sws1
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Gil - did you buy it?
This looks like a reissue to me??
- Thread starter jbzoso2002
- Start date
DrRobert
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We still don't have anything that approaches authentication. Just because it sold doesn't mean it's real (or not real, either). There are plenty of stories of "bursts" that have sold to reputable folks, later to be walked back (including the infamous "dentist" burst that I almost got burned with in the early 00s).
mdubya
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I hope the discussion continues. I don't think we have anything close to the truth.
sws1
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Would love to hear more about that one. And what was right/wrong about it.
deytookerjaabs
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My Tinfoil Hat is on and I alluded to it before but...
I call it "The Detroit Connection."
In that part of the world you have a lot of guys, and I'm not making specific accusations, who are 100% capable of uber high end replica builds if not in total at least as a husk to be doctored. Luczak, Collins, Currie, across the border LPF's favorite Mr. Lashing (who boasted of his being sold as vintage..? lol), and more I'm probably forgetting. There's been hairy "vintage Gibson" stuff come out of a certain store in East Lansing in the past which was posted about here too IIRC. If there's a few guys who could fool those with a ton of knowledge you can find at least one around Michigan.
Tinfoil continues...the other vintage guitars in the estate sale seem to be at a certain price point/area not far off from the extra high end replica builds (I know the claim was they were all bought new, by one of the first electric guitar collectors ever?). High end replicas, and/or conversions, often being owned next to similarly priced vintage is not uncommon from what I've seen.
Like I said, this is all baseless conjecture but I know first hand they pump some serious clones out in that part of the world and ya never know what could walk into a collection.
I call it "The Detroit Connection."
In that part of the world you have a lot of guys, and I'm not making specific accusations, who are 100% capable of uber high end replica builds if not in total at least as a husk to be doctored. Luczak, Collins, Currie, across the border LPF's favorite Mr. Lashing (who boasted of his being sold as vintage..? lol), and more I'm probably forgetting. There's been hairy "vintage Gibson" stuff come out of a certain store in East Lansing in the past which was posted about here too IIRC. If there's a few guys who could fool those with a ton of knowledge you can find at least one around Michigan.
Tinfoil continues...the other vintage guitars in the estate sale seem to be at a certain price point/area not far off from the extra high end replica builds (I know the claim was they were all bought new, by one of the first electric guitar collectors ever?). High end replicas, and/or conversions, often being owned next to similarly priced vintage is not uncommon from what I've seen.
Like I said, this is all baseless conjecture but I know first hand they pump some serious clones out in that part of the world and ya never know what could walk into a collection.
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chasenblues
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Just for clarity..I copied/pasted the "Its Real" from the for sale thread. It wasn't my opinion.
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DrRobert
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I joined the LPF after being offered a "58 Les Paul Custom" with all changed hardware on Ebay. When I took it to Dave's it was all wrong, but sending it back created a lot of heartburn. I kinda swore I'd learn a little more about old Gibsons. Fast forward a bit, I started thinking about a burst, and got PMing with a certain dentist who shall remain nameless. He claimed he'd found a pair of "under the bed" bursts and he'd sell me the lesser figured one for a price I could live with. Time went on and the guitar didn't show up. I went to Arlington that year, and he actually recommended I pick up the guitar that turned out to be Kat (59 lemon burst, ex-bigsby). At Dallas he brought the guitars and sold one of them to a well known dealer from the east coast (sorry this story is all "he" and "them" but I don't feel comfortable outing names at this point). When the dealer got the guitar home and disassembled it, it became obvious that it was a reproduction. Rumor has it that it was built by a certain Scandinavian luthier who didn't know that it was going to be put together will all vintage parts and sold as correct. Anyway, the guitar was taken back, money was returned, and said dentist claimed that it was only a test to see if he COULD fool the experts... I dodged a bullet and made some good friends. You've gotta go to Dallas and/or Arlington if you haven't!
Oh yeah, and I learned that I'm not going to buy another really valuable guitar without some pretty expert people helping me make sure I'm getting what I paid for!
Chef Greg
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...well, goodnight, I'm outta popcorn. 
la
la
goldtop0
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This is going to be one of those never ending threads..........I can tell:hmm
Sit back in the easy chair Martha.........it's gonna be a long one:lol
Sit back in the easy chair Martha.........it's gonna be a long one:lol
Unbound Dot Neck
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renderit
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mistersnappy
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That is seriously f**ked up.
DrRobert
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Well, it cost him what credibility he might have had in the guitar world, for essentially no gain, so yeah, kinda sad.
Chef Greg
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... or kinda sick.:dang
Pellman73
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This was an interesting read.... and it seems that this has not yet really been resolved?
I feel like the vintage les paul world is approaching Blade Runner these days.... its like--- is it real or a replicant? How can you tell? maybe its impossible in some cases?
In other words the authentication process by experts, from what I can gather, is really still subjective at the end of the day. There is no truly objective way to prove that a burst is real (if a random burst such as this one materializes out of thin air) right?
Just like anything else in the art or car world all we know for sure is bullet proof provenance (ha and even that I"m sure can be faked!). If something has provenance that can show a purchase and continuity of ownership (or at least a trustworthy story) from the beginning of that purchase to the time the new sale that is about as close as we can get to knowing that a burst is for real?
there was in interesting article recently in Vanity Fair about a french chair expert who actually sold fake chairs to the palace of versailles and a number of other wealthy people.... and another dude who is trying to warn auction houses about these chairs. He figured out that one chair was a fake by tasting it because he knew the forger's aging process looked familiar and knew he used licorice to do it!
It would just seem that if the forger can tick off every one of the check marks that is used to tell that something is authentic then they can even fool the experts
I guess you just have to be lucky and smart also in whatever serial number you put on the headstock to be sure that another like it doesn't exist?
I feel like the vintage les paul world is approaching Blade Runner these days.... its like--- is it real or a replicant? How can you tell? maybe its impossible in some cases?
In other words the authentication process by experts, from what I can gather, is really still subjective at the end of the day. There is no truly objective way to prove that a burst is real (if a random burst such as this one materializes out of thin air) right?
Just like anything else in the art or car world all we know for sure is bullet proof provenance (ha and even that I"m sure can be faked!). If something has provenance that can show a purchase and continuity of ownership (or at least a trustworthy story) from the beginning of that purchase to the time the new sale that is about as close as we can get to knowing that a burst is for real?
there was in interesting article recently in Vanity Fair about a french chair expert who actually sold fake chairs to the palace of versailles and a number of other wealthy people.... and another dude who is trying to warn auction houses about these chairs. He figured out that one chair was a fake by tasting it because he knew the forger's aging process looked familiar and knew he used licorice to do it!
It would just seem that if the forger can tick off every one of the check marks that is used to tell that something is authentic then they can even fool the experts
I guess you just have to be lucky and smart also in whatever serial number you put on the headstock to be sure that another like it doesn't exist?
P.Walker
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At that point, you're getting into the ethos of the guitar and the ship of theseus. Beyond the abstract genesis of the craftsmanship in kalamazoo, if every single minute detail that constitutes a burst is representative of a burst, is it a burst? To those who say yes, is it only the metaphysical that counts? To those who say no, what is the value of the original craftsmanship?
If a long owner of a burst used it so long that every single part was replaced at some point, is it still a burst?
I ask those questions to make two points: one that there is value in such discussions, and two, the world of bursts despite approaching 60 years now, is not really in danger of falling into the domain of fake chairs in museums.
Tom Wittrock
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No, not right. Hands on inspections by several experienced guys should do it.
As for this one being "unresolved", it has merely been presented on the internet with a few nice photos. I don't think any or us [besides the seller] have seen it in person.
We have a right to be skeptical, but I think most of us hope it is the real deal.
At some point this guitar will get further scrutiny and most questions will be answered satisfactorily.
goldtop0
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Love this...........as they say, the forger was 'hoist by his own petard'.
Everything is counterfeited this day and age, provenance and expert(reputable)examination is what we have to determine the real from the fake.......this Forum is a good place to be.
JJ Blair
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$30k for a two piece neck, sunburst '63 Rev FB VII? Mine's even earlier, with no bird on the pick guard. I wonder if that's a realistic price. I had no idea they were that expensive. That seems like a custom color price.
jalevinemd
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I'm kinda disappointed that the guitar sold. Now I'm afraid it's probably the last we'll hear of it and never know the truth. :dang