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  1. #41
    Les Paul Forum Member StSpider's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by MeHereNow View Post
    [SIZE=2]
    But he converted it into the guitar that it originally supposed to be/what gibson first intended it to be.
    I don't want to beat a dead horse, but this is simply false. If anything, Gibson meant for this to be a Custom. That's why they sold it as such.
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  2. #42
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Excellent work, I think it looks great!
    A smile relieves a heart that grieves.

  3. #43
    Les Paul Forum Member ourmaninthenorth's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by pinefd View Post
    If this were the case...and this may have been what you meant...they would have had to lift the Standard off the line as a body only, before the neck was attached (this would be my guess as to what happened). Since the binding channel for a Custom is different than that of a Standard, then routing for the binding would have taken place before a neck was attached. And when they did attach the neck, it received a Custom neck, which would be different than a Standard.


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  4. #44
    Les Paul Forum Member MeHereNow's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by StSpider View Post
    I don't want to beat a dead horse, but this is simply false. If anything, Gibson meant for this to be a Custom. That's why they sold it as such.
    You killed the proverbial horse in my opinion by posting this:

    "Frankly, I'm appalled that someone can take something cool unique and of historic value and destroy it like this. So sad and distasteful. Besides, this will never be a real burst and you know it. You talk about chew marks? Really? We obsess about these things because they offer cool insights of the manufacturing process that happened in the Gibson factory back in the day. This guitar was another testimony of it, and now it's not. It's just a fake.

    This is no "restoration" at all, if anything, it's the exact opposite of it. "

    But that's your opinion offcourse, and i respect that.

    "False"?

    Can you explain why did this custom have a "standard burst" body then with all the unique features belonging to a "standard burst"?
    Love to hear your explanation..

    Get my money, buy my medicine...

  5. #45
    Les Paul Forum Member J.D.'s Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    I don't know the history and am genuinely curious. How was it authenticated as a 1960 body?

  6. #46
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner Tom Wittrock's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Driscoll View Post
    Tom, in your estimation, how many maple-capped LPCs were built in the 1950s?
    None that I know of.
    Is this supposed to be one? And with a maple top but finished black originally? Why would they do that?
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  7. #47
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner Tom Wittrock's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by ourmaninthenorth View Post
    No Tom, but I can point you in the right direction to the Department of Sarcasm....
    Sarcasm? Please add a smilie so we know what you mean.


    Quote Originally Posted by ourmaninthenorth View Post
    The Standard was in the toilet in 1960, Gibson had a Custom order to fill, not rocket science...
    But Customs lasted into 1961. Every 1961 LP Custom [black, archtop] I have seen had an all mahogany body.
    Grabbing a Standard at that time makes little sense.
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  8. #48
    Les Paul Forum Member ourmaninthenorth's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by ourmaninthenorth View Post
    Best guess...

    An order for a Custom that Gibson lifted a Standard off the line to complete.

    Lets face it, contextually the Standard in 1960 was coming to the end of it's life...I think it's a reasonable scenario. I doubt this would have been a big deal and simply Gibson filling an order with what they had to hand.

    It can of course join the plethora of Maple capped Customs from the 50's....that is of course if anyone knows of one...

    Serial number(s) ?

    Anyone?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wittrock View Post
    Sarcasm? Please add a smilie so we know what you mean.


    But Customs lasted into 1961. Every 1961 LP Custom [black, archtop] I have seen had an all mahogany body.
    Grabbing a Standard at that time makes little sense.

    I think quoting or highlighting my post in full lessens the perceived ambiguity of meaning. I'm sardonically refuting the claim that a 50's Custom has bit the dust at the hands of this restoration. And asking if anyone knows of a single example of a 50's Maple capped Custom: in other words I share your assertion that there aren't any that I've seen.



    To your second point -


    I think it's impossible to pin this down, hence my use of the words "best guess".

    However that is exactly what we have, a Standard body, finished as a Custom. It may be an indicator of the waning value that the Standards had to Gibson at the time, when one specific model body became a donor for a distinctly different model that still had some sales legs left.

    Who knows...
    Shakespeare walks into a pub, the Landlord says "get out, you're Bard"

  9. #49
    Les Paul Forum Member J.D.'s Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wittrock
    But Customs lasted into 1961. Every 1961 LP Custom [black, archtop] I have seen had an all mahogany body. Grabbing a Standard at that time makes little sense.
    That is exactly what I was thinking, hence my question.

  10. #50
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    I think the world lost probably the only original maple topped Custom which is a shame. Who knows, maybe Gibson was thinking of giving the Custom a maple top and did a prototype and that's why it has the switch wiring rout of a Standard. Would there be anyone still alive that could say yea or nay to this? Is the shipping ledger for this serial number available? What does it say? IMHO, the guitar left the factory as a Custom, look at the top body binding that was under the fingerboard that had to be put on before the Custom neck with ebony fingerboard and large headstock was installed. If the re-fin had been done in cherry red or cherry sunburst and it remained a Custom, it would have shown off the maple top and still have been a guitar that Gibson actually produced albeit in very limited quantities.

    Amazing woodworking skills none the less.

  11. #51
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    When the guitar was acquired and prior to the conversion work, the incorrect neck specs with the 1 9/16" nut width begged for a fix IMO. I can't even play a guitar with a skinny '60s nut width of 1 9/16".

    So if I were going to keep the guitar, something would have to be done about the quirky neck. Instead of doing all the extensive neck work with added shims, inserts, veneers, wings, tall binding, etc., I think I would prefer a nice clean reneck with old mahogany and Brazilian rosewood. Nothin' wrong with the work done to the body IMO.

    At the end of the day, the OPs guitar conversion project was a worthy endeavor that resulted in a killer vintage guitar, with PAFs and other vintage parts, and overall, of the player grade.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

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  12. #52
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner Tom Wittrock's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by ourmaninthenorth View Post
    I think quoting or highlighting my post in full lessens the perceived ambiguity of meaning. I'm sardonically refuting the claim that a 50's Custom has bit the dust at the hands of this restoration. And asking if anyone knows of a single example of a 50's Maple capped Custom: in other words I share your assertion that there aren't any that I've seen.



    To your second point -


    I think it's impossible to pin this down, hence my use of the words "best guess".

    However that is exactly what we have, a Standard body, finished as a Custom. It may be an indicator of the waning value that the Standards had to Gibson at the time, when one specific model body became a donor for a distinctly different model that still had some sales legs left.

    Who knows...
    Okay, I [finally] understand.



    So, could this be a Standard converted to a Custom? And now restored?
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  13. #53
    Les Paul Forum Member J.D.'s Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Why couldn't this be a '68+ LPC body?

  14. #54
    Les Paul Forum Member deytookerjaabs's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    On the day it left the factory and was stamped with a serial number....that's what it was/is.


    Just because it appears to be a one-off you don't get to use mental gymnastics of an owner concocted theory to re-define "original." Obviously the folks who assembled it were aware of using a standard body and for whatever reason sent it out the door that way. You don't know the reason..and you full well know what it originally was.



    So, I vote nay on "restoration," that's a conversion. Not that I'm for or against what was done, I don't really have an emotional connection here.

    Or, I'll go restore every '59 EB-2 by routing/plugging/reneck into a '59 ES-335, right? I mean, it was just silly they used those magical 335 bodies to build those darned basses, let's restore'em!

  15. #55
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
    On the day it left the factory and was stamped with a serial number....that's what it was/is.


    Just because it appears to be a one-off you don't get to use mental gymnastics of an owner concocted theory to re-define "original." Obviously the folks who assembled it were aware of using a standard body and for whatever reason sent it out the door that way. You don't know the reason..and you full well know what it originally was.



    So, I vote nay on "restoration," that's a conversion. Not that I'm for or against what was done, I don't really have an emotional connection here.

    Or, I'll go restore every '59 EB-2 by routing/plugging/reneck into a '59 ES-335, right? I mean, it was just silly they used those magical 335 bodies to build those darned basses, let's restore'em!
    I had the same idea, but converting all those pimped out ES-355s and turn them into dot neck ES-335s.

  16. #56

    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    I thought it was awesome as it was, but so much had already happened to it prior to this conversion that I suppose it just really doesn’t matter.

    Custard is perfect.

  17. #57
    Les Paul Forum Member StSpider's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by MeHereNow View Post
    You killed the proverbial horse in my opinion by posting this:

    "Frankly, I'm appalled that someone can take something cool unique and of historic value and destroy it like this. So sad and distasteful. Besides, this will never be a real burst and you know it. You talk about chew marks? Really? We obsess about these things because they offer cool insights of the manufacturing process that happened in the Gibson factory back in the day. This guitar was another testimony of it, and now it's not. It's just a fake.

    This is no "restoration" at all, if anything, it's the exact opposite of it. "

    But that's your opinion offcourse, and i respect that.

    "False"?

    Can you explain why did this custom have a "standard burst" body then with all the unique features belonging to a "standard burst"?
    Love to hear your explanation..

    Of course I cannot explain exactly how this guitar came to be, what was the reasoning behind it and such. But all the unique features belong to a custom. The clor of a custom, the binding of a custom, the pickup configuration, neck and tuners of a custom. This was sold as a custom. We even have a photo of the pot cavity and you can see the black color there despite the guitar having already been refinished at that point. That sais to me that I was originally black and sold as a custom.

    You may not like my tone in the first post I wrote but that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that this guitar was not a standard, but a fairly unique custom.
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  18. #58
    Les Paul Forum Member StSpider's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    BTW I just came up with a reasonable explanation for the guitar ending up as a custom. If you look at the pictures when the guitar was finished in lemon or stripped I see way too many mineral streaks for gibson's aesthetic standards at the time. As cool as they are, we all have heard that Gibson would use only the most pristine and "perfect" looking pieces of maple for see-through finishes.

    This one looks kind of borderline, because the big streak on the bottom near the controls can easily be hidden or minimized by the burst pattern, but there are several other minor streaks on the left side.

    Maybe someone though the top looked good enough (and in fact it is extremely pretty IMO), but someone else decided that it wasn't "perfect" enough and ordered it to be covered in black and finished as a Custom.
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  19. #59
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    You previous wrote this...."Keeping with the neck for now: another challenge was the fact it had been shaved and narrowed in the past, with a near 1 9/16” late ‘60s nut width, and very slim feel, which was unacceptable to me, and there was no way I was going to reneck when all the wood was intact, so I employed a method I’ve used in several other restos where I inlaid a ~2mm quarter sawn tapered mahogany fillet under the fretboard which adds both width and depth, and brought the neck right into chunky ‘59 territory:"

    Help me understand how you were able to get the width of the neck at the nut back to the normal 1 11/16"? I just don't see how a ~2mm quarter sawn tapered mahogany fillet under the fretboard can add width to the neck once it's been shaved down to 1 9/16". Once the neck is shaved down how do you get that wood back with a fillet?

    Thanks.
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  20. #60
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner Tom Wittrock's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
    On the day it left the factory and was stamped with a serial number....that's what it was/is.
    And many of us would like to know what it was when it left the factory, and when it left the factory.
    That serial number is a non-original stamp, so it is nothing to rely on.
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  21. #61
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    This conversion shows great craftsmanship.

  22. #62
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by StSpider View Post
    BTW I just came up with a reasonable explanation for the guitar ending up as a custom. If you look at the pictures when the guitar was finished in lemon or stripped I see way too many mineral streaks for gibson's aesthetic standards at the time. As cool as they are, we all have heard that Gibson would use only the most pristine and "perfect" looking pieces of maple for see-through finishes.

    This one looks kind of borderline, because the big streak on the bottom near the controls can easily be hidden or minimized by the burst pattern, but there are several other minor streaks on the left side.

    Maybe someone though the top looked good enough (and in fact it is extremely pretty IMO), but someone else decided that it wasn't "perfect" enough and ordered it to be covered in black and finished as a Custom.
    Gibson could just as easily paint the top black, or cherry, or gold, if the maple was not acceptable for sunburst.
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  23. #63
    Les Paul Forum Member ourmaninthenorth's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    There are innumerable examples of mineral streaked tops from this era, the evidence doesn't support the "perfect top only" urban myth.

    Examples?

    Have a quick flick through one of my favourite sites -


    http://www.burstserial.com/site/

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  24. #64
    Forum Moderator T.Allen's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration


  25. #65
    Les Paul Forum Member deytookerjaabs's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wittrock View Post
    And many of us would like to know what it was when it left the factory, and when it left the factory.
    That serial number is a non-original stamp, so it is nothing to rely on.



    I'm just taking the story at face value *positive thoughts, positive thoughts, positive thoughts* my shrink insists, yeah, there's still a mystery there.
    Last edited by deytookerjaabs; 11-20-18 at 01:52 PM.

  26. #66
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumping@Shadows View Post
    Hi all, the LPF has always been receptive to vintage Les Paul restoration threads, and as this guitar came from our very own LPF member ‘Stoker’, and has been discussed before, I thought some would be interested in the full process.
    I really enjoyed following this on instagram. Thanks for sharing your work with everyone, even though it comes with some negative feedback.

  27. #67
    Les Paul Forum Member EpiLP1985's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Flat-Foot View Post
    I really enjoyed following this on instagram. Thanks for sharing your work with everyone, even though it comes with some negative feedback.
    PGV is one of the main reasons I still use Instagram. Between him, Greg Koch, and JB, I get a kick out of that platform in particular.
    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle

  28. #68
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by EpiLP1985 View Post
    PGV is one of the main reasons I still use Instagram. Between him, Greg Koch, and JB, I get a kick out of that platform in particular.
    It's the only social media platform I can stomach. There is way more good stuff than bad on there.

  29. #69
    Les Paul Forum Member StSpider's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by ourmaninthenorth View Post
    There are innumerable examples of mineral streaked tops from this era, the evidence doesn't support the "perfect top only" urban myth.

    Examples?

    Have a quick flick through one of my favourite sites -


    http://www.burstserial.com/site/

    Yeah I'm familiar with burstserial. I hardly see bursts with streaks as prominent as this guitar. As I said, I think it' kind of borderline, looks great, but IMO atypical for a vintage burst.
    As for finishing this guitar in anything other than black, Goldtop would have been an option but I guess there was no custom order issued for one (AFAIK all goldtops after 58 were custom orders).
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  30. #70
    Les Paul Forum Member MeHereNow's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by StSpider View Post
    Yeah I'm familiar with burstserial. I hardly see bursts with streaks as prominent as this guitar. As I said, I think it' kind of borderline, looks great, but IMO atypical for a vintage burst.
    As for finishing this guitar in anything other than black, Goldtop would have been an option but I guess there was no custom order issued for one (AFAIK all goldtops after 58 were custom orders).
    Strange..

    iI could find numerous "prominent" dark mineral streaked bursts in the first 2 pages of Burstserial's "Burstfaces" section.
    Not at the edges, but right in plain sight on the top.
    And that's only from the first 2 pages of the 1959 collection.
    Some examples:










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  31. #71
    Les Paul Forum Member latestarter's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wittrock View Post
    And many of us would like to know what it was when it left the factory, and when it left the factory.
    That serial number is a non-original stamp, so it is nothing to rely on.
    Agree with the unknowns, but the binding sure looks like it left the factory as a Custom.

    Otherwise known as Grant.

  32. #72
    Les Paul Forum Member AA00475Bassman's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    If I've learned anything on this Forum never say never when it comes to Gibson !
    Ive never confused owning a bunch of high end gear with being some kind of a guitar player I'm a hack and I love guitars !

    The myth :The most disturbing thing about buying a fake Les Paul is how my research after the purchase is received by Forum members ??? 2020

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    The Myth: If I would have lived with MOM & mooched till I was 48 I would play like Clapton !
    Think about it
    won't you ...... Please !

  33. #73
    Les Paul Forum Member toxpert's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Any such thing as an “employee guitar” during this time period?
    Mix and match to personal preference...

  34. #74
    Les Paul Forum Member J.D.'s Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    I'm still not seeing anything here that would confidently identify this as a 1960 body. I'd genuinely like to understand how it was determined to be a 1960 body and not a later body.

  35. #75
    Les Paul Forum Member deytookerjaabs's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by toxpert View Post
    Any such thing as an “employee guitar” during this time period?
    Mix and match to personal preference...

    Guys built stuff, for sure. Usually you'd get a unique marking/stamp versus a serial if it was something special which was different from an employee getting an authorized/warrantied model that would have a serial. An employee "original" meant they had to buy the materials on their own dime and it wasn't really a Gibson per se. The company doesn't want you to put their name on some crazy idea you built for yourself.

    From my limited recollection the one-off employee stuff is rarely something as subtle as a hidden capped body. I'd say, the possibility of someone ordering a maple capped custom intentionally back then is pretty low simply because that's an era when most dudes didn't have a clue what wood their electric guitar was made of! Usually custom order stuff was pretty blatant like a unique color, or CC pickups, or special engravings etc for a professional in the biz.


    Who knows though, someone could have told the white wood guys "let's try this" then they just finished it like normal to meet quota without the dealer even knowing. ??? (that is, if it is a '60)

  36. #76
    Les Paul Forum Member StSpider's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by MeHereNow View Post
    Strange..

    iI could find numerous "prominent" dark mineral streaked bursts in the first 2 pages of Burstserial's "Burstfaces" section.
    Not at the edges, but right in plain sight on the top.
    And that's only from the first 2 pages of the 1959 collection.
    Some examples:










    First of all, keep in mind that streaks can get darker over time. Second, these are not as prominent as the one we're discussing, or as dark in person as they look to be in the photos: the streaks are as dark as the outer edge of the burst, and the photo is taken to emphasize the contrast / flame as much as possible, which will make the streak appear darker. Number 3 is an exception but I thing that guitar had some infiltration going on and I'm pretty sure it did not leave the factory like that.
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  37. #77
    Les Paul Forum Member latestarter's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    I had overlooked the fact this had had the neck resized somewhere along the way...which in my view opens the door further for modification. Good solution with the fillet too. And +1 for calling it a fillet.
    Otherwise known as Grant.

  38. #78
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    This is a most curious guitar that has me interested to find out the real story ? I seen the photos from the link that were provided above when it was a lemon like burst with 3 pickups( which I liked it in the lemon burst and I liked the figure as well ) and I did see the mineral streaks which to me were nothing to get kicked out of bed for as I have seen this before and it is not an issue in my eyes. As TW I believe mentioned that the serial # does not look original it makes me wonder what it is and once was. I am most confused as I believed at first that it has to be a 68 and forward Custom but then seeing the grain of the maple top and the 3 pickups is a head scratcher for sure . This is a clear example of the mystique and aura and charm of all things GIBSON for me ! The only thing that bugs me about this guitar is the neck issue .

  39. #79

    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    great craftsmanship but I liked the guitar much better as it came from the factory, now it's just another fake burst

  40. #80
    Les Paul Forum Member EpiLP1985's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnold M. View Post
    great craftsmanship but I liked the guitar much better as it came from the factory, now it's just another fake burst
    I think the better term here would be "faithful recreation". Historics fall in this category, especially when they are sent to HM (who do wonderful work). There is an entire market looking to seek out that very specific kind of guitar. You never see someone lambasted for getting thier R8, R9, etc. modded by HM.

    This is just my $0.02 (take it with a grain as I am not a Burst owner, vintage owner, etc.) but the guitar was not in it's original condition when J@S got it. Remember the color? That was not the original finish. I would have wanted to convert it as well as the orange'y color it had was not aesthetically pleasing. Could he have blacked it out again and restored it to it's "as-left" factory condition? Of course, but AFAIK from the development of the story and the progress of the conversion from J@S's Instagram account, he had selected this as a personal instrument.

    The wonderful thing here is that there is a crossover between what you do professionally and for your hobby. I've seen countless instruments flow through J@S's Instagram feed for other people. Some restorations, some conversions, etc. Yet this was one he picked out as his own and he did what he wanted to and he did what he thought would make it the guitar he wanted.

    You can argue about the merits and the technical details, but there is no disputing this fact: It's his guitar and he did a damn fine job reaching the desired end goal.
    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle

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