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Lower output PAFs

Differentstrings

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Joined
Jul 21, 2015
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24
So I have a question for everyone, I know that original PAFs varied greatly in output. Lately I have been hearing and reading that some think lower output pickups sounds sweeter and were one of the reasons for the sweet harmonic tone of pickups of that era. I have heard some refer to some vintage Les Paul’s as sounding like a bigger fatter telecaster. What is everybody’s opinion on lower output pickups vs higher? Which are more true to original PAFs?
 

DutchRay

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Mar 15, 2015
Messages
872
Mine measure 7.48 (neck) and 7.66 (bridge), pretty low output and they sound really sweet, especially in my '55>'57 conversion much better than the T-tops it came with when I got it. Both pickups in my CC18 measure 7,83 and that guitar sounds great as well. I used to own a R9 with burstbuckers that measured 8,20 and up and they didn't last long, the topend was constantly annoying me and I fixed it with a set of good pots and a pair of low output Amber '58 PAF's.

gellingburst05.jpg


Oh, the other guitar is Eelco Gelling's 1960 burst :)
 

duaneflowers

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Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
2,522
I find lower output PAFs much more unforgiving. Les Paul himself liked lower output pickups better due to their chiminess and clarity and since he had perfect pitch and never made a mistake he didn't need to worry so much about that unforgiving nature. Michael Bloomfield's and Duane Allman's 'Layla" PAFs were also relatively low impedance... attesting to their prowess as players (its much ballsier to play low wind PAFs cleanly). OTOH higher output PAFs (like early Jimmy Page, Bernie's Beast and Duane's 'Hot Lanta' PAFs) have some built-in girthiness/gain that can make mediocre players sound better without cranking the amp to distortion. When I play lower winds I need to be more on my game as each note seems to be highlighted and emphasized (which is one thing that distinguishes them from other humbuckers) meaning that the 'good' notes are allowed to soar above the others equally as well as the 'clunkers'. When I'm playing a higher wound set I can relax a bit as individual notes are blurred a bit more which ends to cover up the majority of the clunkers. Clumsier/sloppier players would be better off (and no doubt more comfortable) with high wound PAFs and would end up sounding better.

Original PAFs ran the full spectrum and players tended to gravitate towards those that fit their playing ability/style. Some original PAFs were matched (high or output output in the bridge and the same in the neck) while others were mixed. To my ears Beano is an example of a mixed set... low output in the neck and high output in the bridge. Shanks had higher output in the neck and lower output in the bridge. Some were almost identical while others differed to varying degrees. And, of course, as with everything musical, its all completely subjective.
 

lare65

Active member
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Feb 18, 2017
Messages
110
My zebras that are in my -60 Es335 reads 7.9 bridge and 8.3 neck. I have lower readings paf-clones in other guitars that are stronger in output so the magnet has to be a big part of the "more like a singlecoil" thing the vintage paf´s are acting like.
 

brandtkronholm

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Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
2,737
So I have a question for everyone, I know that original PAFs varied greatly in output.

Yes they did.

Lately I have been hearing and reading that some think lower output pickups sounds sweeter...

No. "Sweetness" depends on the amp, player, strings, technique, frets, the stuff between the guitar and amp (if anything at all), the room, the speaker cabinet... Then, if you're listening to a recording of what might be a PAF, then "sweetness" depends on all the previously mentioned stuff AND the microphone recording the sound, the mic placement, the studio magic, the personal play back system (i.e. headphones or the speakers in a laptop?) and our natural bias.

Also, the only way to really hear what an electric guitar sounds like is to actually play it with a band. Try finding room for your sound if your drummer has ten billion china cymbals and the Hammond organ insists on using all ten fingers all the time every time. My sympathies if there's a horn section! (On that note, listen to Squib Cakes by Tower of Power. That's a 1957 PAF Gold Top through a silverface Twin Reverb. I would not describe that as "sweet" tone - but it is nonetheless an excellent and great tone! I'd say it's a "sweet" player.)

...and were one of the reasons for the sweet harmonic tone of pickups of that era.

No. Hot or cool PAFs (and the players) are equally responsible for that "sweet harmonic tone."

I have heard some refer to some vintage Les Paul’s as sounding like a bigger fatter telecaster.

No. I get it, but no. Telecasters are great guitars (that I cannot play despite my efforts) but only Les Pauls really have that "Les Paul sound."

What is everybody’s opinion on lower output pickups vs higher? Which are more true to original PAFs?

My opinion: I have no idea what the ohm reading on the PAFs in my 1959 ES345 is. It sounds sweet. I have a 1995 R9 modified with a short magnet PAF in the neck and and a long magnet (double white) PAF in the bridge that reads 8.3. (I dropped it in within the past two years...I should really post a new picture!) I had a short magnet PAF in the bridge but I wasn't happy with it. I suspect that it had a typical lower ohm/output reading. The double white sounds much, much sweeter to my ears although it almost certainly has a higher/hotter reading.

But that's not an opinion. My opinion is this: It's all in the hands.

...And, of course, as with everything musical, its all completely subjective.
 

brandtkronholm

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Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
2,737
...Also, the only way to really hear what an electric guitar sounds like is to actually play it with a band. Try finding room for your sound if your drummer has ten billion china cymbals and the Hammond organ insists on using all ten fingers all the time every time. My sympathies if there's a horn section! (On that note, listen to Squib Cakes by Tower of Power. That's a 1957 PAF Gold Top through a silverface Twin Reverb. I would not describe that as "sweet" tone - but it is nonetheless an excellent and great tone! I'd say it's a "sweet" player.)

Squib Cakes:

My opinion is this: It's all in the hands.
 

blewsbreaker

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Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Messages
1,113
I find lower output PAFs much more unforgiving. Les Paul himself liked lower output pickups better due to their chiminess and clarity and since he had perfect pitch and never made a mistake he didn't need to worry so much about that unforgiving nature. Michael Bloomfield's and Duane Allman's 'Layla" PAFs were also relatively low impedance... attesting to their prowess as players (its much ballsier to play low wind PAFs cleanly). OTOH higher output PAFs (like early Jimmy Page, Bernie's Beast and Duane's 'Hot Lanta' PAFs) have some built-in girthiness/gain that can make mediocre players sound better without cranking the amp to distortion. When I play lower winds I need to be more on my game as each note seems to be highlighted and emphasized (which is one thing that distinguishes them from other humbuckers) meaning that the 'good' notes are allowed to soar above the others equally as well as the 'clunkers'. When I'm playing a higher wound set I can relax a bit as individual notes are blurred a bit more which ends to cover up the majority of the clunkers. Clumsier/sloppier players would be better off (and no doubt more comfortable) with high wound PAFs and would end up sounding better.

Original PAFs ran the full spectrum and players tended to gravitate towards those that fit their playing ability/style. Some original PAFs were matched (high or output output in the bridge and the same in the neck) while others were mixed. To my ears Beano is an example of a mixed set... low output in the neck and high output in the bridge. Shanks had higher output in the neck and lower output in the bridge. Some were almost identical while others differed to varying degrees. And, of course, as with everything musical, its all completely subjective.

Mr. Flowers,
Wow, great analogy....I couldn't agree more. My 57' is 6.9k neck, 7.5k bridge and it cuts like a mofo in a band situation.
Any flub comes through as clear as day....Oops!
 

DANELECTRO

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Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
6,318
My experience with real PAFs is limited to only two sets; one set in a 1960 Custom, and the other set in a 1961 SG Standard. As I recall, the PAFs in the Custom measure around 8K, and the SG pups are both around 7.5K. Of course the guitars are two completely different animals, but the Custom sounds as good as any Les Paul I’ve played (I wouldn’t say better, because I have a 2007 Chambered Reissue Les Paul with Wizz pups that sounds identical in A-B tests), but to my ears,the SG just sounds okay. I assume that it’s pups have short magnets, although I’ve never had the covers off to check.
 

Ed A

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Joined
Jul 16, 2001
Messages
4,679
Bottom line is it’s personal preference. Through the years I’ve had a couple of dozen real PAF‘s and my two favorites that I settled on were late 50s long magnet double blacks that read 8.0 neck and 8.5 bridge. Last year I got on the low wind kick and I tried a 7.3 in the neck. I really did dig it for a while, maybe a touch more clarity and zing. But ultimately I went back to my setup of 8 and 8.5K and just because they are hotter these PAF‘s are by no means thick and muddy. The neck pickup is still very hollow and clear but has a bit more of that throaty mid that I like. And the 8.5 bridge while being plenty bright just has great harmonics and mid honk. By the way these two PAF‘s sound different in every guitar. I’ve had them in probably a dozen or more Les Pauls that have come and gone through the years. There’s no magic number it all depends on how the PAF’s work in the particular guitar you own and what your ears are telling you.
 

mdubya

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Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
1,020
Consider that the volume knob always lets you lower the output of any pickup. :hmm

Some of my favorite tones come from having the amp driven hard, maybe even boosted by a pedal, and with the guitar volume very low, maybe 2 or 3 on the volume knob.

The magnet most likely influences the "drive" of the pickup as much or more than the resistance measured in Ohms. But what do I know?
 
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