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  1. #1

    86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    I'm lefty. I bought the first lefty Les Paul I ever laid eyes on: a used black 1986 les paul custom. Lefty guitars were much less common back then. I gigged in three different bands with it. It's seen a lot of use. I realized that it sounded kind of muddy some years back and had the covers removed from the stock pickups. Sadly, the bridge pickup subsequently became damaged when the small string got hooked under the edge of the pickup a few too many times and eventually broke through the coil. I replaced it with a dimarzio super distortion dp100, which I hoped would give it a brighter, crunchier sound.

    I later acquired a used 91 Les Paul Standard, which has become my preferred guitar. It sounds a LOT brighter. When I say brighter I mean without even plugging it in. Just press your ear against it and play a few notes and the wood of the 91 Standard is much richer and brighter than the 86 Custom. I don't know what wood is used in either guitar and would appreciate it if someone could help me figure that out. I've seen conflicting posts all over this forum and the internet about which wood Gibson used when for which Les Pauls and would much prefer to take a look inside the guitar to know for sure, rather than relying on common wisdom or hearsay. I'd be willing to bet that my two LPs are constructed differently and that the 86 custom is all mahogany and the 91 standard has maple in it.

    Plug them in and the difference is even more noticeable. The 86 Custom just sounds abysmally dark and dull compared to the 91 Standard (which has Seymour Duncan SH-1s). The neck PUP on the 86 Custom sounds OK with suitable settings (sorta like the the first minute and a half of Fleetwood Mac's Fighting for Madge), but the bridge pickup--the one I use almost exclusively in my playing--is very disappointing. The result is that I never play the 86 Custom.

    So I'm wondering if I should try and modernize the 86 Custom to get a crunchier, more modern sound out of it or if that's a fool's errand. Perhaps I'd be better off staying as vintage as possible with it to try and preserve resale value? I still have the stock Gibson HBR/HBL pickups from 91 Standard and the 86 Custom still has the stock neck pickup, but the 86 Custom has seen a lot of use. The finish is dinged, it needs at least one replacement tuning head, I replaced the original strap buttons with Schaller S-Locks, and I removed the pickguard, which is long gone. It still has the original case -- the big square monstrosity, but one of the buckles is gone. It might not have a lot of resale value, and its value to me is largely sentimental.

    I would mention that I'm really hoping for a bright, crunchy sound good for chugs and tasty prog metal chords, bristling with rich harmonics. I'd be more than happy with a sound like Matt Pike gets for Sleep/High On Fire. Can this guitar achieve a modern sound? I've seen folks on this forum recommending a rewire kit and this video seems to offer a pretty good idea of what I might expect. This adjustment seems significant to me, and I might go further by installing some bright, modern pickup like a Seymour Duncan Nazgul or Pegasus or something. Or maybe a Dimarzio X2N? Is this drastic and ill-advised? Or a good way to draw out more character from the dark wood of the guitar?

  2. #2
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    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    I have a Les Paul Custom that I too thought it sounded like it had a wet blanket thrown over and around it and I replaced the wiring harness with a harness with 500k pots and bumble bee caps along with new Throbak pickups (MXV-SLE-101 Plus ) and the difference was mind blowing www.throbak.com try this and you will be amazed as I was !

  3. #3

    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    Isn’t 1986 in the wheelhouse for the 300k pots?

    My 86 “59 reissue” had them.

    Swapping them out for nice 500k pots was a very good move.

    If your custom is stock, you probably have Tim Shaw humbuckers which are very decent.
    Swap those pots out first, 50’s wiring scheme and then you’ll know what you’re dealing with.

  4. #4

    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    I appreciate the responses!

    I definitely think replacing the pots and/or wiring is a good move. I was thinking I'd just get a prewired kit and was leaning toward the RS Guitarworks modern for starters. They also have one that offers coil splitting and stuff but that sort of complexity scares me a little bit. I'd also have to replace both pickups, wouldn't I? I'm leaning toward keeping the stock neck pickup. To be honest, the idea of soldering it myself seems a little daunting. I'd probably be better off having a pro do it.

    VERY IMPORTANT
    I'm left-handed. Does this have any impact on which pots? It definitely impacts the prewired kits I just linked.

  5. #5

    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    Firstly, none of these guitars exist without photographic evidence. : P


    Secondly, the 500k harness s the first thing to try.

  6. #6

    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdubya View Post
    Firstly, none of these guitars exist without photographic evidence. : P


    Secondly, the 500k harness s the first thing to try.
    OK so, having fetched the guitar from the rehearsal space, I realize that I replaced the neck pup with a van zandt pickup -- so I have the dimarzio dp100 bridge and some van zandt.

    What is the best 500k harness? I've been looking at this one but want to be sure it's the right one for my left-handed Les Paul.

    I've got pics of the guitar, but don't see any feature on this forum to add it to this post.

  7. #7
    Les Paul Forum Member J.D.'s Avatar
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    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    CTS makes 500k pots with a "left hand" taper

    I'd try a lower wind pickup with Alnico V magnets, like a T-Top.

  8. #8

    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.D. View Post
    CTS makes 500k pots with a "left hand" taper
    This is precisely the sort of thing I'm worried about. Bought a brand new Fender strat and, right out of the box, there was something funny about the volume knob. You turned it to 10 (as indicated on the knob itself) and the volume would be zero. I explained this to myself as the guitar builders thinking that a lefty would want the rotation reversed so as to have the mirror image of a right-handed player's experience.

    Both my Les Pauls are what I'm used to: turn clockwise to make it louder, counterclockwise for quieter. The numbers on the knob actually correspond to volume levels. There's another thread on this forum that goes into detail about this. Under no circumstances do I want knobs that say ZERO when the guitar is cranked up. That's just stupid. Also, I don't think I've seen any guitar volume knobs that have the numbers going the other way.


    Quote Originally Posted by J.D. View Post
    I'd try a lower wind pickup with Alnico V magnets, like a T-Top.
    My 91 Les Paul Standard has Seymour Duncan SH-1's and I love the way it sounds. That said, I'm hoping for a crunchier sound in this other guitar. More bite for nasty chugs please. I know what you mean by 'lower wind' -- fewer wraps of the wire around the coil -- but AFAIK, pickup makers don't publish this info. I'm guessing one must use the DC resistance to get some idea of this (lower resistance means fewer winds, higher resistance means higher winds?).

    Why Alnico V? That seems very specific materials-wise, but not very specific product-wise. Could you elaborate?

  9. #9
    Les Paul Forum Member J.D.'s Avatar
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    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    You can buy lefty knobs aftermarket as well.

    Alnico V is brighter than Alnico II and not as harsh as ceramic. You can get a lot of idea of a pickup's sound by wire gauge and resistance plus magnet type.

  10. #10

    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.D. View Post
    You can buy lefty knobs aftermarket as well.
    I don't want special "lefty" knobs. I want it to work like all my gibsons always have: clockwise=higher, no special knobs. Anything else is just silly. I can't think of a single device where you turn a knob counter-clockwise fo increase the volume.

    I guess I'll contact RS GuitarWorks directly and ask them how they wire their kits. Are there any other pre-wired kits that folks recommend? Any thoughts on the RS modern vs vintage kits?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.D. View Post
    Alnico V is brighter than Alnico II and not as harsh as ceramic. You can get a lot of idea of a pickup's sound by wire gauge and resistance plus magnet type.
    Do they publish the wire gauge and resistance specs for pickups? I'd love to compare some other pups to the Duncan SH-1s in my standard.

    Also, for anyone who needs Gold Grover Rotomatic tuners with the tulip back and keystone knob, you apparently have to buy a pack of six but they look quite affordable here:
    https://www.tubesandmore.com/product...e-141-keystone

  11. #11

    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    OK so I just spoke to a guy named Billy at RS Guitarworks and am very happy to report that he said I can get a lefty pre-wired kit that has the pots wired "with a right-hand turn" like all stock lefty Gibsons are. He said to just mention that I want the right-hand turn pots in the order form's comments box. I've ordered the kit and look forward to seeing what kind of impact it has.

    Now I just need to decide about the pickups...

  12. #12
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    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    I recently converted an LP Gothic 2 50s wiring but put in high output Seymour Duncan sentient and Pegasus pickups. I used a wiring harness from Jackson Electronics luthier JEL 550k Centralab Spec VIPs with Vitamin Q PIO Caps. All the pots are reading 580k. You may want to check him out via reverb.com and see if he can hook you up with Lefty pots if you so desire. It sounds like you're okay with standard pots though.

    Well I wouldn't have characterized the Gothic as being "dark" before (I know, we're not talking asthetics here), it is now the brightest sounding guitar I own amongst four different Gibson's. Like your Custom, it has an ebony fretboard. I'm not sure whether or not I'm chambered or not. I assume that it is.

    The "sweep" in terms of volume is now far greater than the original set up. You barely get any volume below 3 and between 8-10is like hitting a boost pedal. I'm finding that I have to be very precise where I put the volume and tone now. Once installed, I really had to change my approach to how I set my amp gain and my EQ. That being said, I really kind of like it now that I'm getting used to it. The character is very unique when you roll back the tone in terms of clarity. When you back to tone down to about 3, that's when you get the woman tone on the neck pickup, whereas it would have been around five or six with the old ashtray harness and Gibson pots.

    To say that the guitar has a very bright attack in terms of its sound now is an understatement. However, it's nice to have a Gibson that it's very different from my others in terms of its sound. Once you get used to how to approach dialing in the sound and playing with your EQ, you can easily get some vintage tones, especially from the Sentient neck pickup ( which I'm absolutely in love with now). If anything at all, the guitar is less "forgiving" due to the new pickups' clarity and won't cover your sloppy playing which I've found out much to my chagrin!

    I've compared my guitar with a buddy who has a relatively new Les Paul Traditional unsure of the year) with a SD Jazz/JB setup. He still has the OEM standard wiring in his guitar and it does sound beautiful. I don't know if the fingerboard and slightly thicker neck on the Traditional has anything to do with the slight variation in tone. It definitely is stronger in the mid-range acoustically and when played through a pushed tube amp. The Gothic definitely is brighter and poppier when finger-picked or when you do sustained note bends.

    The JB actually does sound a little louder than the Pegasus. However, this may be due to its tone profile in terms of having a bit more treble. When I tried his guitar and was using the JB, I had to back off the tone a lot because of the amount of treble. On the other hand, the Pegasus definitely has some more bass chunk to it which I like. It just sounds clearer even with a ton of molten gain.

    In terms of the two neck pickups, again the Sentient is definitely clearer with distortion and is a little more "precise" when the the gain starts to get pushed. When compared well playing clean through the same Fender Deluxe Reverb, there's a little more Bass to the sentient.

    My real question is now that we've compared the two guitars, how much of a factor do the pots and the Vitamin Q caps play in the story? (I look to others who have more technical knowledge and experience and I do to answer this more precisely) All I can say is that my buddy was really liking the "hot rod" of Gothic and had a big fat grin when playing some jazzy Lydian licks with the Fender Deluxe slightly breaking up well being pushed by a Wampler Tumnus pedal.

    Keep us posted on how your project goes!
    Last edited by WytLytnyn; 09-02-19 at 07:32 AM.
    I heard the news lady..All about your disease.......

  13. #13
    All Access/Backstage Pass Wilko's Avatar
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    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    You've mentioned noticing the difference unplugged. That means you are in the group that can tell the difference. I believe that the period from 1976 until 1992 is really not so good. Most of that dark/muffled sound/feel sound is due to the different construction. That neck joint just plain sucks compared to the real deal.

    Yeah, you brighten the electric sound, but that guitar just isn't going to give much in the way of rich harmonic overtones. Good enough guitar for most people who just can't notice the difference and swear that the wood doesn't make any difference.

    News flash, the quality of the wood and construction is what separates the tone turds from the great ones.

  14. #14
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    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilko View Post
    You've mentioned noticing the difference unplugged. That means you are in the group that can tell the difference. I believe that the period from 1976 until 1992 is really not so good. Most of that dark/muffled sound/feel sound is due to the different construction. That neck joint just plain sucks compared to the real deal.

    Yeah, you brighten the electric sound, but that guitar just isn't going to give much in the way of rich harmonic overtones. Good enough guitar for most people who just can't notice the difference and swear that the wood doesn't make any difference.

    News flash, the quality of the wood and construction is what separates the tone turds from the great ones.
    Yep , if its a crap sounding guitar its a crap sunding guitar , better pickups and pots will just "pickup" more of the crap tone . Sell it and buy a better guitar .

  15. #15
    Les Paul Forum Member musekatcher's Avatar
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    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilko View Post
    You've mentioned noticing the difference unplugged. That means you are in the group that can tell the difference. I believe that the period from 1976 until 1992 is really not so good. Most of that dark/muffled sound/feel sound is due to the different construction. That neck joint just plain sucks compared to the real deal.

    Yeah, you brighten the electric sound, but that guitar just isn't going to give much in the way of rich harmonic overtones. Good enough guitar for most people who just can't notice the difference and swear that the wood doesn't make any difference.

    News flash, the quality of the wood and construction is what separates the tone turds from the great ones.
    I don't know that its wood alone, but some guitars, including Gibsons, just have a different response. I use the word "different" because some folks value a lot of natural sustain, such as when its unplugged, and some folks want more attack - which is code for less sustain. Some want more low end, low string response, some want more high end, trebly response. And then there's the interaction with various amps. Here's a checklist of things I look for, or adjust:

    Wiring, caps and pots - this can take a while to understand and tweak to your liking.
    Pickups* - low output generally means brighter. Opposite generally means muddy wo high gain.
    Strings - consider plated steel, versus nickel. Think about guages. If its too dark, *and this is very unintuitive*, try heavier wound strings. The heavier strings produce *less* output because they don't swing as wide a path as thinner strings. This will exaggerate the plain strings, especially when strumming.
    Maintenance - check that the bridge, saddles, tailpiece and tuners are all tight. Check the nut is glued, and that the string slots are not pinching the string. Check the frets for loosness, deadspots can be loosened frets.
    Gain - high gain can substantially brighten up dark, high output pickups, and make bright pickups icepicky.
    Amp - more sustain can be pulled with higher gain, tweeked eq, tone control, etc. Some amount of feedback too can be flattering.

    *The pickups float, not really coupled to the body or the wood. Once you adjust the wiring, pots, pickups, you're down to the other factors. After strings and maintenance items, I personally think the next important factor is the neck. Its one of the two anchors for the strings. Also, on Fenders and other guitars, you can readily observe how important the neck is, by swapping them. With a Gibson, you've got what you've got. But all is not lost.

    I hear and see lots of complaints of Gibsons and humbucker guitar being muddy. For me, its always been the pups and electronics, or amp/pedals/cords.

    I hear and see lots of complaints of no sustain. For me, that has always been the nature of the neck. Heavier strings reduces the plugged attack, and improves the sustain. Also, I may use higher gain with such a guitar to compensate. Its never going to give a single coil-like clean, and thats ok. Nobody wanted that sound in the early 80's anyway, right?

    I think every guitar has some merit, and you have to work with it and exploit it. If I had a 1986 Custom (I would LOVE to have this guitar), I'd keep working with it, and figure out what it does well, and exploit that.

  16. #16

    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    Quote Originally Posted by WytLytnyn View Post
    I recently converted an LP Gothic 2 50s wiring but put in high output Seymour Duncan sentient and Pegasus pickups. I used a wiring harness from Jackson Electronics luthier JEL 550k Centralab Spec VIPs with Vitamin Q PIO Caps. All the pots are reading 580k. You may want to check him out via reverb.com and see if he can hook you up with Lefty pots if you so desire. It sounds like you're okay with standard pots though.
    I really dig your whole post here. I went for the RS Guitarworks pre-wired modern kit. I just got notified that it has shipped today. So ready for it to be here.

    I expect I'll order the Black Winter pickups from Seymour Duncan and take advantage of their 21-day exchange policy if the pickups don't sound right. Maybe go for the SH-6 ones as a fallback option.

    I noticed that the factory-installed pots are all attached to a metal backplate. I unscrewed the potentiometer nut on one of the existing pots but it wouldn't come out. It's evidently also rigidly attached to that metal plate. If I unscrew all the pots will it come out? Or is the backplate bolted to the guitar? Also, is it customary to install the new wiring harness with all the pots still attached to the new plastic plate? Or should I detach all the new pots from their plastic plate and attach them directly to the guitar body like the guy did in his SG in this video? Seems like it'd be easier to replace individual pots if they are just attached to the guitar body itself. Advice very much wanted here.

  17. #17

    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    Quote Originally Posted by musekatcher View Post
    I don't know that its wood alone, but some guitars, including Gibsons, just have a different response. I use the word "different" because some folks value a lot of natural sustain, such as when its unplugged, and some folks want more attack - which is code for less sustain. Some want more low end, low string response, some want more high end, trebly response. And then there's the interaction with various amps. Here's a checklist of things I look for, or adjust:
    Thanks for this detailed breakdown. I do think the wood and neck joinery sound right decent and am very excited to see what the new wiring harness does.

  18. #18
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    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    Quote Originally Posted by sneakyimp View Post
    I expect I'll order the Black Winter pickups from Seymour Duncan and take advantage of their 21-day exchange policy if the pickups don't sound right. Maybe go for the SH-6 ones as a fallback option.

    I noticed that the factory-installed pots are all attached to a metal backplate. I unscrewed the potentiometer nut on one of the existing pots but it wouldn't come out. It's evidently also rigidly attached to that metal plate. If I unscrew all the pots will it come out? Or is the backplate bolted to the guitar? Also, is it customary to install the new wiring harness with all the pots still attached to the new plastic plate? Or should I detach all the new pots from their plastic plate and attach them directly to the guitar body like the guy did in his SG in this video? Seems like it'd be easier to replace individual pots if they are just attached to the guitar body itself. Advice very much wanted here.
    I imagine that you can't go wrong with the RS setup given their reputation for quality. This weekend (while checking out a 92 Studio), I played an 87 LP that had their high end treatment and was blown away at how light it was, the quality of workmanship and the sound. I just can't afford a guitar in that range. I'd rather hot rod a cheaper model and the resale value be damned....

    I saw some clips of the Black Winters but I guess they were a little to focused in their sound for my ears and tastes. That aside, I hope that they meet your expectations and offend your neighbors at high volume.

    I didn't have any issues ripping out the "ashtray" wiring kit that you are dealing with. I assume that you're just going to have to get something to help loosen that bit and get that rig out of there.

    I'll be watching this thread to see how your project turns out.
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  19. #19
    All Access/Backstage Pass Progrocker111's Avatar
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    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    Many of the early to mid 80s Customs i played were very dark and muffled sounding, most of them were very heavy in weight too (often above 11 lbs). I think the combination of heavy and non resonant wood and cheap 300k or even 100k linear pots with Shaw humbuckers can be the reason of this. 500k audio pots and better caps can open the tone of the guitar and let more of treble pass in.
    My diagnosis is: Hiwatt and Norlinphilia


    2014 Gibson Les Paul Junior 1957 Custom Shop
    1972 Hiwatt DR103, 1972 Hiwatt SE4122

  20. #20

    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    OK so I got the guitar back from the shop late on Sunday and took it down to the rehearsal space today and tried it through a Marshall JCM 2000 DSL and a Boogie Dual Rectifier into a Boogie 4x12 cab. My observations:
    * The guitar sounds really rich and bright overall now. The upgrade came out to about $335 (parts and shipping only, this does not include labor) including six new gold grover keystone/tulip tuning heads, four new knobs, two brand new black winter pickups, a new pickup ring, and the RS Guitarworks wiring harness.
    * I think most of the noticeable improvement is probably due to the wiring harness. I measured the original, old pots removed from the guitar and the tone pots were 85k & 86k. The volume pots were 261k and 349k. In hindsight, I believe this was almost entirely the cause for the dark sound.
    * So far I think the guitar tech did a nice job installing. I looked inside at the shop and was a bit concerned that his wiring looked a little different than the RS Guitarworks wiring diagram, but he said that he reversed the phase of the bridge pickup to get around phase cancellation problems when the switch was in the middle position and both pickups were engaged. I've plugged the guitar in and twiddled the knobs and switches and it sounds clean and clear and solid. He also took care to put shrink tubing on the pickup go keep the extra conductor wires tidy and snug
    * These black winter pickups are HOT. Even with super clean, low-gain settings you get some crunch and break-up when you give the guitar a crisp strum.
    * The pickups *might* have a hair less low-end than the SH-1 pickups I have in my other Les Paul, but I'd wager you can get that low end back by using a slightly lower pre-gain setting on the amp and a higher master volume. The black winter pickups are so hot and bright and full of mids that you can get crunchy sounds even with just moderate amounts of gain. Something to experiment with.
    * The tone is hotter and brighter and crunchier and bitey than the Seymour Duncan SH-1s in my other Les Paul.

    At this point, I consider this upgrade a success. The guitar sounds SO much better than the dark sound it had before. I expect when I record something with it, that I'll enjoy a sound that is a lot richer in the mids and highs.

  21. #21
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    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    Are you still liking the guitar and the mods?
    I heard the news lady..All about your disease.......

  22. #22

    Re: 86 Les Paul Custom too dark - brighten? or embrace the darkness?

    Quote Originally Posted by sneakyimp View Post
    * I think most of the noticeable improvement is probably due to the wiring harness. I measured the original, old pots removed from the guitar and the tone pots were 85k & 86k. The volume pots were 261k and 349k. In hindsight, I believe this was almost entirely the cause for the dark sound.
    This, especially the 100k tone pots, which allow a lot of treble loss off the bat. Figure its like having your 500k tone knob turned down to about 4. I just posted about my experience rewiring my recently acquired '83 Custom. It had 300K (measured 350) volume pots and 100k tone pots. It was definitely dark and wooly. I put in 500k pots, which actually were too much for the volume control, as they boosted the resonant peak amplitude to the point of sounding shrill. I went back to 300k on the volume and 500k tone. The 500k tone pots made all the difference.

    Here's my post, for anyone interested: https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/s...ots-too-shrill

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