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  1. #41
    Les Paul Forum Member ourmaninthenorth's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    I've never seen one of these either.

    What do you think Rob, worth a go?
    Shakespeare walks into a pub, the Landlord says "get out, you're Bard"

  2. #42
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdubya View Post


    Now I have to post my favorite Phil X video.



    really nice looking Epi. ..wonder who ďborrowedĒ the control knobs.

  3. #43
    Les Paul Forum Member J.D.'s Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by fakejake View Post
    Wow, this is new to me!! Anyone has tried this??
    I haven't seen this before, but if using heavy strings I'd be a bit concerned about the stress on the ABR-1 studs.

  4. #44
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Me too ..this kinda defies why players use double abr wheels

  5. #45
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    mdubya..not to sidetrack here ..but you postin that dang PhilX vid made me dig up this tune that Phil played ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RlYO-lVrSCg ) ...Iíll be cranking my Marshall to this one later ..carry on folks

  6. #46
    Les Paul Forum Member guitplayer's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by indravayu View Post
    Get a Towner Down Tension Bar II - which is made for guitars with trapeze tailpieces.

    http://townerusa.com/product/down-tension-bar-ii/

    Seems like a worthy try.
    " Never Mind Your Face, just show us your card"

  7. #47
    Les Paul Forum Member fakejake's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by guitplayer View Post
    Seems like a worthy try.
    I guess if you add a second set of thumbwheels, and mount that thing firmly between the top of the guitar and the second set of thumbwheels, it should work without bending the posts.

  8. #48

    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by ourmaninthenorth View Post
    I've never seen one of these either.

    What do you think Rob, worth a go?
    Whilst that would make the break angle over the ABR steeper, itís something I donít need to do on this guitar. The fact remains that the string length behind the bridge is still the same, so the tension remains the same.

    Rob
    -----------------
    Rob Livesey
    Manchester, UK

  9. #49
    Les Paul Forum Member fakejake's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by rob livesey View Post
    The fact remains that the string length behind the bridge is still the same, so the tension remains the same.

    Rob
    Could you explain what you mean by that? Are you implying that only the length of the strings behind the bridge affects tension?
    Just curious!

  10. #50
    Les Paul Forum Member Gold Tone's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    No worry that it would bend the posts. The point of contact is such that the force would need to be massive to bend the posts

  11. #51
    Les Paul Forum Member ourmaninthenorth's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by rob livesey View Post
    Whilst that would make the break angle over the ABR steeper, itís something I donít need to do on this guitar. The fact remains that the string length behind the bridge is still the same, so the tension remains the same.

    Rob
    I see it as actually shortening (breaking) the string length behind the abr Rob. The gizmo, whilst not being an anchor point, is certainly a pivot point.

    Plus it's in exactly the place where Mr Gelber suggests the stop should be, thereby mimicking the string length behind the bridge that a stop would, again with the concession that's it's a pivot rather than an anchor point.
    Shakespeare walks into a pub, the Landlord says "get out, you're Bard"

  12. #52
    Les Paul Forum Member guitplayer's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Just play the bloody thing.
    " Never Mind Your Face, just show us your card"

  13. #53
    Les Paul Forum Member deytookerjaabs's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    That doohickey doesn't look too far off, in concept, from the "Buzz Stop" you see dudes put on Jazzmasters that's worth a googling. Same idea, steepen the break angle behind the bridge.







    In the right hands a Kalamazoo ES w/trapeze will do the job just fine.

  14. #54

    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by fakejake View Post
    Could you explain what you mean by that? Are you implying that only the length of the strings behind the bridge affects tension?
    Just curious!
    Not only. But contributes to. The length of string behind the bridge remains the same as before.

    Rob
    -----------------
    Rob Livesey
    Manchester, UK

  15. #55
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    The tension is set by the scale length. Break angles and string length beyond nut and bridge change the feel, or maybe stiffness - how much effort is required to displace the string by fretting or bending.

    Possibly pedantic I know! But tension is a fixed thing, anything else is more feel, but still valid nonetheless.

  16. #56

    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by garywright View Post
    mdubya..not to sidetrack here ..but you postin that dang PhilX vid made me dig up this tune that Phil played ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RlYO-lVrSCg ) ...Iíll be cranking my Marshall to this one later ..carry on folks

    I find that video to be particularly inspiring.



    Quote Originally Posted by guitplayer View Post
    Just play the bloody thing.

    Amen to that!

  17. #57
    Les Paul Forum Member OKGuitar's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Let me clarify. I generally don't advocate modding a vintage guitar. I don't control the market, so when I say the stop tail mod (done correctly) doesn't affect the market value, its isn't an opinion. It's what I've experienced over years of sales. Someone made the point that you should find one that's already been modded and I agree with that but that doesn't really address the issue of whether to mod a trap tail 335. As recently as a few years ago, I was pretty vocal about the "sanctity" of vintage guitars. Now, I'm not. There are certain mods that make a lot of sense and the guitar, after all is said and done, is made to be played. I used to rail against modding 345's for mono and removing the Varitone. Now I do the mod myself frequently (although that mod is totally reversible). Making a good guitar better is never a bad thing from a player's standpoint. For an investor, I would stick to my rule of never modding a mint or near mint guitar unless the mod can be reversed. There are plenty of player grade trap tail 335's out there for those who want a stop tail.

  18. #58
    Les Paul Forum Member fakejake's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by OKGuitar View Post
    Let me clarify. I generally don't advocate modding a vintage guitar. I don't control the market, so when I say the stop tail mod (done correctly) doesn't affect the market value, its isn't an opinion. It's what I've experienced over years of sales. Someone made the point that you should find one that's already been modded and I agree with that but that doesn't really address the issue of whether to mod a trap tail 335. As recently as a few years ago, I was pretty vocal about the "sanctity" of vintage guitars. Now, I'm not. There are certain mods that make a lot of sense and the guitar, after all is said and done, is made to be played. I used to rail against modding 345's for mono and removing the Varitone. Now I do the mod myself frequently (although that mod is totally reversible). Making a good guitar better is never a bad thing from a player's standpoint. For an investor, I would stick to my rule of never modding a mint or near mint guitar unless the mod can be reversed. There are plenty of player grade trap tail 335's out there for those who want a stop tail.
    Have you ever experienced that a traptail 335 suffered negative consequences from a properly done stoptail conversion? I.e. a loss in sustain, deadnotes that weren't there before, less character to the sound?
    Or did all of the conversions you had done always significantly improved the respective guitars?

  19. #59
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    blah,blah,blah

  20. #60
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    I'd keep the original tailpiece, but try an ABR-1 with metal saddles and see how that changed the tone.

  21. #61

    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    With all due respect, OP said he wants to less string tension.

  22. #62
    Les Paul Forum Member OKGuitar's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by fakejake View Post
    Have you ever experienced that a traptail 335 suffered negative consequences from a properly done stoptail conversion? I.e. a loss in sustain, deadnotes that weren't there before, less character to the sound?
    Or did all of the conversions you had done always significantly improved the respective guitars?
    Never negative but not always an improvement. I've heard from others who have had a negative experience doing the conversion.

  23. #63
    Les Paul Forum Member Tidepoolbay's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by fakejake View Post
    I would really not do this. The guitar is in such a fine condition, looks almost mint. And the trapeze really isn't such a bad feature.
    I have a 1970 335, and I considered this mod for quite a while. I'm glad I didn't go through with it. There are plenty of threads on various forums, where guys report how the mod changed the guitar for the worse.
    And what if you find an earlier 335 at some point with the stop tail already added, and want to sell this one? You'll loose a lot of money by converting it.
    It's a beautiful as it is, and I bet it plays and sounds great! Just my 2c...
    I agree. The guitar looks mint! Almost as if it were a reissue! Very, very, nice guitar!
    Woof!!!

  24. #64

    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by rob livesey View Post
    Hi Chaps,

    I picked this one up this week. I think it's 69 based on features. One piece neck, no volute, no "Made in USA", witch hats, no dot over the "i" in Gibson and the one pot I can read with a dental mirror is dated 11th week of 1968.

    I have a desire to add a stoptail, as it is a little tight on the tension front, but the guitar is in very very good all original condition, I would say 9/10. This does present a dilemma, as it's just so clean and original. But I do want to keep it and play it.

    Will I devalue the guitar greatly if I do this?

    Also, where can I find a 68/69 repro chrome stoptail, studs and bushings that I would need to keep the look of the guitar as "period correct"?

    Thanks in advance,
    Rob.



    Just looking at the photos again, that is such a sweet guitar!

    If string tension really is your main concern, and going down in string gauge is no palatable (although round core Pure Nickel would help), I would take it to a very good luthier for set up with the objective of lighter string tension. A stop tail alone won't necessarily fix that concern.

  25. #65
    All Access/Backstage Pass Wilko's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    The original post says "I have a desire to add a stoptail, as it is a little tight on the tension front..."

    A stop will give tighter feeling tension.

  26. #66
    Les Paul Forum Member deytookerjaabs's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    "Tension" is not an all encompassing term. The different directions of force & distance & action all play a big role on how one perceives tension....they're all tuned to the same pitch.


    If a Trapeze 335 had a Tele saddle, when you bend, the string would move around on the saddle because there's no extra downward break force keeping it in place. However, a Tele/Strat saddle doesn't even need a notch because of the strong break. Instead, with a notched ABR saddle and a very shallow break the string leans towards the side of the notch in the saddle during a big bend giving a different feel one may perceive as stiff (all depending on other setup factors). The longer the string length behind the saddle the more or less this effect comes into play. Either way, giving a steeper break angle will increase the downward force on the saddle and as that's increased the tendency of the string to lean when bent is decreased....along with a host of other things like vibration bleed etc.


    Again, this is a very common topic for Jazzmaster guys hence the "Buzz Stop" being on the market and it definitely makes a Jazzmaster feel more like a Strat/Tele when bending/vibrato in terms of string action.

    I say first experiment with stiffer or looser strings at different gauges to see if you find a happy medium. It could go one way or the other. Then, try that ABR buzz stop type thingy...if you don't like the later there's a good chance you might not even like the guitar after a stop tail is added.

  27. #67
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilko View Post
    The original post says "I have a desire to add a stoptail, as it is a little tight on the tension front..."

    A stop will give tighter feeling tension.
    exactly ..that is, unless it’s jacked up an inch or two

  28. #68

    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by garywright View Post
    exactly ..that is, unless itís jacked up an inch or two
    Or top wrapped.

    But, in general, trapeze are usually easier on break angle. : D

  29. #69
    All Access/Backstage Pass Wilko's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    I like that add-on device idea.

    (I love my converted '65) A trapeze on a 335 is just wrong.

  30. #70

    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    I'd try dropping a string gauge before doing anything radical. I have 11s on my 64 335 and 10s on my new 67 Trini.

    Both are fine.

  31. #71
    Les Paul Forum Member TM1's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Rob; Get an ABM Bell Brass ABR-1 and a set of Pyramid .010-.046 Nickel Classics.
    https://abm-guitarpartsshop.com/ABM-...ckel::153.html

  32. #72
    Les Paul Forum Member Truss Rob's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by rob livesey View Post
    Hi Chaps,

    I picked this one up this week. I think it's 69 based on features. One piece neck, no volute, no "Made in USA", witch hats, no dot over the "i" in Gibson and the one pot I can read with a dental mirror is dated 11th week of 1968.

    I have a desire to add a stoptail, as it is a little tight on the tension front, but the guitar is in very very good all original condition, I would say 9/10. This does present a dilemma, as it's just so clean and original. But I do want to keep it and play it.

    Will I devalue the guitar greatly if I do this?

    Also, where can I find a 68/69 repro chrome stoptail, studs and bushings that I would need to keep the look of the guitar as "period correct"?

    Thanks in advance,
    Rob.



    I really wouldn't touch it at all . Beautiful , beautiful guitar . Best of luck with it. It's a gem. It is vintage . And there is this "given" and "understood " taboo about modding a vintage guitar. I'm sure there are different schools of thought on de-valuing it by adding a stop piece.. but from what I have seen, heard , and owned, you will devalue it. If you want it to hold it's value, and I'm guessing close to $7,000 ( you can pick a reissue up for about $5,800) , I would leave the trapeze. Just a humble dude's opinion .

  33. #73

    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Hi chaps,

    Thanks for all the input regarding my guitar, it really is appreciated, and interesting to hear all the differing opinions.

    At this moment, I will leave it original and see how I get on with it. I may try some different strings and see if I can get the feel Iím looking for.

    Some have mentioned getting a Reissue stoptail 335 to satisfy this urge, well, I already own one, so I donít need to go there, and I can feel the difference in the two guitars. As for price, I actually could not buy a new Reissue for the price I paid for this one!

    Thanks again.
    Rob
    -----------------
    Rob Livesey
    Manchester, UK

  34. #74
    Les Paul Forum Member TM1's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Good on ya my Friend!

  35. #75
    Les Paul Forum Member JPP-1's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    I have a trap tail 1966 345. No issues with sustain or string tension. On the other hand, Restringing is a royal pita. That said, if I felt I would see a demonstrable improvement in tone sustains etc., I wouldn’t hesitate converting it to a stop tail. I think there is a distinction from adding a stop tail to a 335 to increase playability and what is often egregious hacking of perfectly good P90 Les Paul to burstify it.

    As far as value is concerned, what’s a 1969 335 going to be worth? There is nothing more valuable than time and if a stoptail increases the enjoyment you get out of the time you spend with your 335 then I think it would be foolish not to do it.

  36. #76

    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    At least you've said you won't make a hasty decision. Now, for the love of gawd, man, leave this magnificent piece alone!

    You know its provenance - under a bed for 40 years! It's a stunning beauty and all original (didn't you say that?). It's a holy grail of sorts.

    If you have heavier gauge strings than 9's on it, then try 9's. I went through the whole 10's-for-better-tone thing years ago. I've gone back to 9's and now I enjoy playing again!
    And if, when all is said and done, this glorious beast doesn't feel right for you sell it to an evil collector and use the $$ to get one that's already buggered up.

  37. #77

    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Quote Originally Posted by snakecharmer View Post
    At least you've said you won't make a hasty decision. Now, for the love of gawd, man, leave this magnificent piece alone!

    You know its provenance - under a bed for 40 years! It's a stunning beauty and all original (didn't you say that?). It's a holy grail of sorts.

    If you have heavier gauge strings than 9's on it, then try 9's. I went through the whole 10's-for-better-tone thing years ago. I've gone back to 9's and now I enjoy playing again!
    And if, when all is said and done, this glorious beast doesn't feel right for you sell it to an evil collector and use the $$ to get one that's already buggered up.
    I normally use DíAddario 10ís on everything, but I have just bought some 9.5ís, which Iím going to string it up with tomorrow. Iíll report back.......
    -----------------
    Rob Livesey
    Manchester, UK

  38. #78

    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Update.

    I strung it up today with 9.5ís instead of my usual 10ís. All is well. That small change in string gauge has made all the difference. They do feel lighter under my fingers but the bends are as manageable on this guitar now as they are on my other guitars.

    Another all original 60ís 335 escapes the luthiers knife to live another day.........

    Thanks for all the input chaps.

    Rob
    -----------------
    Rob Livesey
    Manchester, UK

  39. #79

    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Good news.

  40. #80
    Les Paul Forum Member Gold Tone's Avatar
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    Re: Adding a Stoptail to a 1969 335?

    Hurray!!!

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