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PAF Alternatives?

duaneflowers

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75380355_412207279718419_7464891440938614784_n.jpg
 
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duaneflowers

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I'm curious... How the hell is jimmy's neck pickup so clear and strat-like (NO COIL TAPS) at that high of an output? And I can't find anything about a Wizz Jimmy Page set even existing... I'd love to know what the bridge reading is. I've been chasing the mid-70's middle position quack for too damn long

The prototypes for pre- and post-72 Wizz Jimmy Page pups should be arriving at my house in a day or two... they will most likely go into production shortly after I've had a chance to install them and put them through their paces. Barring any last minute changes the bridge reading on the Pre72 set should be 8.9kΩ and the bridge reading on the Post72 set should be 7.9kΩ (poly wire has a different dynamic). If you're looking at Jimmy's mid-70s tone there were quite a few changes from day to day and the possible configurations were seemingly endless but I'd imagine his unique quack has something to do with the PE/POLY combination (which is also found in Greeny). :salude
 

KDunn99

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Sep 17, 2018
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I'll be waiting for some videos of both of those sets. :dude:
So it looks like for Pre-72 get two plain enamel 8.9k's and for Post-72 get a plain enamel 8.9k in the neck and a poly wire 7.9k in the bridge.
What magnets are they?

Also, I tried switching my neck (7.5k A5) and bridge (8.3k A5) pickups (Both PE Wire) around to mimic the paf/t-top combo but all i got was a muddier neck and an icepicky bridge. I believe the middle quacked better than ever but I flipped them back around real fast cause i was having a hard time balancing them for volume
 
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duaneflowers

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So it looks like for Pre-72 get two plain enamel 8.9k's and for Post-72 get a plain enamel 8.9k in the neck and a poly wire 7.9k in the bridge.
What magnets are they?

The necks are both 8.2kΩ PE... atm we are trying several different mags and combos of varying strength...
 

PixelBurst

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For me it’s Wizz and Throbak. I’ve played several guitars with real PAFs and I don’t feel like I’m missing anything.
 

brandtkronholm

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Dec 3, 2006
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2,737
I'm curious... How the hell is jimmy's neck pickup so clear and strat-like (NO COIL TAPS) at that high of an output? And I can't find anything about a Wizz Jimmy Page set even existing... I'd love to know what the bridge reading is. I've been chasing the mid-70's middle position quack for too damn long

I think it’s the amp, (big loud clean Marshall) dialed in somewhat on the trebly side of things, super thin slinky strings and Jimmy’s use of the guitar’s tone and volume controls more so than anything special about the neck pickup. (But, regardless of the year or Zepp tour (‘69-‘80), the neck pickup of his #1 LP is consistently sweet sounding!)

So, yeah, maybe 15% magic neck pickup and 20% amp and then 105% Jimmy Page...I guess the chase continues for us all...!
 

deytookerjaabs

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Nov 6, 2016
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This is a post from Terry McInturff on TGP regarding Page:

When I had the fun opportunity to play Jimmy Page's 1999 tour guitars (Black Crowes tour) in order to acquaint myself prior to building him a guitar, I did notice a couple of things that gave me a little insight into his sound (and this has nothing to do with "sloppy").


The guitars included the two iconic "Led Zeppelin" old Les Pauls, and I paid more attention to these since they were the main guitars.


The frets were wide and very low; the strings (9-42) were set down very low as well. In addition, he uses a very thin pick (can't recall the brand but his tech begged me to find more as they were no longer available) that wasn't celluloid, rather nylon and white semi-translucent.


When the guitars were played with a regular Fender tortoise shell pick, the strings would rather easily buzz at every fret. However when played with Jimmy's choice of pick, that sort of "scribby" response happened. Hammer ons/pull offs were a breeze, and overall it became easier for me to understand how the guitars responded to the pick attack.


The guitars weren't setup in a way that would be ideal for a very legato, sustainy style ala Carlos Santana, but it was ideal for the more staccato approach that we know and love from JP.


I don't think the pickups in his guitar, the neck and both bridges, really ever stood out to me. The neck sounds bright, articulate, balanced in line with the more common "PAF" sound IMO. I mean, the first thing the youtubers need to do to cop his tone is stop playing with too much damn overdrive/distortion, lol.
 

musekatcher

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Apr 15, 2018
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my 2 cents piece of advice:
First try to find the sweet spot on your current pick-up. In some case it might work and save you 400 bucks.

Correct - you need to at least know how to find the sweet spot before switching pickups - even if you hate the best that set can provide. Otherwise, you'll spend money on some pickups, and likely be disappointed when you can't get their glory tone.

And Folgers is very evil ;)
 

duaneflowers

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JP definitely practiced/practices 'the lost art of tone control' and after ofc getting his pups dialed in and the bass on his amps set to virtually zero he could go from clear to raunchy with a flick of the wrist... being able to split the coils in both pups also allowed for that chimey neck when needed even with an overly hot neck pup... and, ofc, he's Jimmy... so there's that... :hee
 

au_rick

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Mar 18, 2010
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"99% of those original tones were in the fingers"

If the above were true, why do so many people spend so much time, effort, and money chasing pickups instead of simply practising their technique ?

Tone is 100% hardware, the rest is nuance, feeling, and emotion
 

Big Al

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Apr 24, 2002
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14,537


Tone is 100% hardware, the rest is nuance, feeling, and emotion

You got it over under sideways down, mate. Last time I saw Richard Betts with the Allmans, he used a 50's Mary Kaye Strat all night and sounded like the Dicky Betts we all love so much. I've seen Johnny Winter with a Glazer, Leslie West with a bunch of notagibsonjr mongrels, Ronnie Montrose with a Tele, Joe Bonamassa with a menangery of guitars and many more. Guitarist I followed for decades and I can identify their tone from a few notes.

Different guitars, amps everything, still sound the same. I have a tone. I also have a large collection of guitars, amps, fx and stuff to sound different, yet everyone tells me they can tell it's my tone.

The gear supplies the nuance, my decades of playing, ability to use emotion and feeling through my touch has the single greatest effect on tone. Hendrix used a Flying V and Fender and Sunn amps, yet very few, very, very few can tell the difference. Purple haze was a flipped over Tele!

Yes educated ears, with careful listening hear and discern the nuance and fine details that gear may present, despite the overpowering influence of touch and technique upon tone. BUT, big but here and one that gets lost all to often, ....
gear don't make the music, gear don't make the musician, gear enables a musician to make music.

In this age of digital wonders, where a mere mouse click, keystroke or button pushed can supply an exact, flawless clone of your favorite guitar tonemeister is common simply cannot happen if you don't have the chops!

How many times have you seen a "Hero in a Box" effect demo'd by a competent guitarist with a fluid command of the Hero's technique, just nail the desired tone, EXACT!!!!
OMG! great an easy way to get that tone. Then you see all the following youtube vids. Deluded hacks with no real knowledge or facility in the Hero's technique at all. They may be good players in other styles, most seem to be this generic shredder zippity doodley do da crapola that bears no relationship to the targeted style or they just suck. Crappy ass wanabes that really should not be making video's, they should be studying. But, they graphically demonstrate that unless you have Jimi chops you wont get Jimi tone plugging into a Jimi box.
It ain't the gear, it's the player.
 

KDunn99

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Sep 17, 2018
Messages
27
JP definitely practiced/practices 'the lost art of tone control' and after ofc getting his pups dialed in and the bass on his amps set to virtually zero he could go from clear to raunchy with a flick of the wrist... being able to split the coils in both pups also allowed for that chimey neck when needed even with an overly hot neck pup... and, ofc, he's Jimmy... so there's that... :hee

Jimmy didnt have any push/pulls or pickguard buttons on any of his guitars until The Firm. He was somehow getting that almost single coil clarity out of a very hot PAF, which according to Tim Mills at BareKnuckle who got to examine Jimmy's Number One, read 8.97k. My neck pickup is an A5 7.5k and i still cant get the clarity he has...
 
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brandtkronholm

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Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
2,737
"99% of those original tones were in the fingers"

If the above were true, why do so many people spend so much time, effort, and money chasing pickups instead of simply practising their technique ?

Tone is 100% hardware, the rest is nuance, feeling, and emotion

So many people spend so much time, effort and money chasing pickups instead of "simply" practicing their technique because it is easier to be a follower than to be a leader. "Simply" is the wrong word. It takes a huge amount of time and effort to find your unique and defining sound. Moreover, your unique sound depends on the group you're playing with. How do those boutique pickups sound with a snare drum and vocals?

Also, this info about Jimmy Page's neck pickup and the way his guitar was set-up is really interesting stuff!
 

RocknRollShakeUp

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Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
766
You got it over under sideways down, mate. Last time I saw Richard Betts with the Allmans, he used a 50's Mary Kaye Strat all night and sounded like the Dicky Betts we all love so much. I've seen Johnny Winter with a Glazer, Leslie West with a bunch of notagibsonjr mongrels, Ronnie Montrose with a Tele, Joe Bonamassa with a menangery of guitars and many more. Guitarist I followed for decades and I can identify their tone from a few notes.

Different guitars, amps everything, still sound the same. I have a tone. I also have a large collection of guitars, amps, fx and stuff to sound different, yet everyone tells me they can tell it's my tone.

The gear supplies the nuance, my decades of playing, ability to use emotion and feeling through my touch has the single greatest effect on tone. Hendrix used a Flying V and Fender and Sunn amps, yet very few, very, very few can tell the difference. Purple haze was a flipped over Tele!

Yes educated ears, with careful listening hear and discern the nuance and fine details that gear may present, despite the overpowering influence of touch and technique upon tone. BUT, big but here and one that gets lost all to often, ....
gear don't make the music, gear don't make the musician, gear enables a musician to make music.

In this age of digital wonders, where a mere mouse click, keystroke or button pushed can supply an exact, flawless clone of your favorite guitar tonemeister is common simply cannot happen if you don't have the chops!

How many times have you seen a "Hero in a Box" effect demo'd by a competent guitarist with a fluid command of the Hero's technique, just nail the desired tone, EXACT!!!!
OMG! great an easy way to get that tone. Then you see all the following youtube vids. Deluded hacks with no real knowledge or facility in the Hero's technique at all. They may be good players in other styles, most seem to be this generic shredder zippity doodley do da crapola that bears no relationship to the targeted style or they just suck. Crappy ass wanabes that really should not be making video's, they should be studying. But, they graphically demonstrate that unless you have Jimi chops you wont get Jimi tone plugging into a Jimi box.
It ain't the gear, it's the player.

Mic drop...
 

metropolis

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Sep 14, 2018
Messages
390
Just to add another brand I haven't seen mentioned is Lollar pickups. I just bought an older standard with Lollar Imperials fitted (supposedly the hotter 'high wind' ones) and they're very nice. The original pots are in which are 300k so it's not quite got the top end of my main Standard with Montys, and I suspect that's taming some of the extra gain too but they are a nice US made set. My guitar repair guy (Ronnie Wood's guitar tech) stocks them and raves about them.
 

RocknRollShakeUp

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Messages
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Jimmy didnt have any push/pulls or pickguard buttons on any of his guitars until The Firm. He was somehow getting that almost single coil clarity out of a very hot PAF, which according to Tim Mills at BareKnuckle who got to examine Jimmy's Number One, read 8.97k. My neck pickup is an A5 7.5k and i still cant get the clarity he has...

I’m guessing that he rolled the volume/tone down no?

With that 50s style wiring the bridge pickup tames dramatically as you roll it down past 9 and less , without losing highs. Not to mention the thinning effect of the fullness/fatness of the tone of the pickup that is obtained as the tone knob is rolled off toward half way, again with no muffling effect.

With my R7 I get the most clarity and single coil like tone with the volume on 5-8 and tone at 5-7, also depending on how much I’m cranking the amps.

That’s my surmise anyway.
 

KDunn99

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Sep 17, 2018
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I dont buy into Jimmy using his tone knobs mainly because when he's about to go for a solo (you see it a lot in Earls Court '75, take a look before the solos on Sick Again and OTHAFA), you see him reach for the controls and quickly turn all 4 knobs all the way up. Before Whole Lotta Love at Earls Court, he puts the LP in the middle position and turns everything to 10 and plays away.
 

marshall1987

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Jimmy didnt have any push/pulls or pickguard buttons on any of his guitars until The Firm. He was somehow getting that almost single coil clarity out of a very hot PAF, which according to Tim Mills at BareKnuckle who got to examine Jimmy's Number One, read 8.97k. My neck pickup is an A5 7.5k and i still cant get the clarity he has...

That contradicts everything I have seen, read, heard, or viewed regarding Page's use of push/pull pots on his vintage Les Pauls during his time with Led Zeppelin. And I don't buy the "very hot PAF" theory. I cant imagine an instance where an overwound, or "very hot PAF" would produce "that almost single coil clarity." An overwound PAF will tend to sound very fat, thick, compressed, and emphasize the mi-range. Just the opposite of the thin out-of-phase (OOP) sound, or single coil clarity.

And it's common knowledge that Page had to replace the double-white PAF in the bridge position on his No. 1 Les Paul some time in 1971-1972 (I believe in Australia?). He replaced that vintage PAF with a double-black Gibson "T-top" IIRC. As a result of Gibson procuring dependable and more precise pickup winding machines in the mid-1960s, later patent-number and T-top humbucking pickups almost always measure in the
7.5 k-Ohm range.

I don't know about you, but I can clearly discern the out-of-phase sound in many of his Led Zeppelin recordings, both live and studio, beginning with Led Zeppelin III. Also, I've seen Led Zeppelin in concert three times, 1972, 1973, 1975. I am almost certain his Les Pauls had the modification during this time frame.

Just listen to his recordings and albums with Led Zeppelin beginning with Led Zeppelin III (1970)....

......the out-of-phase sound is featured on many LZ songs from the 3rd album on.

Page has said many times that he was very fond of the OOP sound Peter Green achieved with his revered 1959 Les Paul, so he had his Les Pauls modified while in Led Zeppelin.
 

KDunn99

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Guys like Tim Mills who have handled the guitar can confirm the high output neck pickup, and on the push/pulls during Zep, I'm going to quote Ed A from another thread,
"Stompbox, with all due respect, there is absolutely no way I would miss him popping the push pull, whether I was in the front row or not. Mainly because I would have heard it. That is why I was so surprised when I saw and heard him use it during the Black Crowes tour. You couldnt miss it, not only could you see him yank it, but you could hear it go out of phase. Listen to the Black Crowes CD during either the Lemon Song or You Shook Me jams (I cant remember which one, maybe both). You can clearly hear the guitar go way out of phase. I have never seen OR heard him do that prior to that tour with that guitar. And as I said Ive been to every tour since '72 and have bootlegs from every tour since the very beginning...."
 
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