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  1. #1
    Les Paul Forum Member jam81's Avatar
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    Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Hi,

    I have been thinking about buying a 59 True Historc but I saw the new 2018 59 Historics are pretty much the same specs at a lower price, except for it not being double carved. I am not a historic expert by any means but I would like to know the following.

    What does the double carving mean and how does this affect the tone / playability?
    Would you suggest looking for a TH as opposed to the 2018 historics?

    Thank you for any feedback and guidance!

  2. #2

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Only the most powerful cork sniffery is the difference, tone wise is negligible. I believe it's a final hand shaping of the top. There are a couple other differences but unless you play both to know, you won't. They all are different, play them both and get the best one, but see if you can get close to the '18 price on the TH if the TH is better. Apply poker face with abandon while playing them.

  3. #3

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by jam81 View Post
    Hi,

    I have been thinking about buying a 59 True Historc but I saw the new 2018 59 Historics are pretty much the same specs at a lower price, except for it not being double carved. I am not a historic expert by any means but I would like to know the following.

    What does the double carving mean and how does this affect the tone / playability?
    Would you suggest looking for a TH as opposed to the 2018 historics?

    Thank you for any feedback and guidance!
    The double carve on the TH guitars simply means that the CNC go over the top carve 2 times instead on once and at a slower speed. This leaves less hand sanding to be done but has ZERO effect on tone. The new 2018 top carve is actually more accurate and scanned from the top carve on the original burst "Carmelita". If you want an accurate neck size and carve, the 2018's have that.

  4. #4
    Les Paul Forum Member jam81's Avatar
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by markguitar View Post
    The double carve on the TH guitars simply means that the CNC go over the top carve 2 times instead on once and at a slower speed. This leaves less hand sanding to be done but has ZERO effect on tone. The new 2018 top carve is actually more accurate and scanned from the top carve on the original burst "Carmelita". If you want an accurate neck size and carve, the 2018's have that.
    Great. Thanks to both. Definitely good information. I live in Chicago and I haven't found someone who has neither but I did find in the Chicago music exchange they have their own run of CME historic Les Paul standard for significantly less money. Any idea if they are worth the try? Has anybody compared them to historic? Ps. I have a 2016 standard HP so I want something close to the vintage Les Paul to complement it.

  5. #5

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    The TH will hold more value down the road....they are both great guitars but at the end of the day it's not a TH.....just the production numbers alone make the TH more valuable so go find a used one just my 2 cents

  6. #6

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Don't pay more for a guitar that doesn't sound as good just because it might be a better investment. Beware the LP that's been for sale for a LONG time. They are instruments above all.

  7. #7
    Les Paul Forum Member jam81's Avatar
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Thanks for all the valuable responses!

  8. #8

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Go to the Chicago music exchange try out their CME line go see Matt. Their historics are Carmelita carves...different neck profiles. Only difference is they use a slightly underwound pickup. Try them you wonít be disappointed

    Quote Originally Posted by jam81 View Post
    Great. Thanks to both. Definitely good information. I live in Chicago and I haven't found someone who has neither but I did find in the Chicago music exchange they have their own run of CME historic Les Paul standard for significantly less money. Any idea if they are worth the try? Has anybody compared them to historic? Ps. I have a 2016 standard HP so I want something close to the vintage Les Paul to complement it.

  9. #9

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    My honest opinion is that the 2018 series have the weird white binding and overly faded colors
    the only good thing about the 2018 are the ones with braz boards but that’s over 8-10k

    comparing both, the TH has better rolled fingerboard binding, double carved necks that seem to fit better, thin-nitro that was hand-sanded making the guitars more “open”

    2018 (59s) go for $5700-5900 whereas used TH are about 5800-6100- personally I prefer the TH way more! The 2018 with the botched binding color and weird faded back colors- not to mention the incomplete burst color are somewhat a step backward

  10. #10
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    The neck shape on the 2018s stand out to me. Also, you can get new ones for way less than $5,700 if you know where to look.

  11. #11

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by ONEHERO View Post

    The 2018 with the botched binding color and weird faded back colors- not to mention the incomplete burst color are somewhat a step backward

    that's a brutal assessment

    I actually find the 2018 to be the most vintage looking

  12. #12
    Les Paul Forum Member jam81's Avatar
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by Analoga1p View Post
    Go to the Chicago music exchange try out their CME line go see Matt. Their historics are Carmelita carves...different neck profiles. Only difference is they use a slightly underwound pickup. Try them you wonít be disappointed
    What would an underwound pick-up sound like compared to a regularly wound one?

  13. #13
    Les Paul Forum Member jam81's Avatar
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by 6L6 View Post
    The neck shape on the 2018s stand out to me. Also, you can get new ones for way less than $5,700 if you know where to look.
    Where would I find them at that price?

  14. #14

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by ONEHERO View Post
    My honest opinion is that the 2018 series have the weird white binding and overly faded colors
    the only good thing about the 2018 are the ones with braz boards but that’s over 8-10k

    comparing both, the TH has better rolled fingerboard binding, double carved necks that seem to fit better, thin-nitro that was hand-sanded making the guitars more “open”

    2018 (59s) go for $5700-5900 whereas used TH are about 5800-6100- personally I prefer the TH way more! The 2018 with the botched binding color and weird faded back colors- not to mention the incomplete burst color are somewhat a step backward
    Well, only two of the colors are fades. Royal Tea and Vintage Cherry are not what you describe at all.

    Edit: I see, you’re talking back colors as well.

    I would give the TH a chance first, simply because they won’t be around very much longer.

  15. #15

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by jam81 View Post
    What would an underwound pick-up sound like compared to a regularly wound one?
    Why don't you just go to CME, play them, and find out for yourself? Seems like people put more faith in their eyes rather than their ears nowadays.

    I might be wrong but I believe the CME runs have CME in the serial number. That doesn't concern me any but some people are so anal, they won't buy a regular reissue with a six digit serial number.
    Tim

  16. #16
    Les Paul Forum Member ntotoro's Avatar
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by jam81 View Post
    What would an underwound pick-up sound like compared to a regularly wound one?
    My own experience, comparing my 2014 R9 (Custombuckers) and 2013 R54 Oxblood (underwound Custombuckers spec'd by Wildwood Guitars), the underwound pickups are a bit brighter and have a hair more clarity. It was enough to hear the difference through the same amp, but difficult to quantify how much was the guitar. That they obviously had a little less push was universal, I'd guess. My Oxblood is a little louder unplugged, but that particular R9 sounds bigger and more balanced unplugged, if that makes sense.

    Nick

  17. #17

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by markguitar View Post
    The double carve on the TH guitars simply means that the CNC go over the top carve 2 times instead on once and at a slower speed. This leaves less hand sanding to be done but has ZERO effect on tone. The new 2018 top carve is actually more accurate and scanned from the top carve on the original burst "Carmelita". If you want an accurate neck size and carve, the 2018's have that.
    Do you know if there is a difference in the finish / lacquer used on the TH versus a 2018 Historic?
    And are the 2018s wet sanded? (Seems like I heard they are not.)
    Is the 2018 binding on the neck "rolled"?
    ************************************************** ******************************
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  18. #18
    Les Paul Forum Member jam81's Avatar
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Plains View Post
    Why don't you just go to CME, play them, and find out for yourself? Seems like people put more faith in their eyes rather than their ears nowadays.

    I might be wrong but I believe the CME runs have CME in the serial number. That doesn't concern me any but some people are so anal, they won't buy a regular reissue with a six digit serial number.
    I will definitely go check them out over the weekend, I don't mind the serial number as I am not planing on buying it for resale but to keep it for a long time.

  19. #19
    Les Paul Forum Member wizardmc's Avatar
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    On the 2018s, the white binding is not as white in person as in pictures- there is a slight amber hue. Same with the Gibson Logo. It looks fine. Some pics make it look like Rossís black lighted teeth.

  20. #20

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by ONEHERO View Post
    The 2018 with the botched binding color and weird faded back colors- not to mention the incomplete burst color are somewhat a step backward

    Oh brother
    My Gibsons: 2018 LP '59 Historic, 2018 LP Jr '58 Historic, 2018 LP/SG Historic, 2016 Firebird I '63 Historic, 2015 Firebird III '64 Historic, 2011 ES-335 Wrap-Tail '59 Historic, 2011 LP Special '60 Historic, 2001 Thunderbird bass
    Quote Originally Posted by 82 Silverburst View Post
    What I see on this forum more and more is akin to little girls playing dress up with their dolls, getting them ready for some tea party.

  21. #21

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by jam81 View Post
    Where would I find them at that price?
    I got mine at Mark's Guitar Loft. Came to $5455 with expedited shipping
    My Gibsons: 2018 LP '59 Historic, 2018 LP Jr '58 Historic, 2018 LP/SG Historic, 2016 Firebird I '63 Historic, 2015 Firebird III '64 Historic, 2011 ES-335 Wrap-Tail '59 Historic, 2011 LP Special '60 Historic, 2001 Thunderbird bass
    Quote Originally Posted by 82 Silverburst View Post
    What I see on this forum more and more is akin to little girls playing dress up with their dolls, getting them ready for some tea party.

  22. #22
    Les Paul Forum Member MrMarr's Avatar
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by jam81 View Post
    I will definitely go check them out over the weekend, I don't mind the serial number as I am not planing on buying it for resale but to keep it for a long time.
    If you're legitimately just buying one to play, own and love, because you just want a really fantastic LP (the best you can get etc) than I honestly would really encourage you to consider the CME models heavily.

    The only reason I would suggest going TH or 2018 Historic is if the finer details regarding vintage accuracey (ie mostly on the finishing touches) matter highly to you (most of them are absolutely the same as the CME models, as they've been built to TH specs, albeit a couple tweaks on some models like different neck profiles, though they offer the '59 profile too).

    I was in your shoes a couple months back and I ended up buying a CME model.

    If you're truly buying it to play, love, and hold onto for a really long time, and you just want the best LP, the best tone, and you don't care about what serial number it is or resale value, than the CME LP's are easily the best value on the market right now.

    Here's mine.. love love love it.







    Also, CME do have another batch coming for 2018 - their CEO was there at the custom shop a while ago selecting the wood and specs for the models (he was posting about it on instagram).. I'm hoping they start coming in soon as I'm looking to pick up one more.
    2 Historic LP's - 1 ES-LP - 1 ES-335 - 2 Tele's - 1 P-Bass - 1 J45

  23. #23

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    He he is spot on with this! The underwound pickups sound good a little more of a bite. Although some can sound shrill but try them out hereís mine 8B973EFC-5414-46FA-B14C-1FD4C71F6CED.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Plains View Post
    Why don't you just go to CME, play them, and find out for yourself? Seems like people put more faith in their eyes rather than their ears nowadays.

    I might be wrong but I believe the CME runs have CME in the serial number. That doesn't concern me any but some people are so anal, they won't buy a regular reissue with a six digit serial number.

  24. #24
    Les Paul Forum Member jam81's Avatar
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMarr View Post
    If you're legitimately just buying one to play, own and love, because you just want a really fantastic LP (the best you can get etc) than I honestly would really encourage you to consider the CME models heavily.

    The only reason I would suggest going TH or 2018 Historic is if the finer details regarding vintage accuracey (ie mostly on the finishing touches) matter highly to you (most of them are absolutely the same as the CME models, as they've been built to TH specs, albeit a couple tweaks on some models like different neck profiles, though they offer the '59 profile too).

    I was in your shoes a couple months back and I ended up buying a CME model.

    If you're truly buying it to play, love, and hold onto for a really long time, and you just want the best LP, the best tone, and you don't care about what serial number it is or resale value, than the CME LP's are easily the best value on the market right now.

    Here's mine.. love love love it.







    Also, CME do have another batch coming for 2018 - their CEO was there at the custom shop a while ago selecting the wood and specs for the models (he was posting about it on instagram).. I'm hoping they start coming in soon as I'm looking to pick up one more.

    That is a beauty!! I heard a couple of videos of them on youtube and they just have an amazing tone, I am definitely leaning towards them.

  25. #25

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Iím not sure if 2017/2018s are not wet sanded. I think they are. The difference to the TH might be the Ąby handď part?

  26. #26
    Les Paul Forum Member jam81's Avatar
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpthomas View Post
    Iím not sure if 2017/2018s are not wet sanded. I think they are. The difference to the TH might be the Ąby handď part?
    Does wet sanding make a difference?

  27. #27

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    I might be wrong but I believe the CME runs have CME in the serial number. That doesn't concern me any but some people are so anal, they won't buy a regular reissue with a six digit serial number.

    I'm that guy I just had a conversation with them yesterday about an axe I liked and asked if the CME stamp on back would effect resale and he said basically quite the opposite as they are rumored to have the best picks of the litter.....

  28. #28
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    TH was simply a name they had to give the top shelf Historics in 2015 to up the price.
    Buy a 2018 if you want the most accuracy to date.
    Be ready to trade that in around 2019-2020 though for even more accuracy.

  29. #29

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Makes the guitar sound more open or resonant. I have played one and the neck finished by hand is something special. Does it warrant a price difference? Itís up to you. At CME they have true historics so check them out!

    Quote Originally Posted by jam81 View Post
    Does wet sanding make a difference?

  30. #30

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by asapmaz View Post
    TH was simply a name they had to give the top shelf Historics in 2015 to up the price.
    Buy a 2018 if you want the most accuracy to date.
    Be ready to trade that in around 2019-2020 though for even more accuracy.
    Prior to 2015 what models were double carved and wet sanded by hand and shared the same specs as a TH? Not stirring crap I honestly don't know?

  31. #31

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    The CMEís are special

    Quote Originally Posted by 59shredandburn View Post
    I might be wrong but I believe the CME runs have CME in the serial number. That doesn't concern me any but some people are so anal, they won't buy a regular reissue with a six digit serial number.

    I'm that guy I just had a conversation with them yesterday about an axe I liked and asked if the CME stamp on back would effect resale and he said basically quite the opposite as they are rumored to have the best picks of the litter.....

  32. #32
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by 59shredandburn View Post
    Prior to 2015 what models were double carved and wet sanded by hand and shared the same specs as a TH? Not stirring crap I honestly don't know?
    None.
    But, do you honestly think double carving and wet sanding are things that would make buyers dish out $2k more for a historic if Gibson didn't introduce these features as part of a new "tier" of historics?
    When the market questioned the price hike, Gibson had to make a big deal out of these minor aspects and the color of the plastics to make people feel better.
    When the market got saturated with these so called TH's, Gibson simply made most of these features as part of the regular run and reintroduced a "lower price" to make people buy again.
    Then, they simply played the Brazilian card when the time was right to create another top tier for people to dish out another $4-5k.
    Nothing wrong with good marketing.

  33. #33

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by asapmaz View Post
    TH was simply a name they had to give the top shelf Historics in 2015 to up the price.
    Buy a 2018 if you want the most accuracy to date.
    Be ready to trade that in around 2019-2020 though for even more accuracy.
    Iím curious. How much more accurate can they get? I hear ppl say ďOh the carve isnít as accurate as it should.Ē Or the knobs arenít in the right spot or whatever. No 2 Original 1959LP are the same. So how can you compare (Original vs New) one to the other? As far as accuracy goes they used Brazilian. Will they use ďold growth mahoganyĒ to get CLOSER? They can never make an EXACT copy as regulations stop them from using same type paint, nitro, and glues....

  34. #34
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard1183 View Post
    I’m curious. How much more accurate can they get? I hear ppl say “Oh the carve isn’t as accurate as it should.” Or the knobs aren’t in the right spot or whatever. No 2 Original 1959LP are the same. So how can you compare (Original vs New) one to the other? As far as accuracy goes they used Brazilian. Will they use “old growth mahogany” to get CLOSER? They can never make an EXACT copy as regulations stop them from using same type paint, nitro, and glues....

    I think they're still not using brass thumb wheels on the bridge posts as far as I know. Not sure why.
    And, it'd be nice to see them slightly angle the tailpiece as in the vintage ones for that almost parallel abr/tailpiece look. They finally did carve the cutaway deeper as in the vintage ones, which was a nice change.
    Nitro would be a nice touch, too. HM refins, for example, have such a nice vintage vibe from a look and feel aspect.

  35. #35

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by asapmaz View Post
    I think they're still not using brass thumb wheels on the bridge posts as far as I know. Not sure why.
    And, it'd be nice to see them slightly angle the tailpiece as in the vintage ones for that almost parallel abr/tailpiece look. They finally did carve the cutaway deeper as in the vintage ones, which was a nice change.
    Nitro would be a nice touch, too. HM refins, for example, have such a nice vintage vibe from a look and feel aspect.
    I see your points? But why should Gibson bother making it completely accurate? Theyíre the only company that produces a replica of the original (I know Fender does as well? But Iím speaking generally to a product and outside of guitars) that ppl gripe on because itís not to the same spec. Look at the cars going retro. Having a look? But not exactly the same as yesteryear or anything else. You can change to brass thumb wheels pretty easily. But no matter what else they do? Tone wonít change much in comparison to what theyíre putting out right now. Itís all moot. Anything 2013 and later is good to go. If they used Braz and old growth mahogany? Itíd be for collector purposes only basically. I doubt the tone would change dramatically from production now as the electronics are new.

  36. #36
    Les Paul Forum Member Rayvyn's Avatar
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    I feel kinda dumb, I like both the TH and the 2018 59 (especially mine). Not to worry though, Iím sure Gibson will find another selling point and reissue the Truer 59 and then the truest 59 and the ultimate true-true, etc... The only response is find one you love regardless of everything else and forget the rest. Either that or save up for a legit burst but Iíd guess they vary too... IMHO of course...



    Let's Go Yankees!!


  37. #37
    Les Paul Forum Member jam81's Avatar
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Ok guys so I ended up getting the new Les Paul's with the Carmelita neck from 2018 and Brazilian rosewood. I got it at CME. I spent 2 hours with 5 different guitars and the one I picked was the one I liked the most. Now my issue is, when I got home and did and A/B test with my 2016 standard HP the difference is pretty much non-existent tone and playability wise I was expecting a huge difference for the price I paid. Am I overthinking it and creating false expectations? Or could it be I was lucky enough to have a really really good 2016 unit?

    As I have only owned these 2 guitars except for cheap versions in the past, I dont have enough experience to say "oh yeah there should be a huge difference between both due to the price"

  38. #38

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Dude! Congrats!

    You just need a little more time with it, the difference is there. It is entirely possible that your USA could be really nice too as I have a USA that I feel the same way about. Each guitar will have a way to get that last little bit of tone out and you're still used to another guitar.

    Don't have buyers remorse, you got the best one of five in one of the premier LP CS dealers in the world with a BRZ board.

  39. #39

    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Congratulations! We will need to see a photo of the guitar! They are definitely different guitars
    and yes you may have a great sounding 2016 HP standard! Iím sure there is something different sound wise between the custom and your HP.

    Quote Originally Posted by jam81 View Post
    Ok guys so I ended up getting the new Les Paul's with the Carmelita neck from 2018 and Brazilian rosewood. I got it at CME. I spent 2 hours with 5 different guitars and the one I picked was the one I liked the most. Now my issue is, when I got home and did and A/B test with my 2016 standard HP the difference is pretty much non-existent tone and playability wise I was expecting a huge difference for the price I paid. Am I overthinking it and creating false expectations? Or could it be I was lucky enough to have a really really good 2016 unit?

    As I have only owned these 2 guitars except for cheap versions in the past, I dont have enough experience to say "oh yeah there should be a huge difference between both due to the price"

  40. #40
    Les Paul Forum Member jam81's Avatar
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    Re: Looking to buy a TH vs a 2018 Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundermtn View Post
    Dude! Congrats!

    You just need a little more time with it, the difference is there. It is entirely possible that your USA could be really nice too as I have a USA that I feel the same way about. Each guitar will have a way to get that last little bit of tone out and you're still used to another guitar.

    Don't have buyers remorse, you got the best one of five in one of the premier LP CS dealers in the world with a BRZ board.
    Thanks. I definitely have buyers remorse due to the price more than anything. I so love the guitar but I want there to be a vast difference to support the price I guess.

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