 and about 1970, Gibson used a cherry-red paste filler on many models with mahogany necks and bodies. The filler was colored with red, or red-brown, pigment combined with a transparent cherry red dye, and it served as both a stain and filler at once. The pigment colored the filler; the dye not only stained the wood but, being soluble in lacquer, it bled instantly into clear lacquer sprayed over it. This bleeding turned the clear lacquer, to some degree, into a transparent red lacquer toner. So the red filler really accomplished three jobs: pore-filling, staining, and toning.

https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/...ry-on-Mahagony&p=348705&viewfull=1#post348705
The StewMac book is fantastic by the way... I refer to it regularly.

Al, what I really want to know now is, if the clear tinted lacquer (for the tops) wasn't achieved with a diluted aniline dye, the same used to colour the filler paste, what was used?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure. I'm to old and beat up to remember the exact term but pigment tints and toners made specifically for use in lacquer. My good friend and bassist extraordinare, Ken owned Colorco in NJ, and produced color pigment to be added to paints, leather, fabric and wood dye and plastics. He was a fabulously adept lacquer sprayer and did restoritive finsh work for Harrahs Auto Collection and custom hot rods and explained a lot for me.

Whenever Gibson mentions Aniline Dyes it is in reference to the pore filler and too many apply it to the shaded burst tinted color. The tints and colors used now are amazing, IMO.

I'd just like to toss this out there.......not about sunburst tops, but rather the goldtops.......

I would like to see Gibson return to using the original authentic finish for the '56/'57 goldtop Les Paul reissues. A few years back they stopped using the traditional gold lacquer with the bronze powder, and instead, went to using lacquer containing gold mica chips. IMO the new gold finish with the mica chips isn't even close to the gleaming gold finish on the original '50s goldtop Les Pauls.

If you're reading this Gibson.......Give us back our bronze gold lacquer!