• Guys, we've spent considerable money converting the Les Paul Forum to this new XenForo platform, and we have ongoing monthly operating expenses. THE "DONATIONS" TAB IS NOW WORKING, AND WE WOULD APPRECIATE ANY DONATIONS YOU CAN MAKE TO KEEP THE LES PAUL FORUM GOING! Thank you!

Any way to date ABR-1 between early 60s and late 50s?

S

Slowhands

New member
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Messages
8
Hi. recently I got hold of an ABR-1 unused in original box. It's nickel plated, wireless, "GIBSON ABR-!" logo with foundry mark, and has nickel plated brass saddles. The screws are unbevelled, the saddles themselves are pristine (it's unused) with a fairly sharp top (only a very narrow flat strip at peak) and the string slots are very shallow as one would expect for unused item. Scanning prior threads, all of this combined seems to date it to around 1960 or prior but is there any way to narrow it further? Is there anything that distinguishes a late 50s item from a 1960 one? Probably not but I'm curious.

For what it's worth, this bridge came with the original rosewood base too (the thumbscrews are mounted to it) so it was suitable for an archtop, not sure if it would have been sold that way for use on a solid body guitar (i.e. if it can be adapted easily). It would obviously fit an exiting installation but I'm not sure the thumscrew posts can be mounted on a solid body or not. Don't want to take it apart to find out! So just a little curious about that too.
Thanks!
 

Attachments

  • Markings.jpg
    Markings.jpg
    35.6 KB · Views: 29
  • No Wire and Metal Saddles.jpg
    No Wire and Metal Saddles.jpg
    9.8 KB · Views: 27
  • Total Contents.jpg
    Total Contents.jpg
    41.8 KB · Views: 25
S

Slowhands

New member
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Messages
8
Better pictures. I removed the masking tape holding the saddles in place and got a better look. The saddles aren't as smooth as I'd thought initially but still at best only gently used for a short period.

01-Top-Down-View.jpg


02-Front-View.jpg


03-Back-View.jpg


04-Screws-and-Saddles-Closeup.jpg


Markings.jpg
 
S

Slowhands

New member
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Messages
8
Well, I guess there isn't a way.

For anyone who cares, here's an interesting comparison a guy did of a modern ABR-1 to a 1950s one. Same Les Paul, no other changes, just the bridge. Surprising differences in the tones he gets between the two, it's not that subtle to me, very noticeable.

 
V

VamboRool

Active member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
424
The retaining wire for the saddles wasn't used until 1961. Does someone know the exact month that they started showing up?
 
S

Slowhands

New member
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Messages
8
VamboRool said:
The retaining wire for the saddles wasn't used until 1961. Does someone know the exact month that they started showing up?
Click to expand...

I've been trying to find little things that set one year apart from another. This site in Japanese (Thanks google translate!) has some interesting side by side comparisons of the screws and saddles. One one of his other articles he shows like 200 ABR-1s all neatly lined up, so he must have the world's biggest collection. In particular he looks at 1959 vs 1960 and there is a pretty apparent change to both the screw heads and the saddle grind marks on the flat vertical surface. The screw heads are dead flat heads in 1959, in 1960 they start acquiring a a small bevel around the edge. It gets more beveled in later years. The pattern if lines on the saddle flat surface (I guess from a ginder?) are much looser in 1959, in 1960 they are tighter together and more of them. It's fascinating how tiny differences can help date an item from that long ago. For what it's worth, mine looks more like his example taken off a 1959 Les Paul to me, but they might have just grabbed the screws and saddles from a bin sometime in 1960 so it isn't definitive by any stretch.

Here's the page with the screw / saddle comparisons. If you use Chrome it ought to offer to translate it when you load it. If you use some other browser you might have to use google translate directly. Or learn Japanese, whatever's easiest.

https://vintagemaniacs.com/abr-1-saddle-screw/

Here's the page where he shows his million ABR-1s

https://vintagemaniacs.com/gibson-abr-1/
 
sws1

sws1

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Messages
2,848
Slowhands said:
I've been trying to find little things that set one year apart from another. This site in Japanese (Thanks google translate!) has some interesting side by side comparisons of the screws and saddles. One one of his other articles he shows like 200 ABR-1s all neatly lined up, so he must have the world's biggest collection. In particular he looks at 1959 vs 1960 and there is a pretty apparent change to both the screw heads and the saddle grind marks on the flat vertical surface. The screw heads are dead flat heads in 1959, in 1960 they start acquiring a a small bevel around the edge. It gets more beveled in later years. The pattern if lines on the saddle flat surface (I guess from a ginder?) are much looser in 1959, in 1960 they are tighter together and more of them. It's fascinating how tiny differences can help date an item from that long ago. For what it's worth, mine looks more like his example taken off a 1959 Les Paul to me, but they might have just grabbed the screws and saddles from a bin sometime in 1960 so it isn't definitive by any stretch.

Here's the page with the screw / saddle comparisons. If you use Chrome it ought to offer to translate it when you load it. If you use some other browser you might have to use google translate directly. Or learn Japanese, whatever's easiest.

https://vintagemaniacs.com/abr-1-saddle-screw/

Here's the page where he shows his million ABR-1s

https://vintagemaniacs.com/gibson-abr-1/
Click to expand...

Having stared at alot of ABRs in photos, there seems to be alot of inconsistency in the shapes, which I chalked up to deterioration in the molds or different techniques. Case in point (and you can see this in one of the photos in the link above), the shape of the ends is sometime flat all the way to the end of the ABR, and in other cases, it gets skinnier, at different rates.
 
S

Slowhands

New member
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Messages
8
sws1 said:
Having stared at alot of ABRs in photos, there seems to be alot of inconsistency in the shapes, which I chalked up to deterioration in the molds or different techniques. Case in point (and you can see this in one of the photos in the link above), the shape of the ends is sometime flat all the way to the end of the ABR, and in other cases, it gets skinnier, at different rates.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to the curvature, how it seems some of them have semicircular rounded end while some others have a more oval round end (i.e. the flat part starts rounding off sooner?) If so, I've noticed that as well. I don't see an obvious pattern though (such as the earlier ones are always the more circular) but some of the examples shown do seem to indicate that the 1959 one is more of that semicircular and and the later ones get more ovular. But that could be lighting or something else that just makes it look that way.

Mine looks more like it has the semicircular end to me. But I don't have another vintage one to compare it to. If that was in fact a "tell" than it should be something that could help identify the year better, loosely speaking. Of course the lack of wire is a lot more "it can't be later than 1960, case closed" bit of evicence than subtle nuances in curvature but we're now talking about swirls on tiny saddle parts and screw bevels so why not throw that into the mix too?
 
V

VamboRool

Active member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
424
Double checked the Duchossoir book (Gibson Electrics, The Classic Years), so I'll revise my input to late 1962. Again, does anyone know the exact month?
 
sws1

sws1

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Messages
2,848
Slowhands said:
Are you referring to the curvature, how it seems some of them have semicircular rounded end while some others have a more oval round end (i.e. the flat part starts rounding off sooner?) If so, I've noticed that as well.
Click to expand...

Yes - that's what I meant.
 
Tom Wittrock

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
VamboRool said:
Double checked the Duchossoir book (Gibson Electrics, The Classic Years), so I'll revise my input to late 1962. Again, does anyone know the exact month?
Click to expand...

I don't think it is possible to know that, unless internal Gibson documents are available [which I am sure they are not].
 
S

Slowhands

New member
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Messages
8
Tom Wittrock said:
I don't think it is possible to know that, unless internal Gibson documents are available [which I am sure they are not].
Click to expand...
I am far from an expert but from what I understand of Gibson's operation in the early 60s they didn't have an instantaneous cutoff of parts and materials use. They would switch to something new but use the old stuff until it was used up. So you have examples of guitars with some "new" features mixed with some "old" parts as they worked through the parts bin stock. There certainly was a specific month when the new style parts were received, we'll probably never know that. But as to when they were the only ones being used I don't think even their records would show.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top