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P.A.F. Pickup Secrets: Start Wire and PAF Tone

jwalker

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Dec 10, 2004
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I just posted another PAF Pickup Secrets video. This one is about how the PAF style start lead impacts the microphonics and tone of the pickup. The video contains the most exciting and bizarre pickup shootout ever!


 

renderit

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Jan 19, 2009
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I GNU IT!

I'm not sure what, but I am pretty sure you just proved it!

I heard a difference!

But that was on my internal Mac speakers. And when you said "The Internal Lead pickup has a LOWER tone" I heard it as higher. I am assuming this may be caused by YouTubeness compression.
Or my gaseous phase. I am going to listen to this through my Studio Monitors now. So I'm testing your test. I will try to remain scientific though my giddiness may require me to repeat it all night long.

I will check back in the morning to report my findings. I may have to use shock therapy to stay awake but it is worth it in the
pursuit of being sciencer!©®℗™℞℃

Seriously. Thank you. It does explain a few things.

And the expression "I gnu it!" simply means I figured there must be some reason somebody would find some day that explains the audible differences. I didn't actually GNO it was the little wire or anything like that. I do suspect somebody will also find Z and Zinj soon but that is science for another day.
 
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TM1

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Brilliant Jon!! Makes total sense to me.
So.., o.k. One thing I've been wondering about the last couple of years is the purity of the copper bobbin wire. My friend Tom (TV) Jones said the wire from the `50's into the Sixties was not pure copper but had other metals mixed in like lead, silver, gold, etc in varying degrees. Probably a result of metals being used during the War.
Any truth to that Jon?
Thanks!
Don
 

renderit

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And the other question I would have in that vein is what else about that wire is different? I have a pair made from a spool of 50's wire. It definitely sounds different. VERY different.
 

jwalker

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Dec 10, 2004
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Brilliant Jon!! Makes total sense to me.
So.., o.k. One thing I've been wondering about the last couple of years is the purity of the copper bobbin wire. My friend Tom (TV) Jones said the wire from the `50's into the Sixties was not pure copper but had other metals mixed in like lead, silver, gold, etc in varying degrees. Probably a result of metals being used during the War.
Any truth to that Jon?
Thanks!
Don

My understanding is magnet wire companies used to be located in proximity to easy access to a Copper source. Anaconda wire was located in Muskegon Michigan for easy delivery of Copper from Michigan's upper peninsula through the great lakes. Phelps Dodge was in Arizona where they actually owned a Copper mine. So I think it is probably unlikely that any impurities were due to recycled Copper. It is my understanding that variation in impurities is due to different source of Copper ore. Each source of Copper ore has its own signature in terms of the impurities in the ore and those impurities will show in small levels in the processed Copper. In addition I think copper magnet wire is actually an alloy that has a small amount of Nickel added and the source of Nickel would also have trace impurities.

When it comes to impurities in magnet wire and pickups the real tonal impact is on the ohms per foot of the wire. More impurities, the higher the ohms per foot and vice versa. This difference means you can have NOS wire the is .00275" wire from one manufacturer and .00275" wire from another manufacturer but they can have as much as a 7% difference in ohms per foot even though they measure the same in diameter. You will hear the difference for the same number of turns in a pickup. However the two remaining plain enamel magnet wire magnet wire makers must use a different source for the copper because you can simulate that same ohms per foot variation if you buy from both wire makers. This is what I do.
 

jwalker

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And the other question I would have in that vein is what else about that wire is different? I have a pair made from a spool of 50's wire. It definitely sounds different. VERY different.

If you are talking about ThroBak LTD version of the pickups it would depend upon when they were made. Before the MXV specs. I used off the shelf bobbins that were not butyrate and also have dimensions that were not vintage correct. Also the magnet may not be MXV spec..
 

renderit

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Jan 19, 2009
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No, different brand, not yours. Supposedly proper materials for the rest of the equation.
 

TM1

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My understanding is magnet wire companies used to be located in proximity to easy access to a Copper source. Anaconda wire was located in Muskegon Michigan for easy delivery of Copper from Michigan's upper peninsula through the great lakes. Phelps Dodge was in Arizona where they actually owned a Copper mine. So I think it is probably unlikely that any impurities were due to recycled Copper. It is my understanding that variation in impurities is due to different source of Copper ore. Each source of Copper ore has its own signature in terms of the impurities in the ore and those impurities will show in small levels in the processed Copper. In addition I think copper magnet wire is actually an alloy that has a small amount of Nickel added and the source of Nickel would also have trace impurities.

When it comes to impurities in magnet wire and pickups the real tonal impact is on the ohms per foot of the wire. More impurities, the higher the ohms per foot and vice versa. This difference means you can have NOS wire the is .00275" wire from one manufacturer and .00275" wire from another manufacturer but they can have as much as a 7% difference in ohms per foot even though they measure the same in diameter. You will hear the difference for the same number of turns in a pickup. However the two remaining plain enamel magnet wire magnet wire makers must use a different source for the copper because you can simulate that same ohms per foot variation if you buy from both wire makers. This is what I do.

Jon; Wow!! This is great to know! I love this geeky kinda info. I also greatly appreciate you're willingness to share it!! Even though I'll probably never ever wind pickups, I love knowing what goes into the whole process. I'm sure that most just look at a pickup as a couple of coils and a magnet, but I like knowing what goes into them to make them sound the ways they do.
Do me a favour.. if I ever decide to wind pickups, wack me in the head with a 2x4..
Muskegon? I've played there at some big theater. Lovely town with really nice folks.Same with Calumet & Muskeegon.. I rthink they use to have alot of mining in Calumet. The theater we played in there has a strange history of ghosts from some dispute over a labour contract between (what else..) management & the workers.
Anyway, Michigan is a lovely State. One of my oldest and closest friends was in a band from Flint called "The Woolies"
 

marshall1987

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Jon: Do you have any experience salvaging old vintage P-90 magnet wire, and then reusing the wire to wind a new PAF pickup replica? I have just such a candidate 1958 P-90 out of a Les Paul Junior which I had considered the possibility. Thanks.
 

Big Al

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Apr 24, 2002
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14,537
EXCELLENT!!!

I could hear a clear difference, but I heard something different. Too me the internal start, PAF, pickup had more mids. It seemed to push more mids into the low and high end. I heard the external lead, PAT #, pickup as having less mids, maybe scooped a bit with clearer defined low end and high end. The lows and highs seemed similar between the pickups but there was more separation with the PAT # between midrange and highs and lows, if that makes any sense. The fullness of the internal start wire PAF may be the fatter apparent midrange which was what I found to be the biggest difference. Fascinating video and as always I am so impressed with your attention to detail and 'just gotta know' nature that results in great pickups and greater knowledge that we all can share in.

Now you all know how bad my ol' ears are!!!!! Eyesights going too!:##:dang
 
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TM1

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Jun 27, 2003
Messages
8,349
EXCELLENT!!!

I could hear a clear difference, but I heard something different. Too me the internal start, PAF, pickup had more miss. It seemed to push more miss into the low and high end. I heard the external lead, PAT #, pickup as having less miss, maybe scooped a bit with clearer defined low end and high end. The lows and highs seemed similar between the pickups but there was more separation with the PAT # between midrange and highs and lows, if that makes any sense. The fullness of the internal start wire PAF may be the fatter apparent midrange which was what I found to be the biggest difference. Fascinating video and as always I am so impressed with your attention to detail and 'just gotta know' nature that results in great pickups and greater knowledge that we all can share in.

Now you all know how bad my ol' ears are!!!!! Eyesights going too!:##:dang
where the plus button or thumbs up button..
Great stuff!
 

El Gringo

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Jon outstanding , your tremendous knowledge is such a valuable treasure and I greatly appreciate it along with your most awesome pickups !
 

jwalker

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Jon: Do you have any experience salvaging old vintage P-90 magnet wire, and then reusing the wire to wind a new PAF pickup replica? I have just such a candidate 1958 P-90 out of a Les Paul Junior which I had considered the possibility. Thanks.

I have tried it and don’t care to do it again. The problem is once the wire is tensioned and wound on a bobbin it becomes work hardened and no longer has the properties wire should have coming off the spool.
 

Wallace

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Feb 23, 2003
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Interesting video :salude

I could definitely hear a difference in the tap tests but not so much in the guitar being used.
 

marshall1987

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I have tried it and don’t care to do it again. The problem is once the wire is tensioned and wound on a bobbin it becomes work hardened and no longer has the properties wire should have coming off the spool.



Makes sense....the old vintage magnet wire acquires a degree of "memory" after decades of tension on a pickup bobbin.
 
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