1989 Pre-Historic?? Help

jpierson · Dec 22, 2018

Hello,

I've been trying to research this guitar I recently purchased from Reverb and the seller advertised it as a 2000 Les Paul. I pulled pots cover off and found a pot number of R1378907 which makes me think this is from 1989. I pulled the pickups out and found Pat# "U.S. Patent 2,737,842" stamped into the back of the pickups but no printed date stamps. It has a metal input jack and what's interesting is it has a Les Paul signature on the back with what looks like it was signed to the Ash Family on their 72nd year in business on his 81st birthday which gives me a date of the signature of 1996. The serial number is also very interesting because it's an ink stamp on the head stock 9 0001. I haven't been able to find any info from the online databases for serial numbers that jive. Any ideas on what this is? My guess is that this might be to a custom built one off or the first of the CMT Sam Ash run of Les Pauls but can't come up with any details. Below are some pictures of the guitar.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YwXC5Fj7WZSMTN4J7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UZjvEB7BG6LLjr5SA

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4yAfeJ8T3quVDdSq9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UD2CoHVa9aZzpSJe7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ahCQWAxtrXYKG53s9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/K8uRBUrT6q5kfrja8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/EQcAycixkvRfA7Gn9

Thank you for your help,
Jeremiah

brandtkronholm · Dec 22, 2018

My guess: It's a 1989 "pre-historic." The case is newer. I think your detective work is very good. It may be possible to find documentation confirming your research.

It looks like a fine guitar! :salude

MeHereNow · Dec 22, 2018

Sure looks like a Sam ash, in fact, this would be the first of 300 according to the serial number.
Does the stamp in the neck pup cavity say "SA"?
Case is late 90's and not original to the guitar.

jpierson · Dec 22, 2018

MeHereNow said:
Sure looks like a Sam ash, in fact, this would be the first of 300 according to the serial number.
Does the stamp in the neck pup cavity say "SA"?
Case is late 90's and not original to the guitar.

No it only has VSB ink stamp in the neck pickup cavity and nothing in the bridge pickup cavity.

My only reservation about saying this is a first of the Sam Ash run is those started in 1986 and these pots seem to be from 1989. The Sam Ash run was from 86-89 from what I researched.

59shredandburn · Dec 23, 2018

I thought I saw S A in the cavity (first pic) it seems the A didn't have the line in it it looked like S and an upside down V ?

jpierson · Dec 23, 2018

I sent an email to the Sam Ash headquarters to see if they can validate any of my research. I also posted on the Gibson forum for identification help. In the back of my mind I have a feeling this might be a stolen guitar. I checked all the registries for stolen guitars and didn't find this specific guitar but who knows. Maybe my research pans out and I have a legitimate first pre-historic signed by Les Paul.

Strings Jr. · Dec 23, 2018

59shredandburn said:
I thought I saw S A in the cavity (first pic) it seems the A didn't have the line in it it looked like S and an upside down V ?

Yes, that's the VSB stamp. You can't see the B in the pic because of the glare.

When the stamp was made, the guitar was hanging upside down on a conveyor line with an eye hook in the lower end pin hole.

Ed Driscoll · Dec 23, 2018

What does "VSB" stand for? :hmm

Strings Jr. · Dec 23, 2018

Ed Driscoll said:
What does "VSB" stand for? :hmm

Vintage SunBurst

Ed Driscoll · Dec 23, 2018

Strings Jr. said:
Vintage SunBurst

Thanks -- as soon as I hit enter on my post, I realized that's what it likely was, and almost amended my post. But isn't the thread starter's Les Paul more of a darker, tobacco burst sort of color?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4yAfeJ8T3quVDdSq9

Strings Jr. · Dec 24, 2018

jpierson · Dec 25, 2018

brandtkronholm said:
My guess: It's a 1989 "pre-historic." The case is newer. I think your detective work is very good. It may be possible to find documentation confirming your research.

It looks like a fine guitar! :salude

I spent the weekend trading emails with Sammy Ash and he confirmed the guitar as being one of the limited runs they did between 86-89. This was the first one built in 1989 based on the serial number and remembers this guitar and getting it signed by Les Paul back in 1996.

He doesn't remember the circumstance as to why it left the family but said if I was ever interested in selling it he would be a buyer. That puts me in a dilemma, the signature of Les Paul likely doesn't add any value to the guitar because it's addressed the Ash family. However, from everything I've read these guitars were really nice guitars and finding another 29 year old guitar like this would highly unlikely. What to do.....

GibsonGuy · Dec 26, 2018

This is a 1989 Les Paul Standard CMT in vintage sunburst (model LPSMVSCH1), but not a pre-historic model or Les Paul Reissue which was also available in 1989. Records do indicate that it was shipped to the Sam Ash HQ on 5/9/1989. Hope this helps.

jpierson · Dec 27, 2018

GibsonGuy said:
This is a 1989 Les Paul Standard CMT in vintage sunburst (model LPSMVSCH1), but not a pre-historic model or Les Paul Reissue which was also available in 1989. Records do indicate that it was shipped to the Sam Ash HQ on 5/9/1989. Hope this helps.

Wow GibsonGuy, that's amazing detail, how did you get such detail? I read that Sam Ash handpicked the woods for these guitars and worked a deal with their sales rep for a low cost but when HQ at Gibson found out about the deal they increased the dealer cost of the guitar by a few hundred dollars. The serial number format on this guitar is what lead me to ask the question if it was a pre-historic. Rumor has it that in it was in 89 when Gibson found out about the deal and increased the cost so Sam Ash halted the line of guitars. I wonder how many of these guitars were made in 89.

thank you

GibsonGuy · Dec 28, 2018

jpierson said:
Wow GibsonGuy, that's amazing detail, how did you get such detail? I read that Sam Ash handpicked the woods for these guitars and worked a deal with their sales rep for a low cost but when HQ at Gibson found out about the deal they increased the dealer cost of the guitar by a few hundred dollars. The serial number format on this guitar is what lead me to ask the question if it was a pre-historic. Rumor has it that in it was in 89 when Gibson found out about the deal and increased the cost so Sam Ash halted the line of guitars. I wonder how many of these guitars were made in 89.

thank you

I asked my magic mirror...it's pretty reliable. I don't think that I'd believe that rumor, the pricing never changed for the VS finish. Actual production number are n/a, but less than 100 like yours were shipped, all in 1989 and all went to Sam Ash locations. There was also a heritage cherry sunburst version of the same model but with uncovered zebra coil pickups, model LPSMHSCH1, this version was more expensive than the vintage sunburst version, perhaps this is where the price increase rumor stems from. The heritage cherry sunburst model also have the same style serial# (9 xxxx) and were made alongside the vintage sunburst run in 1989 (for example, out of the lowest serial numbers, serial #s 9 0001-9 0005 were VS and 9 0007-9 0010 were HS). After mid-1989 no more of the VS version were shipped, but the HS version carried on as a Sam Ash exclusive model, eventually switching over to an 8 digit standard serial number configuration late in the year.

warthog · Feb 24, 2019

jpierson said:
Wow GibsonGuy, that's amazing detail, how did you get such detail? I read that Sam Ash handpicked the woods for these guitars and worked a deal with their sales rep for a low cost but when HQ at Gibson found out about the deal they increased the dealer cost of the guitar by a few hundred dollars. The serial number format on this guitar is what lead me to ask the question if it was a pre-historic. Rumor has it that in it was in 89 when Gibson found out about the deal and increased the cost so Sam Ash halted the line of guitars. I wonder how many of these guitars were made in 89.

thank you

Hello fellow Sam Ash CMT LP owner! I got mine in 1990 from Sam Ash in NYC. I've had it ever since. I contacted Sam Ash and I also spoke with Sammy Ash. He told me everything you said about the sales rep and Gibson finding out about it, so I am pretty sure it's true. The total run was 300 guitars. They were all with light non weight relieved single piece bodies. I had my pickups re-potted and found out they are the zebras.

Killer guitar

Here is mine

https://photos.app.goo.gl/MU3foyVQ4ArfD5bJ8

SS901771 · Feb 24, 2019

I had a 1990 pre-historic that looked very similar to yours, the finish was identical. Serial 0 0065, it had the slim taper neck and brown Gibson USA case. I don't have any good pics of it or a way to post them. I traded it even up for a 1972 Super Lead. It was a nice guitar. Hope this small bit of info is helpful.

Etosser · Feb 25, 2019

Here’s Pre-Historic 0 0066...one away from SS90’s. It’s an old phone pic, so sorry for the lack of detail.

SS901771 · Feb 28, 2019

Etosser, I remember you and your guitar. I may still have a pic of yours somewhere on my computer. Both very similar finishes to Jpierson's guitar.

Toolman · Nov 22, 2020

GibsonGuy said:
I asked my magic mirror...it's pretty reliable. I don't think that I'd believe that rumor, the pricing never changed for the VS finish. Actual production number are n/a, but less than 100 like yours were shipped, all in 1989 and all went to Sam Ash locations. There was also a heritage cherry sunburst version of the same model but with uncovered zebra coil pickups, model LPSMHSCH1, this version was more expensive than the vintage sunburst version, perhaps this is where the price increase rumor stems from. The heritage cherry sunburst model also have the same style serial# (9 xxxx) and were made alongside the vintage sunburst run in 1989 (for example, out of the lowest serial numbers, serial #s 9 0001-9 0005 were VS and 9 0007-9 0010 were HS). After mid-1989 no more of the VS version were shipped, but the HS version carried on as a Sam Ash exclusive model, eventually switching over to an 8 digit standard serial number configuration late in the year.

Hi Gibson Guy, thanks for this info. I recently bought what I believe to be a 1989 CMT Standard. Curious where you got the info about the serial #'s changing to the 8 digit later on in 1989? This is the case for mine and have been curious.

1989 Pre-Historic?? Help

New member

Well-known member

Member

New member

Member

New member

Well-known member

Les Paul Forum Member

Well-known member

Les Paul Forum Member

Well-known member

New member

Member

New member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

New member