• Guys, we've spent considerable money converting the Les Paul Forum to this new XenForo platform, and we have ongoing monthly operating expenses. THE "DONATIONS" TAB IS NOW WORKING, AND WE WOULD APPRECIATE ANY DONATIONS YOU CAN MAKE TO KEEP THE LES PAUL FORUM GOING! Thank you!

This current market for used historic sucks!

The Shifter

Active member
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
3,397
Even more perplexing is I never see them out in the wild even though I know many here use them in their local. I see a huge range of gear out there from pawn shop stuff to vintage gems to high dollar boutiques, but I'll be damned if I'm not the last guy I can remember gigging a historic Les Paul?

THIS times a billion. I've run into so many bands on tour over the years, and I can not recall a single instance where the guitar player had an R ANYTHING.

I would love to have that conversation. "Oh shit, you've got an R7, lemme check that thing out. Oh this, yeah it's my 2007 R8, I've got OX4's in it. Damn, you've put some miles on this thing. Sounds great."

Never.

I've said it before, a lot of younger bands, if there's guitar involved at all, are playing Fenders. Esp. offsets.
 

LeonC

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2002
Messages
799
So what $$ value if any, do you ascribe to having access to a musical instrument 24/7 for months and perhaps years? Doesn't the owner realize some value from having the guitar in his/her possession? I believe there is a value and it should be factored into the cost of ownership. Nothing is free.

Didn't answer the question.........

Yeah, I did. As I said, I think that many instruments don't go down in value, though some clearly do. This isn't a black/white situation nor is it a zero sum game. Sure, some instruments go down in value; some lose no value and some go up. Whether the owner derived any personal value by owning the piece of gear is irrelevant...it's all a question of what price the market will bear when it's time to sell. I.e., I don't know any buyers that ask the seller "how much value" he derived from it in order to determine a fair price. The seller's derived value isn't part of the equation. There's no law of economics stating that you must sell a guitar or amp, etc. for less than you paid because you "realized some value" from owning the guitar. If that was the case then the value of all gear would always go down as more "value was realized" from them...but that's simply NOT how the musical instrument market works, IME.
 

Ace139

Active member
Joined
May 29, 2003
Messages
1,759
I think the market is just plain over saturated. For me I really bit hard on these over the past 20 years or so. Started in ‘97 with ACE139 - finished with Nicky SN#04. (BTW that’s a ‘03 BOTB Stanley Burst in my avatar - I actually made about $2,200 when I sold that one) I got on the ride and - bought / sold / bought / kept / bought / sold . . .etc. each time a new more accurate “R” or variant came out. At this point I have finally gotten over falling for all the “NEW” marketing - and now just have the 1 Killer LP that’s perfect for me - and I don’t have any interest in buying anymore.

I wonder if others in the the key demo have had the same experience and arrived at the same place I have? If they have, that combined with the amount of available product would help explain the current state of used custom shop Gibson Guitars. It’s been a fun ride and wouldn’t change it - had a blast but I’m done.

Now Gretsch / Custom Shop Stephen Stern stuff - just getting acquainted :spabout
 

J T

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
10,501
THIS times a billion. I've run into so many bands on tour over the years, and I can not recall a single instance where the guitar player had an R ANYTHING.

I would love to have that conversation. "Oh shit, you've got an R7, lemme check that thing out. Oh this, yeah it's my 2007 R8, I've got OX4's in it. Damn, you've put some miles on this thing. Sounds great."

Never.

I've said it before, a lot of younger bands, if there's guitar involved at all, are playing Fenders. Esp. offsets.


Same here. All those bands that came in the studio most had Fenders. Fender, Fender, Fender. The few Gibsons that showed up were USA SGs and other USA LPs. Those guys just cant afford to lay out all that dough when they have to spend money to get to their next gig or, like, eat.

Never seen and R anything let alone vintage. Oh no. The exception was a session player with a 50's LP.
 

Big Al

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
14,537
I've seen plenty. I toured with mine and saw plenty on stage. I also used Fenders. I don't "invest" in guitars. I bought them to use, yet every single one of the 50 plus guitars I've aquired since '72 is worth more than I paid, including my Historics.
 

wait rose

New member
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Messages
22
Prices decline when supply goes up, a new high-end Gibson is built while an old one is not destroyed, and demand decreases daily 'cause our cohort continues push up daisies without equivalent replacement at the younger end. Unless of course we all agree to buy more guitars.
 

El Gringo

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,657
So what $$ value if any, do you ascribe to having access to a musical instrument 24/7 for months and perhaps years? Doesn't the owner realize some value from having the guitar in his/her possession? I believe there is a value and it should be factored into the cost of ownership. Nothing is free.
Darn tooting right , as my Uncle used to say (God Bless him ) "there is no free lunch"
 

El Gringo

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,657
To me it's absolutely crazy that people buy non vintage guitars and expect them to appreciate like a 50's Burst or a 50-65 Fender . It's not in the same ball park .To me they are meant to be played and ENJOYED , not to keep looking up Blue Book prices on a whatever year R9 to flip and make some coin to go out and start from scratch to buy another one to do the same thing over again -to me is insanity . I am just a working class stiff like most others that has music coursing thru my veins since first grade in a public school where first I learned the Violin and then the Cello and in high school picked up the guitar and have not put it down since and school taught me how to read music in both clefs . I owned a MXR script logo Dyna Comp and sold it like a fool because I did not like it -mistake ,then I had my first Strat (CBS) and sold that as well -another mistake ,which now I have learned my lesson from over 30 years ago that I am not repeating that mistake again .The reason why is because it takes me time to find what I like and I have to research the instrument in question in such a thorough and meticulous way to make sure it is right for me and in case I have to modify something like pickups (a lot of the time ) that over the course of figuring every nuance of a particular instrument that a bond attaches for me on a personal level and to even dare to think about separating from myself is such a foreign concept .Right now I am all about Les Paul's(4)and I do not see that changing in the foreseeable future because along with my Marshall 2555X and my Les Paul's I have found a tone that I have been searching my whole life for and I am not letting go of it for nothing . So I have all of these Fenders -5, 3 Fender Customs ,and 2 Fender USA reissues and they just sit on there stands because someday I might reach for them for whatever tune is going thru my head . I will not let anybody have my stuff , you should see the house full of pedals that I have stuffed in every nook and craney in my house and from time to time I will put one of them in my signal chain and rock out on it .To me it's all about options and choices ,which I am pretty darn lucky to have .So to each there own .
 

renderit

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
10,951
They are an investment.
Period.
If you love them.
It's awful nice to walk into your music room and gaze on it (or them), anticipate plugging in and deciding what (or not) to throw in the signal chain today. To have your own test bench if you want to try something new. You don't have to live vicariously through somebody else anymore. YOU are doing it man! THAT's an investment! It pays in spades. Not everything is about money.
 

AA00475Bassman

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
3,769
They are an investment.
Period.
If you love them.
It's awful nice to walk into your music room and gaze on it (or them), anticipate plugging in and deciding what (or not) to throw in the signal chain today. To have your own test bench if you want to try something new. You don't have to live vicariously through somebody else anymore. YOU are doing it man! THAT's an investment! It pays in spades. Not everything is about money.

Ren nailed it none of mine are in cases they are all looked at every day & some are played daily .
 
Last edited:

El Gringo

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,657
They are an investment.
Period.
If you love them.
It's awful nice to walk into your music room and gaze on it (or them), anticipate plugging in and deciding what (or not) to throw in the signal chain today. To have your own test bench if you want to try something new. You don't have to live vicariously through somebody else anymore. YOU are doing it man! THAT's an investment! It pays in spades. Not everything is about money.
Perfectly well said 100%. I envy you Ren because of your skill where you can and do work on your instruments. Myself, I don't trust . I do know what you mean about the "music room" and nothing beats it like you said to walk in there and gaze upon the beauty and wonder of it all .
 

LeonC

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2002
Messages
799
They are an investment.
Period.
If you love them.
It's awful nice to walk into your music room and gaze on it (or them), anticipate plugging in and deciding what (or not) to throw in the signal chain today. To have your own test bench if you want to try something new. You don't have to live vicariously through somebody else anymore. YOU are doing it man! THAT's an investment! It pays in spades. Not everything is about money.

I understand and agree with your point...up to the use of the term investment. I suspect this is just a difference in semantics or emphasis. Buying a guitar--to me--is not about making money. It's about getting a new tool with which to make music and enjoy my short time on this planet!! I don't really see them as investments.

But as for investments? Investing IS about money. I don't "invest" in things because I'm looking for personal fulfillment or enjoyment. I invest in things to make a return (money!) on my investment.

Since 1960, the only gear that turned out to be a good long term investment when compared to just "buying the US stock market" (see http://www.stockpickssystem.com/historical-rate-of-return/) was a late 50s (including 1960, of course) sunburst Les Paul. And that's it. Generally speaking buying other amps / guitars just hasn't been as consistently good an investment when it comes to ROI. Based on that site, if you took the 375 bucks that you'd spend on a burst and instead invested in the US Stock market in 1960 (and reinvested each year) would be worth about 127,000 today...so a burst looks like a very good investment.

I don't buy a lot of gear expecting to make a return...though I sure as hell hope for a lot of personal enjoyment from the guitars and amps I buy! If the day comes when I sell something...I may actually make a little money, and there have been times when I lose some and other times when I just broke even. But I usually still feel pretty good about it because I derived some personal enjoyment and satisfaction from having gotten to try, compare and use the item.

Of course...some guitarists can (and do) make money buying/selling gear, relatively consistently. For most of us, from what I can tell, there are probably a lot better ways to make a buck, i.e., much better ways to earn a living than buying a piece of gear and hoping to sell it for a profit...but money is made all the time...historically, it's just not a great investment, near as I can tell.
 
Last edited:

renderit

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
10,951
I understand and agree with your point...up to the use of the term investment. I suspect this is just a difference in semantics or emphasis. Buying a guitar--to me--is not about making money. It's about getting a new tool with which to make music and enjoy my short time on this planet!! I don't really see them as investments.

But as for investments? Investing IS about money. I don't "invest" in things because I'm looking for personal fulfillment or enjoyment. I invest in things to make a return (money!) on my investment.

Since 1960, the only gear that turned out to be a good long term investment when compared to just "buying the US stock market" (see http://www.stockpickssystem.com/historical-rate-of-return/) was a late 50s (including 1960, of course) sunburst Les Paul. And that's it. Generally speaking buying other amps / guitars just hasn't been as consistently good an investment when it comes to ROI. Based on that site, if you took the 375 bucks that you'd spend on a burst and instead invested in the US Stock market in 1960 (and reinvested each year) would be worth about 127,000 today...so a burst looks like a very good investment.

I don't buy a lot of gear expecting to make a return...though I sure as hell hope for a lot of personal enjoyment from the guitars and amps I buy! If the day comes when I sell something...I may actually make a little money, and there have been times when I lose some and other times when I just broke even. But I usually still feel pretty good about it because I derived some personal enjoyment and satisfaction from having gotten to try, compare and use the item.

Of course...some guitarists can (and do) make money buying/selling gear, relatively consistently. For most of us, from what I can tell, there are probably a lot better ways to make a buck, i.e., much better ways to earn a living than buying a piece of gear and hoping to sell it for a profit...but money is made all the time...historically, it's just not a great investment, near as I can tell.

INVESTMENT IN YOUR WELL-BEING is the point! That is worth more TO YOU than money. And actually buys you what money cannot. If not, I feel sorry for you. The LITERAL you.
 

LeonC

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2002
Messages
799
INVESTMENT IN YOUR WELL-BEING is the point! That is worth more TO YOU than money. And actually buys you what money cannot. If not, I feel sorry for you. The LITERAL you.

Okay...so, semantics it is, LOL.
 

AA00475Bassman

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
3,769
The same with my 12 beauties as they are all on stands breathing the same air as I do , and it is a sight to behold !

Yep thats a big part of my guitar addiction the visual amp & guitar vibe love it ! I do have a guitar room really happy with the turn out of the room . I also have my Historic guitars in stands around the house really gives me great satisfaction .
 

omni43

Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2016
Messages
50
I doubt that any of these guitars are going to go up in price from where they are now. These guitars are never going to be an investment. If you need to dump one for the money then take the hit; it's not going to get better.
 
Top