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PAF Alternatives?

duaneflowers

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Aug 13, 2013
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2,522
You should not keep saying that. Pafs all have low DCR. Go measure the DCR of any throbak or Seymour Duncan paf. Go measure any 50s Gibson paf. You will find they have low DCR. Not 99 out of a hundred but a hundred out of a hundred will have low DCR.
Nobody is going to buy a paf that measures 10ko.

You obviously know absolutely nothing about PAFs...
 

Big Al

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Apr 24, 2002
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14,537
You should not keep saying that. Pafs all have low DCR. Go measure the DCR of any throbak or Seymour Duncan paf. Go measure any 50s Gibson paf. You will find they have low DCR. Not 99 out of a hundred but a hundred out of a hundred will have low DCR.
Nobody is going to buy a paf that measures 10ko.

And still, after countless false, misleading and made up factoids you have spewed out as true have been proven figments of your misunderstanding, .... you do it again.

If you could comprehend what you read, (which may be why you are so often wrong), you'd know I stated two main facts. Resistence readings are measured on inactive pickups. That is one not engaged by a vibrating string, an inert object that is producing nothing, has no current or voltage output. All you are doing is measuring the resistance, which is not a function of output.

Pickups don't put out ohms. Frequency is not measured by ohms load resistance readings of inactive dynamc circuitry. Hertz to be wrong so often, but it is a self inflicted pain. So resistance is not an output measurement of power or tone.

I never gave a range of readings. I stated that you could have 12 pickups with the same resistance measurement and have 12 different sounding pickups with variable apparent power. WTF! does a 10k reading come from? Who has a 10k paf?

I owned a great pair of 1957 paf's that barely made 7k ohms. I've had 9k+ ones too. Fact is paf's have a much wider range of measurement than any modern makers single model. Just fixin upon the resistant reading as a way to predict tone and output alone is a fools conceit, like acting like you know something or have any real experience when you don't.

Over and over and over again.
 

Zentar

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Oct 1, 2011
Messages
830
DCR is one of the most important specs of a paf. Big Al you could get a job at CNN. They'd love you.
 

Triburst

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Feb 12, 2006
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4,353
Very interesting stuff in posts above!

To add my 2 cents: Almost all the top pickup winders acknowledge there isn't one magic formula for PAF's. So nearly all sell different "flavors" of PAF's (some, so many that it gets confusing).

It's already been suggested that you contact your favorite winder and tell them what you're looking for - the tone you're chasing (and possibly what your guitar sounds like right now, plugged and unplugged). In my opinion, that's the best advice you can get.
 

Big Al

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Apr 24, 2002
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DCR is one of the most important specs of a paf. Big Al you could get a job at CNN. They'd love you.

Could you explain. DCR by itself is a static measurement. Every major paf replica/clone builder offers variations that fall within the same DCR measurement yet offer distinctly different tone and voice. Gibson offers 57 Classics, Burstbucker and Classicbuckers all credible paf alternatives, all distinctly different sounding and all with some overlapping DCR spec.

You cannot measure the DCR of a 1950's paf and then use that as a benchmark to find a duplicate sounding pickup. Say it was 8k. You could assemble a sizeable collection of paf alternates with 8k DCR readings and all would sound different and none might match the original.

You ignore magnet gauss, composition, size and surface, wire and the variety of winding patterns/coil shape, coil offsets, (you can have two matched 4k coils, and a staggering combination of offset coil options like underwound or overwound slug or screw coils like a 3k screw coil with a 5k slug coil for example, with a total 8k DCR), baseplate and cover and as has been proven, baseplate coil attachment screws!

You make these claims and never qualify them when pressed. To get close to what the op wants, a decent paf alternative under $200, DCR won't help.
 

deytookerjaabs

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Nov 6, 2016
Messages
1,592
Hey, where's the guy who pimps those magic $600+ brand that "smokes all the rest" yet you can't find a single bit of real information about the pickups?
 
Joined
Apr 26, 2018
Messages
93
Andy Brauer, guitar tech for too many guitar greats to name, has recently become enamored with Wizz Pickups... and for good reason, they are simply the best PAF clones I have had the pleasure to play and I recommend them wholeheartedly.

Here's a shot (and quote) of Al Di Meola enjoying his new Wizzes:

45687363_905537502969926_2955403988930920448_n.jpg

“When I tried Wizz pickups, it made me want to play electric guitar again” - Al Di Meola

After taking a look at Wizz pickups I have definitely put them on my list of contenders! People seem to be pretty unanimous about how good they are and how close they sound to PAFs. I have found a few sets on reverb that are in my budget, so that's a plus!
 
Joined
Apr 26, 2018
Messages
93
After reading some more info on other forms/websites and also hearing what some of you have said, I think I am going to go for a set of pickups which closely matches the readings of the 59 I played. I completely agree with Big Al and others that a proper set up and also the specific characteristics of each guitar (including weight and construction) are important factors to the guitars sound However, I don't think purchasing pickups with a similar reading would be a bad thing... do you?
 

PixelBurst

Active member
Joined
Apr 11, 2002
Messages
4,094
For tone and accuracy I like Wizz and Throbak. Seymour Duncan Antiquities, Wolfetone Dr Vintage and Legends are great lower priced PAFs.
 

duaneflowers

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Aug 13, 2013
Messages
2,522
After taking a look at Wizz pickups I have definitely put them on my list of contenders! People seem to be pretty unanimous about how good they are and how close they sound to PAFs. I have found a few sets on reverb that are in my budget, so that's a plus!

Tom Bartlett has recently jumped on the Wizz bandwagon as well... so you're in good company! :salude
 

duaneflowers

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Aug 13, 2013
Messages
2,522
Could you explain. DCR by itself is a static measurement. Every major paf replica/clone builder offers variations that fall within the same DCR measurement yet offer distinctly different tone and voice. Gibson offers 57 Classics, Burstbucker and Classicbuckers all credible paf alternatives, all distinctly different sounding and all with some overlapping DCR spec.

You cannot measure the DCR of a 1950's paf and then use that as a benchmark to find a duplicate sounding pickup. Say it was 8k. You could assemble a sizeable collection of paf alternates with 8k DCR readings and all would sound different and none might match the original.

You ignore magnet gauss, composition, size and surface, wire and the variety of winding patterns/coil shape, coil offsets, (you can have two matched 4k coils, and a staggering combination of offset coil options like underwound or overwound slug or screw coils like a 3k screw coil with a 5k slug coil for example, with a total 8k DCR), baseplate and cover and as has been proven, baseplate coil attachment screws!

You make these claims and never qualify them when pressed. To get close to what the op wants, a decent paf alternative under $200, DCR won't help.

OK, I'll bite. For me, the DC reading is the #1 most important spec there is. But I'm in a different boat than most... allow me to explain.

With very few exceptions I pretty much only acquire Wizz pickups nowadays. They ring truest to original PAFs to my ear (especially those made with vintage wire and/or vintage mags). For the 20+ sets of Wizzes I have, the wind pattern is perfect to my ear and that pattern remains consistent every time Alex winds a set of pickups. This is the exact same wind pattern BK used in his OTPG pups which to my ear were the absolute best. The wire, spacers, baseplates, magnets, polepieces, etc. are all exactly the same (or as close as humanly possible) in every Wizz set as well, so the only thing changing is the DC (mags change, but those can easily be swapped out). In seeking to clone the pups on my favorite bursts the only variable Alex has to worry about when winding is the DC. The Jimmy Page Set has an 8.9 in the neck while the Duane Allman Layla Set has a 6.9 in the neck. All else being equal, and acknowledging that 99% of those original tones were in the fingers, if I want to get my Skydog on, the 6.9 running through my Allman rig gets me much closer than the 8.9 running through the same rig. The Beano set, with a 7.8 is closer to the 'standard' and when played side by side these three neck pups are unique and each have different capabilities... all based primarily on that DC reading.

Psychological and subjective? Perhaps, but isn't everything? :salude
 

jwalker

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Dec 10, 2004
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2,592
For the 20+ sets of Wizzes I have, the wind pattern is perfect to my ear and that pattern remains consistent every time Alex winds a set of pickups. This is the exact same wind pattern BK used in his OTPG pups which to my ear were the absolute best.

Bharat (BK/OTPG) makes great pickups but they are completely unique to him as he hand guides the wire. Nobody but him can lay claim to what he does. Much respect for Bharat from me. He has been very helpful to me over the years and he has even given me advice on violin making as he is an expert violin maker. I just make violins as a hobby, but Bharat is the Pros Pro when it comes to pickups, guitar, violins...
 

duaneflowers

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Aug 13, 2013
Messages
2,522
Bharat (BK/OTPG) makes great pickups but they are completely unique to him as he hand guides the wire. Nobody but him can lay claim to what he does. Much respect for Bharat from me. He has been very helpful to me over the years and he has even given me advice on violin making as he is an expert violin maker. I just make violins as a hobby, but Bharat is the Pros Pro when it comes to pickups, guitar, violins...


Surprisingly, I have to agree 100%... it's too bad his pickup winding days are behind him...

... or are they??? :teeth
 

marshall1987

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Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
My favorite set of PAF repro's is a pair of Jim Rolph '59 Pretenders. Jim nails the vintager PAF hum bucking pickup. His pickups are not wax-potted. Jim is a little guarded about the specifications and materials for his pickups, but I believe the materials are all sourced in the USA.

And the /59 Pretenders were less than $200 per pickup when I bought them several years ago.
 

brandtkronholm

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Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
2,737
After reading some more info on other forms/websites and also hearing what some of you have said, I think I am going to go for a set of pickups which closely matches the readings of the 59 I played. I completely agree with Big Al and others that a proper set up and also the specific characteristics of each guitar (including weight and construction) are important factors to the guitars sound However, I don't think purchasing pickups with a similar reading would be a bad thing... do you?

This seems as good a place to start as any place! Let us know what the readings are from the guitar you played and what you get to put in your own guitar.

Be warned, thus begins a journey of 10,000 pickups, different wiring schemes, pots, knobs, amps, caps, pedals, strings, cords, more amps, different speakers, a guitar show, new tubes, pick thickness, another guitar or two...and a multitude of posts here discussing the finer points (pointlessly) of all of it! What fun! :dude:
 

Billy Porter

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Joined
Mar 16, 2005
Messages
1,129
SD Seth Lovers are PAF clones using the same non-waxed wire and wound on the original Gibson winders - check their website.

I've a pair in my semi and they sound great especially at gigging volumes. Great clarity for messing around with jazz as well


I believe there's a lot of other factors (woods / fretting / pots/ amp/ the room) that affect the overall tone. The resistance of the pickup is a guide to output, not tone but Big Al knows more about this than I'll ever learn


It's your money to spend on what you want but there is also diminishing returns against money spent.
 

folgers_is_evil

New member
Joined
Nov 17, 2018
Messages
13
my 2 cents piece of advice:
First try to find the sweet spot on your current pick-up. In some case it might work and save you 400 bucks.

If you don't find the tone you're after, consider replacement pick-ups but be aware that every builder gives you his version based on what they've got in their hands (or not).
They is not one PAF version there are many because first of, production in the 50's was not as standardized as today, second, all of them are 60 years old pick-ups now and not all of them have had the same treatment during their life. And it counts a lot I think. Magnet might be slightly degaussed, sweat has probably leaked under the cover by capillarity and oxidized metal parts, PU and PU's pole height might have been twicked as well...
Not to mention the acoustic characteristic of the guitar they are mounted in, independently from the pick-up measurable characteristics...

Each version will have different output, frequency spectrum, some will have more bloom or sound more compressed etc... and yet they have to be set-up properly. What you ear in demos of course depends on the amp, the guitar and how it is set-up.

Important conclusion: a set that sounds awesome in a given guitar my be disappointing in your guitar...

Considering your budget, I think you cannot go out and by every set from the market and test them so...

However, you'll find some good comparison using same guitar and same amp, with same settings. That's a good start. Trust your ears and make sure the marketing messages don't cloud your judgement! (that is from an expert in marketing :rolleyes)

May the tone be with you!

Phil
 
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