Import certificate refusals? (import from US -> UK)

matei · Apr 29, 2019

Hi all,

I was about to purchase an R9 w/ a Brazilian board when I was cautioned by the seller in the US that he recently had an unfortunate experience selling to another UK buyer.

It wasn't a Gibson in this case - rather a PRS made in the '90s. The seller had the master file and export permit set up and ready to go, he sent it to the buyer so he could get an import certificate from APHA over here in the UK, however APHA refused to grant him one, saying that the EC regulations state that because the guitar was made after the addition of Brazilian rosewood to the CITES list and that as he unable to demonstrate that this guitar has previously been imported into the EU, his application was refused.

Has anyone else encountered this? I thought that the above only applied to vintage guitars, not modern guitars.

If worse comes to worse I'll pick one up when I go visit the states in July, but I did really like the model I found.

Patek · Apr 30, 2019

You need a CITES cert to bring anything with Brazilian rosewood on it into the UK

Vince Q · May 1, 2019

"
If worse comes to worse I'll pick one up when I go visit the states in July, but I did really like the model I found.
"

So if you come here and find a guitar you like with a Brazilian rosewood board can you walk it back into Old Blighty without CITES paperwork/approval?

F-Hole · May 1, 2019

Forthcoming CITES meeting will be voting on exempting "finished musical instruments" from permit requirements. The proposition has been through the preliminary working groups, with a positive recommendation. Shouldn't be an issue, therefore, after summer.

pjisaacs · May 1, 2019

Vince Q said:
"
If worse comes to worse I'll pick one up when I go visit the states in July, but I did really like the model I found.
"

So if you come here and find a guitar you like with a Brazilian rosewood board can you walk it back into Old Blighty without CITES paperwork/approval?

Correct - you can carry through with no issue

Patek · May 1, 2019

Vince Q said:
"
If worse comes to worse I'll pick one up when I go visit the states in July, but I did really like the model I found.
"

So if you come here and find a guitar you like with a Brazilian rosewood board can you walk it back into Old Blighty without CITES paperwork/approval?

Legally no, not from the US

You can walk a braz guitar between EU states without CITES (as long as it is with you)

Patek · May 1, 2019

pjisaacs said:
Correct - you can carry through with no issue

Only between EU countries. Last I read was that is the limit. You need the correct paperwork if coming from the USA even if walking through

also the OP risks getting taxed 24% of the value at the boarder when he steps off the airplane

sws1 · May 1, 2019

CITES import/export certificates are only granted to guitars that are allowed an exception. Meaning, you can prove the guitar was made before 1992. Anything made after 1992 (unless you can prove the wood was harvested before that), can't move between US/Eur at all.

So, vintage guitars can be moved...if you can a CITES certificate AND import/export certificates (which vary by country). Post 1992 guitars with post-1992 harvested brazilian can't go out of country.

And no...hand carrying a guitar, while perhaps easier to help you skirt the law, is not legal.

Vince Q · May 2, 2019

sws1 said:
And no...hand carrying a guitar, while perhaps easier to help you skirt the law, is not legal.

I figured that, not to mention a hefty duty.

pjisaacs · May 2, 2019

Patek said:
Only between EU countries. Last I read was that is the limit. You need the correct paperwork if coming from the USA even if walking through

also the OP risks getting taxed 24% of the value at the boarder when he steps off the airplane

Not saying this is 100% correct, but when I called UK customs and excise a couple of months ago they told me that CITES would not be enforced UK side on a carry through.

Of course (they emphasised) that it may be imposed US side.

And no argument that you'll be liable for duty etc.

Garincha · May 2, 2019

F-Hole said:
Forthcoming CITES meeting will be voting on exempting "finished musical instruments" from permit requirements. The proposition has been through the preliminary working groups, with a positive recommendation. Shouldn't be an issue, therefore, after summer.

I have heard that only appllies to CITES2 (Indian Rosewood among others). But Brazillian Rosewood is covered by CITES1 and that should not receive a exemption from Permit requirements. Seems like you still need proper paperwork and permits from both countries.

I might be wrong though, since I've heard that from a luthier friend of mine, not from my local customs officer.

F-Hole · May 2, 2019

Garincha said:
I might be wrong though, since I've heard that from a luthier friend of mine, not from my local customs officer.

I've recently exported 20 or so guitars from the UK to Australia, and was told "all finished musical instruments" will be exempt by the UK CITES issuing authority when specifically discussing Brazilian. Having said that, who knows what crazy rules the EU will implement.

Garincha · May 3, 2019

F-Hole said:
and was told "all finished musical instruments" will be exempt by the UK CITES issuing authority when specifically discussing Brazilian.

That is an interesting Information, thanks!
If the results of the upcoming CITES meeting will also cover CITES1, that would be great news. All those crazy regulation attempts had their roots in CITES after all. If CITES changed in that point, the regulations worldwide will certainly follow suit. The MI-industry and market might not be as large as the car industry, but there are some players - not the least being the large scale world-wide dealers like Thomann - who have at least some kind of a lobby in Brussels.

So I would expect the EU to follow the CITES pretty close.

sws1 · May 3, 2019

Somehow I suspect they’ll approve the idea, then screw up the implementation by making people go through some complicated paperwork process. Let’s hope not.

Patek · May 5, 2019

pjisaacs said:
Not saying this is 100% correct, but when I called UK customs and excise a couple of months ago they told me that CITES would not be enforced UK side on a carry through.

Of course (they emphasised) that it may be imposed US side.

And no argument that you'll be liable for duty etc.

That is the case between EU countries - but I read the opposite for non-EU though and CITES was required. You will have to do some serious googling as I did at the time as I do not have the link

this is in regards to getting guitars Into the UK

Import certificate refusals? (import from US -> UK)

matei

Banned

Patek

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Vince Q

Member

F-Hole

Well-known member

pjisaacs

Member

Patek

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Patek

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sws1

Well-known member

Vince Q

Member

pjisaacs

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Garincha

Member

F-Hole

Well-known member

Garincha

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sws1

Well-known member

Patek

Active member