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Gibson Memphis 1963 Reissue ES-335 VOS

wmachine

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Mar 17, 2016
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In fact, the glue was the smallest problem on this guitar. The guitar had many serious construction flaws, for example check the botched string spacing. The guitar was very hard to play and the sloppy construction was worse than on cheap Asian fakes in fact... :hmm
Well that's obviously much more than a glue issue, if there is such a thing. Sorry you got stuck with a bad one. Just for the record, what year/model year is it?
Misaligned strings have a number of causes, I've seen more that one that was off location notch in a saddle, others fixed by a new nut. But it can be worse than that, too. And that is not debatably a quality problem.
One would think string alignment should be really easy thing to check in inspection, but in process inspection, and certainly final inspection.
 

Progrocker111

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Just for the record, what year/model year is it?

Late 2015 63 ES335 Wildwood specs. The guitar was really a total mess, i was in shock how could it pass the perhaps non-existing quality control and even met Wildwood specs... :dang Most probably wrong set neck.

And the neck was set with too high angle too, look at the height of the bridge, really historically accurate :hee

So i would be really beware to buy anything from Memphis online and unseen. :hmm

zo5b5S9.jpg
 

AA00475Bassman

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Prog I do see your points on this guitar , the bridge hight is a issue one I could not over look, the spacing with the strings is unacceptable . Your point of Memphis purchase online is justified . After receiving this guitar !
 

reddeluxe

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Like AA000475, I also own a 2015 '64 RI VOS spec ES 345, with none of the quality control issues brought up in previous posts (construction, glue squeeze out, neck shape/angle, bridge height, or string spacing) and I am extremely pleased with the instrument and the MHS pickups. It compares quite favorably to several examples of authentic "Golden Era" 3xx models I have owned in my playing career. My opinion on the '63 RI 335 is that the neck profile is fairly unique compared to the typical modern " '60's slim taper" neck profile that is fairly standard on the Memphis "core" ES models, and is actually fairly historically accurate....it starts relatively slender at the first fret in depth (but not as thin as the '61 RI, with a nice width at the nut) but has a more aggressive taper up to the neck joint (gets fuller, faster). The neck shoulders are also slightly fuller and rolled into the binding more. It is a very comfortable feeling neck to my hands...YMMV, because this is a very subjective thing to each individual player. Also, despite modern CNC manufacturing techniques, each Gibson neck still has quite a lot of hand shaping and fitting, so no two necks are totally identical. I would not purchase ANY guitar sight unseen, without a right of refusal negotiated into the sale, to be certain you are comfortable with the neck shape and playability. If you have the opportunity to play it in person, take your most comfortable playing guitar with you, and directly compare the neck profiles and playability. As with any mass produced product, you can always find a poorly constructed example, compared to the typical average better quality of the majority of production.
 

AA00475Bassman

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Red deluxe made one point buying sight un seen , many of these issues hands on would give failing marks .

the high tune o matic would be a deal breaker hanging on the wall , wrong depth of neck pocket neck tenon to high from floor of pocket wrong angle . I really could go on & on definitely A memphis TURD .

I also really like MHS pickups Compared to Nashville .


Disclaimer , if your offended due to my SUBJECTIVE OPINION calls your guitar a TURD relax have a coke !
 

Shakey

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I've got a 16 63ri 335. Really nice guitar none of the aforementioned issues, great player. The MHS pickups where great but I did eventually swap them out for a set of OX4's I thought the neck pickup was stellar but as I got to know the guitar better I found the bridge pickup weedy and mute'd in comparison with not much definition in the top end so hence the change. As far as neck's go it's not a "slim" neck in the sense that it's got some depth to it but it's by no means a chunky neck, I don't like small necks either and I really get on with it FWIW.

When I was looking to buy mine I tried out 10 or 15 different RI 335 and 345's and they all varied wildly, I never played a lemon in terms of play ability but they do vary wildly in sound as you might expect, some I thought sounded great others less soo. However I wouldn't say that any of them where "bad" just not what I was looking for. So that being said if your buying sight unseen on a guitar like this I think your rolling the dice a little!
 

GotTheSilver

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Red deluxe made one point buying sight un seen , many of these issues hands on would give failing marks .

the high tune o matic would be a deal breaker hanging on the wall , wrong depth of neck pocket neck tenon to high from floor of pocket wrong angle . I really could go on & on definitely A memphis TURD .

I also really like MHS pickups Compared to Nashville .


Disclaimer , if your offended due to my SUBJECTIVE OPINION calls your guitar a TURD relax have a coke !

It really surprises me in this day of CNC manufacturing that there is still variability in neck angle and depth among guitars of the same model. The neck pockets and tenons should be completely CNC'ed. There should be no hand work on these at all. Every one should be perfect. Anything less should be unacceptable today. Maybe the new ownership will get these things sorted out.
 

wmachine

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It really surprises me in this day of CNC manufacturing that there is still variability in neck angle and depth among guitars of the same model. The neck pockets and tenons should be completely CNC'ed. There should be no hand work on these at all. Every one should be perfect. Anything less should be unacceptable today. Maybe the new ownership will get these things sorted out.
No offense meant, but I think you should watch one of the Memphis tour videos and get a better understanding of how they are really made. Everyone throws out "CNC" machining with little understanding of how it relates to a guitar being made. There are tolerances for fits (neck to body), and the fitting is done by hand. So there are no "exact" dimensions. There is nothing locking it in either.
So while the CNC machining helps, it does not determine the quality of the fit. I think people's understanding of the process needs fixed more than the process does.
 

Strings Jr.

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Late 2015 63 ES335 Wildwood specs. The guitar was really a total mess, i was in shock how could it pass the perhaps non-existing quality control and even met Wildwood specs... :dang Most probably wrong set neck.

And the neck was set with too high angle too, look at the height of the bridge, really historically accurate :hee

So i would be really beware to buy anything from Memphis online and unseen. :hmm

zo5b5S9.jpg

That's terrible.

Never would have made it out the door on my watch.
 

AA00475Bassman

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I believe Gotthesilver is a Gibson base customer & one who takes note of neck set when selecting a Gibson guitar this is one of many things that will define his choice when buying . We all know he can play the crap out of these fine guitars , so take note to his view point I DO .

As for as Gotthesilvers statement how & why ? Disclaimer , This is my subjective OPINION relax have a COKE !

When many of your base customers are buying on line not playing checking for craftsmanship Really whet is your check list online most likely weight , wood grain , color and the famous statement pick me out a good one !

Prog's Memphis ES guitar makes my point they boxed up the turd and tried to get rid of it online .

I do realize many do not have availability when buying so online is the option .

Has Gibsons QC gone lax ? I think they build great guitars !
 

deytookerjaabs

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Gibson does build great guitars when the line is functional but due to daily quote pressure from the top when **** goes bad they push things out the door that never should have been.


My 2016 Firebird was a great guitar, I also took it back the afternoon I bought it so the tech at the store could put a nut on the truss bolt

:##

They were pretty shocked and it was a PITA to screw on because the rod end was painted over. That should really never happen considering the multiple levels of inspection the guitar is supposed​ to get.
 

reddeluxe

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My final 2 cents on current factory Memphis ES build quality and overall QC is this. If you are not aware, it takes the average production line piece about two weeks from start to finished guitar, ready to be packed and shipped. There are quality control steps all along the way of this manufacturing process. I believe the average overall build quality is extremely close to the "Golden Era" models that we all compare them to and crave. I feel sure that the overall grade of the woods and other build materials is not quite of the quality that was generally available during the "Golden Era", because it no longer obtainable in our current environment, at any kind of reasonable cost. And I believe the craftsmanship and attention of the employees is equal, too, when they are ALLOWED to do their jobs. But there are other issues that have nothing to do whatsoever with the physical process of building the guitars at play. Forced production output has sometimes reached 70 guitars per day, in the past. Despite automation, CNC equipment, etc., an inordinate amount of hand work is required on every instrument, from the least expensive to the most costly. When workers are tasked with performing work in a fraction of the time they normally would expend, because of bad decisions from ownership/management to push instruments into the retail supply pipeline to generate more cash flow, and when the most senior skilled and experienced employees are laid off or fired, as cost cutting, to be replaced by less expensive, but also less experienced workers, something is going to sometimes slip. It is also bad for general company morale, and personal pride of work. Also the original Kalamazoo production totals were much smaller, even at the height of the guitar boom of the mid/late Sixties, compared to today's production output. And that output from Kalamazoo was accomplished by a highly skilled, experienced, stable workforce. Not making excuses for poor workmanship or build quality, just showing the reality of the two different eras. Having lived through the "Golden Age" of Gibson 3xx guitars, I can certainly attest that there were substandard guitars built back then, too, but the percentage was much smaller, due to more time and effort spent on each individual instrument. We were all looking for "a good one" back then, as now. As with any mass produced product, there are going to be exceptional, average, and worse quality examples. I hope the new owners/management will support and let the workforce consistently turn out the high quality and value work they are capable of.
 

TM1

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In late 2014 I bought a `63 block inlay ES-335TDC. Mine has none of the glue issues or neck angle issue. It's splitting hairs close to all the original ES-335's I've played that were made between `62-`65. I've played alot of them over the last 52 years.
Glue.. well at least it's hide glue, but still sloppy vs. what I've seen. You could probably chip it out if it really bothers you.
I was happy that I waited until Gibson used the right Truss Rod, Hide Glue , center block and cedar rim linings.
 

GotTheSilver

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No offense meant, but I think you should watch one of the Memphis tour videos and get a better understanding of how they are really made. Everyone throws out "CNC" machining with little understanding of how it relates to a guitar being made. There are tolerances for fits (neck to body), and the fitting is done by hand. So there are no "exact" dimensions. There is nothing locking it in either.
So while the CNC machining helps, it does not determine the quality of the fit. I think people's understanding of the process needs fixed more than the process does.

I think I understand a lot more than you give me credit for. I build guitars myself. And even though I probably overstated my position in my quickly written post, I still think you probably did not fully understand my meaning. I have watched Gibson factory tour videos of both Memphis and Nashville (LPs) and have seen them using chisels on the neck tenon to do the final fitting. If a tenon and neck pocket are properly machined, all that should be required to get a great fit is a bit of sanding. Typically, outside of a factory setting, you intentionally make the neck pocket a little bit too snug so that tenon will not fit. Then you lightly sand the tenon until you can fit it into the pocket with some force. A chisel should not be required at all. Take a look at PRS factory tour videos. They have sandpaper in their neck fitting stations, not chisels. (I wasn't really considering the light sanding when I said "no hand work" in my original post. Sorry if that was confusing.)

I have seen pictures on this forum of 335s with quite a bit of variability in neck depth and angle. Some pictures appear to be 1/8" or more variance in neck depth. In terms of building a guitar, 1/8" is enormous! I don't see any reason that there should be that kind of variability in a neck set, whether done by an independent luthier or on a factory floor.

Yes, I do think Gibson's process should be changed. I think that Gibson chooses to do some manufacturing processes in an old school way for purposes of tradition and marketing ("hand made"). A lot of people say they want a hand made guitar, then complain about the results of the hand work.
 

wmachine

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I think I understand a lot more than you give me credit for. I build guitars myself. And even though I probably overstated my position in my quickly written post, I still think you probably did not fully understand my meaning. I have watched Gibson factory tour videos of both Memphis and Nashville (LPs) and have seen them using chisels on the neck tenon to do the final fitting. If a tenon and neck pocket are properly machined, all that should be required to get a great fit is a bit of sanding. Typically, outside of a factory setting, you intentionally make the neck pocket a little bit too snug so that tenon will not fit. Then you lightly sand the tenon until you can fit it into the pocket with some force. A chisel should not be required at all. Take a look at PRS factory tour videos. They have sandpaper in their neck fitting stations, not chisels. (I wasn't really considering the light sanding when I said "no hand work" in my original post. Sorry if that was confusing.)

I have seen pictures on this forum of 335s with quite a bit of variability in neck depth and angle. Some pictures appear to be 1/8" or more variance in neck depth. In terms of building a guitar, 1/8" is enormous! I don't see any reason that there should be that kind of variability in a neck set, whether done by an independent luthier or on a factory floor.

(FWIW, I'd much rather have a nice hand crafted guitar than a perfect one spit out by a CNC machine/robots. But that's just me and the way I see guitars)

Yes, I do think Gibson's process should be changed. I think that Gibson chooses to do some manufacturing processes in an old school way for purposes of tradition and marketing ("hand made"). A lot of people say they want a hand made guitar, then complain about the results of the hand work.

Okay, you've seen chisels, but I'm not so sure your conclusions are really representative of what the problem is. Regardless, you really did sell short your understanding in the original post. Bottom line is that CNC age or not, there is still far more hand skills needed to make a quality guitar than CNC machining brings to the process.
It's a whole 'nuther thing to consider whether the 1/8" gap warrants a process change. Especially where hand work is involved. Since I'm not there, I don't know if "the process is wrong, or the process wasn't followed" to get that result. Definitely change process if that result is typical, but I don't think that is even close to typical. Just seeing of few out of a 1.000 doesn't point to a process change.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with them being hand made to the degree that they are. They can be hand made and well made. That means skilled labor. To me, *that* is one of Gibson's biggest challenges/priorities.

(FWIW, I'd rather have a less than perfect well hand built guitar than a perfect one spit out by a CNC machine/robot. But that's just me and the way I see guitars)
 

GotTheSilver

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Okay, you've seen chisels, but I'm not so sure your conclusions are really representative of what the problem is. Regardless, you really did sell short your understanding in the original post. Bottom line is that CNC age or not, there is still far more hand skills needed to make a quality guitar than CNC machining brings to the process.
It's a whole 'nuther thing to consider whether the 1/8" gap warrants a process change. Especially where hand work is involved. Since I'm not there, I don't know if "the process is wrong, or the process wasn't followed" to get that result. Definitely change process if that result is typical, but I don't think that is even close to typical. Just seeing of few out of a 1.000 doesn't point to a process change.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with them being hand made to the degree that they are. They can be hand made and well made. That means skilled labor. To me, *that* is one of Gibson's biggest challenges/priorities.

(FWIW, I'd rather have a less than perfect well hand built guitar than a perfect one spit out by a CNC machine/robot. But that's just me and the way I see guitars)

You are correct that neither one of us is there on the factory floor, therefore we cannot know for sure what contributes to quality issues / variability, what should / should not be changed and how prevalent the issues are. All of us on this and other forums are just speculating from afar! What is clear is that we are both united in our love of Gibson guitars! Rock on, brother! :headbange
 

deytookerjaabs

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You are correct that neither one of us is there on the factory floor, therefore we cannot know for sure what contributes to quality issues / variability, what should / should not be changed and how prevalent the issues are. All of us on this and other forums are just speculating from afar! What is clear is that we are both united in our love of Gibson guitars! Rock on, brother! :headbange


There was a recent former employee who did an "AMA" on the Tele site, basically describing situations where people had to do jobs they weren't yet fully trained for, staffing issues, you don't leave until the quota is reached, that kind of thing. If I can find it I'll link it but that'll be tough. A number of guys working at the Nashville Sam Ash & GC locations went through the Gibson revolving door.
 

GotTheSilver

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There was a recent former employee who did an "AMA" on the Tele site, basically describing situations where people had to do jobs they weren't yet fully trained for, staffing issues, you don't leave until the quota is reached, that kind of thing. If I can find it I'll link it but that'll be tough. A number of guys working at the Nashville Sam Ash & GC locations went through the Gibson revolving door.

That would be an interesting read if you can find it.
 

deytookerjaabs

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That would be an interesting read if you can find it.


I tried every little search keyword and nothing, uhg, I should have bookmarked it. I did get a good quote from a long time poster there who went through the revolving door himself:

The last of those is important.


The employee turn-over at Gibson is unbelievable. I may be unique in the TDPri in that I worked for Gibson, but I am not unique in Nashville in the least. You bump into former Gibson employees everywhere you go. The only thing that creates a new employee pool for Gibson is that they are located in Nashville, where it seems like a good idea to every young guitar player moving to town to work there. They do that for a couple of years... then get tired of the whole mess and quit. Meanwhile, there's a list of fresh new Nashville residents to take their place.


I have never even heard of a company with such low employee morale.


When I was there, you could not take a vacation day bumped up against a national holiday. So... you could not take off the day before or after 4th of July, or Christmas, or New Years... or Thanksgiving. You could not create a four day weekend for yourself by taking a vacation day on the Friday before Memorial Day.


Also, depending on production needs, they would occasionally close the plant for a few days here and there from time to time... and charge it against your vacation time. Forced vacation. If you had family plans later in the year, but the plant closing eats up that vacation time... then you can choose not to get paid for one or the other.


Over and over and over... and you're dealing with stuff like this, just to see Henry in the local news paper opening a new Gibson Cafe somewhere, or doing a ribbon cutting for a new factory in Memphis, or giving guitars away to Steven Seagal.
 
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