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is this finishing schedule sane?

magicGrailLog

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Jan 6, 2019
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16
Just got a Les Paul kit from precisionguitarkits.com and want to finish it. It's a standard style (mahogany back with carved flamey maple top) and want it to end up looking like an Iced Tea burst. I cheaped out and didn't get the edges bound, so I wanted to try the poor man's natural binding like PRS does. I have some questions and a finishing schedule below that I was hoping to get feedback on. I've read so much about finishing (forums, Jewitt/Erlewine books, etc) that my eyes are ready to pop out. I'm a newbie to finishing, so I apologize if this posting is a little long. Here goes:


Questions:

  1. Will the finish be more hard & clear like glass using nitrocellulose lacquer instead of vinyl sealer to seal after transtint dying the maple top & grain filling? I’ve read vinyl is softer than lacquer & hard to sand down.
  2. Do I need to worry about the wet sanding affecting the hide glued neck joint, or should I just use naphtha instead of water? Should I vinyl seal, superglue, tape, or do something else to the hide glue before wet sanding?
  3. Should I worry about stearates from sandpaper causing fisheye in the nitrocellulose lacquer, or just wet sand 100% of the time? I’ve read (from a blog so I’m not sure how much to trust it) that stearated sandpaper only affects water-based lacquer, but since I’m using nitrocellulose maybe I have nothing to worry about? I bought some Mirka Abranet, but am wondering if I should use something like 3M’s Gold 216u Fre-Cut.
  4. What kind of ink to use for stamping serial number on back of headstock? I don’t want the ink to dissolve in my clear nitro lacquer coat on top of it.

Finishing schedule:

  1. Prep (sand 220 with grain, brush/vacuum dust, tape over hide glue joint, solvent wipe-down, etc)
  2. Two thin coats of vinyl seal (with 33% thinner) 20 minutes apart on binding, neck, bottom, & inside tuner holes, Dry, Sand 320 with grain, Brush/vacuum sawdust
  3. Neck & bottom - Grain fill (fill is oil-based - reduce to mayonnaise consistency with naphtha if needed) - Burlap/Scotchbrite at 45 degrees to grain, Dry 1 week, Sand 280 with grain, Brush/vacuum sawdust
  4. Two thin coats of vinyl seal (with 33% thinner) 20 minutes apart on binding, neck, back of headstock, & bottom (not the top & not headstock veneer) - (only wet sand dust/bugs/runs/sags)
  5. Top
    1. Spray brown dye (dyes are water based), wait 2 mins, wipe with damp rag, dry, wet sand 320 with grain, spritz naphtha to check
    2. Spray brown dye, wait 2 mins, wipe with damp rag, dry, wet sand 320 with grain, spritz naphtha to check
    3. Spray orange/vintage amber dye, spritz naphtha to check
    4. Spray red/orange/brown (orange and mahogany red) dye burst pattern, spritz naphtha to check
    5. Wet sand 320 wood furs with grain, Brush/vacuum sawdust
    6. Spray 2 coats of clear nitrocellulose lacquer (with 60% thinner & 5-10% retarder) 1 hour apart (only wet sand dust/bugs/runs/sags)
  6. Headstock
    1. Veneer: Wet sand 320, Wipe black dye (denatured alcohol), Spray 2 coats of black lacquer (with 60% thinner & 5-10% retarder) 1 hour apart, Dry, (only wet sand dust/bugs/runs/sags)
    2. Apply decal on front, Stamp S/N on back
  7. Scrape/wet sand any colors from binding
  8. Spray 4 coats of clear nitrocellulose lacquer (with 40% thinner & 10% retarder) 1 hour apart on 1st day, Dry overnight, Spray 4 coats 1 hour apart on 2nd day - do everything except nut, fretboard, etc. (only wet sand dust/bugs/runs/sags)
  9. Flash coat?
  10. Buff - Dry for 4 weeks then buff
    1. Soak sandpaper for 1 hr (in naptha? or water?)
    2. Wet sand 600-800, Wipe with naphtha
    3. Wet sand 1000-1400, Wipe with naphtha
    4. Wet sand 2000, Wipe with naphtha
    5. Wait 7-10 days
    6. Buff... Wipe with naphtha
Thanks!
 

Wilko

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Mar 11, 2002
Messages
20,871
That is very specific list, specially considering that it reads like something put together by someone who's never done this type of work.

I would avoid doing most of what you seem to want to do.

Wet-sanding bare wood? no. You wet it with water to raise the grain. Let it dry, then sand it smooth. Vinyl sealer? why?

Dyeing the wood is very different than coloring lacquer and spraying. Lots of choices that just seem random.

read some books, watch some videos.

Good luck.:salude
 

jrgtr42

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
2,311
Agreed with Wilco - I think you're overthinking this.
I built a bass a ways back, and while I didn't need to grainfill (basswood and maple body) the rest of the process should be similar.
I used the Stew-Mac rattle cans for stain and lacquer.
Sand body to 220
spray stain. allow to dry for couple days.
first couple coats of sanding sealer were very light. 4 sprays of this: spray, allow dry 4 or so hours depending on weather, spray second coat. Allow this to dry for a day or so, then repeat. Sand this down - this is building a level coat
Spray lacquee, allow dry a few hours, then second coat. Let this dry for a couple days, then sand again with 220 (again, I think...)
repeat until coat is thick enough. I think I did 10 or so coats, 2 at a time, sanding lightly in between each 2, and wiping with a tack cloth afterwards.
once desired thickness, wet sand with increasing grit, then finally buff down. Allow finish to dry for about a week before starting the sanding procedure, then another week or so before assembly.
I used a few resources in determining how I'd proceed. Stewart McDonald's site has some great how-tos, including finishing.
Erlewine & McRostie Guitar Finishing Step-by-Step
Melvin Hiscock's Make Your Own Electric Guitar.
It's not a quick or easy procedure. There are faster ways to get a finish, poly finshes from the guitar supply places, down to a couple coats of Krylon (not recommended.) but the longer you take, and more care you take, the better the finish and the better the guitar will look.


Speaking of which, I've been considering a kit or 2 from Precision - what to you think of them, have you had any issues or anything with it?
 

magicGrailLog

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Jan 6, 2019
Messages
16
The Precision guitar kits are great. I got a Les Paul Junior double cut from Precision too, along with my flame maple Les Paul. Good neck fit & good wood selection. I'm still working through my practice pieces of wood, so I've not yet started finishing the guitars.

HELP HELP HELP ...I ran into a dilemma with my pore filler wherein the filler in the pores is still light grey colored, even after 2 clear vinyl coats & 3 clear lacquer coats, & drying 1 day before each coat. I colored my pore filler with minwax oil-based dark brown stain before applying it. I'm using the Cardinal mahogany oil based pore filler. I also let the filler dry a week before applying a 2nd coat of filler, then dried it for another week, then sanded it down & air blew it & lightly wiped it with naphtha. Before I started the vinyl seal I sprayed it with naphtha & all the pores we're a nice dark brown, but after the naphtha flashed off a second later, the pores turned light gray again. I'll attach a pic later.
 

magicGrailLog

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Jan 6, 2019
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I'm wondering if maybe I didn't fill the pores enough & that putting more clear coats will cause more of the pores to fill in & darken? Also, I only shoot lacquer when humidity is below 50%. After I sanded down the filler initially before shooting lacquer, I brushed it down (clean brand new natural bristle brush) then blew high pressure air over it then lightly wiped with naphtha. I also never sanded the lacquer or anything after that.
 

RandK

Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2004
Messages
121
\\rant_on ALWAYS TEST FINISH WORK ON PIECES OF THE SAME TYPES OF WOOD OR BETTER YET OFF-CUTS FROM THAT GUITAR \\rant_off

Are you doing a traditional cherry back ? I think you'll find once the cherry toner is on there you won't see the gray. I used Timbermate walnut filler on some guitars and it dries dark grey but once the cherry toner is on it looks fine. It does not look as good as the McFadden's oil based walnut but that isn't available anymore. You need to use pigment to color oil based pore filler. LMI sells UTC tint bases, which I've also seen at a good art store. Dyes color (stain) bare wood or color clear lacquer to produce colored films. Pore filler is mostly silica (sand) and won't absorb color from dye. If you insist on a natural back you'll have to sand it all off and use walnut filler or natural filler colored with a dark UTC tint. I'm not sure how well UTC in the mahogany filler would work, blending the browns, but might be OK. Would need testing.
 

magicGrailLog

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Jan 6, 2019
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Still trying to figure out how to show you a pic. By the way, I colored my pore filler with minwax oil-based dark brown stain before applying it. Also, I only shoot lacquer when humidity is below 50%. After I sanded down the filler initially before shooting lacquer, I brushed it down (clean brand new natural bristle brush) then blew high pressure air over it then lightly wiped with naphtha. I also never sanded the lacquer or anything after that. I was eyeballing other grain fillers. Anyone used Timbermate, StewMac's ColorTone Water based wood filler, Aquacoat, zPoxy, Abatron WoodEpox, or Famowood filler?
 

magicGrailLog

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Jan 6, 2019
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Will zpoxy dissolve into itself ? In other words, after a 1st coat of it cures, can the 2nd coat be applied & melt into any zpoxy powder left on surface after sanding/vacuuming the 1st coat? I'm assuming it doesn't, & that my vacuuming of the 1st coat will need to be NASA/laser/extremely perfect, or else the pores will be cloudy from the powder I missed, right? I'm gonna use clear zpoxy on my Les Paul build & red/brown transtinted zpoxy on my LP Junior TV build.
 
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