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What makes a vintage guitar "player grade"?

Thundermtn

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Dec 30, 2016
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Besides having some bumps and bruises what makes a vintage guitar player grade vs. a collector grade instrument? I know a re-fret hurts the value on them but if I was going to be actually playing one quite a bit I'm going to be working on the frets pretty well myself. At this point does a guitar with it's original 90's or PAF's make it a collector guitar regardless of the condition of the finish?

I realize that everyone will have their own definition of what they will accept for wear and tear, but am curious about opinions on the list of conditions that makes one a player and one that needs to be kept as mint as possible.
 

garywright

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some things included would be a headstock repair ..a refin ..pickup, tuner and tailpiece swaps that involved any routing or additional holes drilled.
 

Maxmc

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I may be wrong but I didn't think a refret was classed as a devaluation. You won't see a vintage Ferrari with bald tyres.
 

J.D.

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Frets are more like brakes than tires. Original pristine frets are always going to fetch a higher price than the same refretted guitar. Doesn't make it player grade though.
 

sonar

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There's antique cars you trailer to shows, really old cars you drive around town and everything in the middle...

If you're actively looking to buy for your personal collection try to avoid these blanket statements unless you are -

specifically looking for mint condition, 100% original pieces

or

a combination of refins, headstock repair, electronic and/or hardware replacement, etc.

A lot of vintage gear, at least pieces I and other guitarists I personally know tend to own, fall somewhere in between "player" or "collector" grade descriptors.

I agree with JD about frets.
 

Tom Wittrock

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Original pristine frets are always going to fetch a higher price than the same refretted guitar.

Only to a very small group.
Most collectors don't care much, assuming it has a great fret job. I can't remember losing a sale on a vintage guitar because of a refret [if it was a great refret].
 

sonar

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Only to a very small group.
Most collectors don't care much, assuming it has a great fret job. I can't remember losing a sale on a vintage guitar because of a refret [if it was a great refret].

It probably doesn't matter if you're selling at fair market value, but if you're really pushing the high-end of the market...

then again, the top dollar pieces attract the very small group you mention.
 

J.D.

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I must be in this minority then. A guitar with a refret, especially one with the nibs removed, is worth less to me personally than itself with its original frets (assuming original frets are not worn out). I've seen like-new historics for sale with new frets (generally different size than original) and they can be tough to sell.

If you are saying that a guitar with a fresh, professional refret is more desirable than itself with completely worn out original frets, I'd agree.
 

garywright

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I've seen like-new historics for sale with new frets (generally different size than original) and they can be tough to sell.
that doesn’t surprise me in the least ..with so Many historics available why get one right off the bat that’s not stock ...vintage guitars are a whole different market
 

lewis_grey

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Feb 14, 2016
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Mine has no headstock repair and original finish, I think it still counts as player grade....
 

Tom Wittrock

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It probably doesn't matter if you're selling at fair market value, but if you're really pushing the high-end of the market...

then again, the top dollar pieces attract the very small group you mention.

Not trying to argue this, but my personal experience selling high end Bursts and Goldtops differs. I guess I don't deal with enthusiasts who care so much about that aspect.

Of course "fair market value" can include the high end of the market.
But the phrase means different things to different people.
As does the simple word … value. :ganz
 

deytookerjaabs

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<<<<<<< If said user can afford it. :salude


In all honesty, I ain't much on the funds like some 'round here but I've always loved a good refin or headstock repair or replaced parts etc etc etc at the proper price and I'm very thankful the market highly values clean/mint/original stuff thus leaving the scent of scraps for us scavengers. Unfortunately, some things are worth so much now you couldn't destroy it enough to get it down to the cost barometer that used to imply it was affordable for he whom gigged the local taverns on the regular. Now "player grade" is some guy's business hacking any 50's Gibson into a pseudo 'burst, or taking some change off that refin' blackguard or...on and on the list goes.
 

notchback

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Dec 2, 2019
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If a mid 1959 Junior (with the "wide" frets) has like 3 or 4 really worn and bumpy frets and the rest are practically brand new, should you do a fret level and shave down almost a full fretboard of perfect frets? It seems so wasteful to do that. It is possible to just replace the worn frets?
 

johnreardon

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Only to a very small group.
Most collectors don't care much, assuming it has a great fret job. I can't remember losing a sale on a vintage guitar because of a refret [if it was a great refret].

Believe it or not Tom, I have sold some modern LPs, mainly Custom Shop, where potential buyers have asked about whether the frets were original or not. They were, but I asked one chap why he asked and he said he would have wanted a couple of hundred knocked off the price :spabout
 

Tom Wittrock

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Aug 2, 2001
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If a mid 1959 Junior (with the "wide" frets) has like 3 or 4 really worn and bumpy frets and the rest are practically brand new, should you do a fret level and shave down almost a full fretboard of perfect frets? It seems so wasteful to do that. It is possible to just replace the worn frets?

Yes, it is a simple thing for a skilled repairman.
 

Tom Wittrock

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Believe it or not Tom, I have sold some modern LPs, mainly Custom Shop, where potential buyers have asked about whether the frets were original or not. They were, but I asked one chap why he asked and he said he would have wanted a couple of hundred knocked off the price :spabout

But that's not what I am discussing, here in the Vintage area. :ganz
 

Maxmc

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Mar 15, 2015
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Of course a vintage guitar with original playable frets would be the ultimate piece for a collector. But these guitars are as rare as rocking horse poo. A designated vintage guitar will often be well played and what's the point in having a guitar, vintage or otherwise, with frets so badly pitted that intonation is impossible to achieve and thus the guitar sounds "out of tune". Great tone but out of tune. Why would you pay $100k, $200k or $300k for a guitar that looks the goods but sounds terrible for want of a refret. Half of the reason of buying a vintage guitar is the sound. Why is a 59 Les Paul so sort after? It's the sound, tone, playability and lastly the look. Bottom line for me is this: I've got $400k burning a hole in my pocket. I've got two contenders for my coin. A refretted but otherwise all original burst that plays like sex on a stick or one where one has to avoid certain chords because the frets are worn out. I'd probably pay more for the refret. Anyway, this rant doesn't address the OP's question. Well the first thing would obviously be a refinish. Here's a thought: often a player's grade is a great playing and sounding guitar simply because it's had the tripe played out of it because it is a great sounding and playing guitar and bits and pieces wear out. I've heard it said that the mint ones are left in the case for the reason that they just haven't got "it". Actually there's no line in the sand for player's grade. Often the mongrels lead the pack. On the other hand people will always look for an angle to negotiate the price down. I was trying to sell an upright piano once and one bloke was looking for a discount because it had some cobwebs inside it. He was enlightened about sex and travel.
 
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