• Guys, we've spent considerable money converting the Les Paul Forum to this new XenForo platform, and we have ongoing monthly operating expenses. THE "DONATIONS" TAB IS NOW WORKING, AND WE WOULD APPRECIATE ANY DONATIONS YOU CAN MAKE TO KEEP THE LES PAUL FORUM GOING! Thank you!

The Fabled Les Paul/Gibson tuning issues?

MeHereNow

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
677
Yeah..

people with an ounce of sense play straighttraveltostringpost guitars.. like a strat.

then keep hitting and rolling off the volume control because it's to close..
can't select the neck pu and bridge pu together.. or all 3 together..
can't control the tone for all 3 pu independently cause there's only 2 tone pots
need a 'string tree' to keep the E and B string in the nut and have downward tension so these string won't flabber in the nut causing buzzzzz
then have those same 2 strings skreeching and pinging because of the metal to metal friction of string to stringtree
can't play a good pitched doublestop cause the tension of the bend will cause the tremolo to dive a bit and detune all strings
will have ghostnoting or reverberation from the tremolosprings in the back
will have the neck shifting sideways in the neckpocket
will 'fret out' at low action on the higher registers of the fretboard because of the 7.25" or 9.5" radii
used to have the entire neck removed to adjust the trussrod
or the whole front to maitenance the electric components

Then, moving on to a Tele:
or PRS:
or any other fing guitar..

Get it?

Every guitar has 'design faults'


And NASCAR.. that you don't need to be a NASCAR driver to recognize if your wheel is not balanced..
Maybe so.. But you do need to be a good NASCAR driver to get the race finished or won with a unbalanced tire..
 

JimFog

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
182
Every guitar has 'design faults'

Absolutely true.

But it seems that on this forum, getting most members to admit their beloved Les Paul is anything less than perfect is near sacrilege.

They're just instruments, people. Tools. With advantages AND challenges.

Doesn't mean we have to love them any less.
 

MeHereNow

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
677
Absolutely true.

But it seems that on this forum, getting most members to admit their beloved Les Paul is anything less than perfect is near sacrilege.

They're just instruments, people. Tools. With advantages AND challenges.

Doesn't mean we have to love them any less.

We love our Les Paul's indeed.
That's why some of the worlds most passionate LP lovers started The Les Paul Forum in 1999.
So it's not really hard to get to grips with that if their belovedLes Paul's are put away as seriously faulted guitars by some you'll get passionate replies is it?
If someone does'nt like Les Pauls...
Then why register on a Les Paul Forum?
 

JimFog

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
182
If someone does'nt like Les Pauls...
Then why register on a Les Paul Forum?

I think you're making a big mistake in assuming that just because someone is realistic about plusses and minuses of any instrument, that they don't like it........or can't be passionate about it and even love it.

It's not a zero sum game.

Hell, my wife sure has presented me with "challenges" on a regular basis for 27+ years..........but I still love her more than I even did on the day we met. In fact, it's having a clear-eyed view of who she really is, faults and all, that just makes our relationship better.

It's the same with guitars, IMO.
 

MeHereNow

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
677
JimFog;2810840[COLOR=#ff0000 said:
]I think you're making a big mistake in assuming that just because someone is realistic about plusses and minuses of any instrument, that they don't like it[/COLOR]........or can't be passionate about it and even love it.

It's not a zero sum game.

Hell, my wife sure has presented me with "challenges" on a regular basis for 27+ years..........but I still love her more than I even did on the day we met. In fact, it's having a clear-eyed view of who she really is, faults and all, that just makes our relationship better.

It's the same with guitars, IMO.

Sorry, it may be good enough for you and so very many but that really doesn’t mean they’re stable, it just means that personally you are ok with a little more deviation from optimum than some people. I mean c’mon just admit it, the design flaw is obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense and all of these purist claiming that because they’re working musicians so that then means they have some special knowledge is as absurd as saying that you need to be a NASCAR driver to recognize if your wheel is not balanced. This is just common physics and is why designs with straight string through don’t require the same type of high maintenance as do the traditional 3 x 3 deigns. Even Gibson came out with a Custom 346 to provide Paul Jackson with the higher bar for tuning stability that he desired. I guess he just didn’t know how to set up his guitar or didn’t know any professional luthiers. 😒

But if someone told you that your wife's has a "design flaw that is obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense and all of these purist claiming that because you’re in a 27 year relationship that then means you have some special knowledge is absurd"..

then..
Would'nt you defend your wife? :salude

now read drewbarries 2nd post ever on the lpf again..

What's your "assumption" then?
Or no.. wait.. forget that.

Let's wait and hear from himself
 

Texas Blues

Active member
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
4,641
I guess [by your standards] I don't have "an ounce of sense" since this supposed design flaw you speak of is not obvious. What is it?


Considering that my Les Pauls [and all the ones I have borrowed] have stayed in tune just fine for over 40 years, I think you are way off base here.
Maybe you don't know how to string and tune a guitar? :hmm


Guitar Center comes to mind.

But I understand.

I would reckon that at least 99% of all guitar owners have no clue how to tune a guitar.
 

drewbarries

New member
Joined
Aug 25, 2018
Messages
5
But if someone told you that your wife's has a "design flaw that is obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense and all of these purist claiming that because you’re in a 27 year relationship that then means you have some special knowledge is absurd"..

then..
Would'nt you defend your wife? :salude

now read drewbarries 2nd post ever on the lpf again..

What's your "assumption" then?
Or no.. wait.. forget that.

Let's wait and hear from himself
You know your right I was wrong and Im sorry, I was in a crappy mood because I shared what’s been my experience and challenged folks to show me with a video demo and was ridiculed with stupid GIFs and ultimately kicked off the largest Gibson FB group for arguing with people about this very matter and then telling off one of the admins. So let me be more clear, yes I have had good experience with bone nuts combined with graphite and was able to maintain tuning within a reasonable tolerance, my preference of bone has been more challenging than with tektoid or nylon. I understand the passion because the reality is that tons of people play them and sound great with apparently no significany problems but maybe we can all agree that what is trivial to one may not be to another. I apologize if I was off base and implied you have no common sense if feel strongly that there is no issue whatsoever, that was uncalled for. I was not very tactful and a bit rude. I was just trying to say that the break angle is obviously a place of compound tension and higher friction than is necessary when compared to other designs and how that is observable just by inspection without even being a guitar player, it’s just physics.

I am an imperfect person, my wife is an imperfect person and you know what, we all are imperfect, each our own ways. One of my character flaws is that I am extremely OCD about tuning stability and because I like to split the difference between up and down the neck temperaments it really does come down to the gnats ass and staying there. I know there are so many great great rock guitarists that use digital tuners and I wish I sounded a tiny fraction as great they do.

So let me offer an olive branch and just close by saying I love, love, love my Les Pauls and for most of the music I love there is no substitute. Any claims I made about tuning instability are definitely manageable with a combination of nut materials, setup and lubtication. I’m currently in the process of changing both of my LPs to nylon for this reason. There is no uncertainty in my mind that it is absolutely possible to be a patron to any number of imperfect or high maintenance products and still acknowledge their respective limitations and so just like the other person said these things are not mutually exclusive. FYI, if you’d like to learn more about why tuners don’t give you the best up and down the neck tuning check out Andy’s video where he explains it perfectly. Note - crybaby keyboardist that say that all studios make everyone use hi girls tuners and insist I do too need not waste their time, just move on....

https://www.shutupandplay.ca/
 

drewbarries

New member
Joined
Aug 25, 2018
Messages
5
But if someone told you that your wife's has a "design flaw that is obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense and all of these purist claiming that because you’re in a 27 year relationship that then means you have some special knowledge is absurd"..

then..
Would'nt you defend your wife? :salude

now read drewbarries 2nd post ever on the lpf again..

What's your "assumption" then?
Or no.. wait.. forget that.

Let's wait and hear from himself

But if someone told you that your wife's has a "design flaw that is obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense and all of these purist claiming that because you’re in a 27 year relationship that then means you have some special knowledge is absurd"..

then..
Would'nt you defend your wife? :salude

now read drewbarries 2nd post ever on the lpf again..

What's your "assumption" then?
Or no.. wait.. forget that.

Let's wait and hear from himself

You know your right I was wrong and Im sorry, I was in a crappy mood because I shared what’s been my experience and challenged folks to show me with a video demo and was ridiculed with stupid GIFs and ultimately kicked off the largest Gibson FB group for arguing with people about this very matter and then telling off one of the admins. So let me be more clear, yes I have had good experience with bone nuts combined with graphite and was able to maintain tuning within a reasonable tolerance, my preference of bone has been more challenging than with tektoid or nylon. I do understand the passion because the reality is that tons of people play them and sound great and with apparently no significant problems. Maybe we can all agree that what is trivial to one may not be to another. I apologize if I was off base and implied you have no common senss and that was rude and uncalled for. I was not very tactful and It was wrong. I was just trying to say that the break angle is obviously a place of compound tension and higher friction than is necessary when compared to other designs and how that is observable just by inspection without even being a guitar player, it’s just physics.

I am an imperfect person, my wife is an imperfect person and you know what, we all are imperfect, each in our own ways. One of my character flaws is that I am extremely OCD about tuning stability and because I like to split the difference between up and down the neck temperaments it really does come down to the gnats ass and staying there. I know there are so many great great rock guitarists that use digital tuners and I wish I sounded a tiny fraction as great as they do.

So let me offer an olive branch and just close by saying I love, love, love my Les Pauls and for most of the music I love there is no substitute. Any claims I made about tuning instability are definitely manageable with a combination of nut materials, setup and lubrication. I’m currently in the process of changing both of my LPs to nylon for this reason. There is no uncertainty in my mind that it is absolutely possible to be a huge patron and fan to any number of imperfect or high maintenance products and still acknowledge their respective limitations and so just like the other person said these things are not mutually exclusive. I own and love a wide variety of guitars and like a lot of people want one of each.

FYI, if you’d like to learn more about why tuners don’t give you the best up and down the neck tuning check out Andy’s video where he explains it perfectly. Note - crybaby keyboardist that say that all studios make everyone use digital tuners and insist I do too need not waste their time, just move on....

https://www.shutupandplay.ca/
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
But it seems that on this forum, getting most members to admit their beloved Les Paul is anything less than perfect is near sacrilege.

I'll admit mine is less than perfect.


normal_917_p43060.jpg


But it has no tuning flaws or problems.
Same with every other Les Paul I use.
Maybe I'm just lucky. :spabout
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
You know your right I was wrong and Im sorry, I was in a crappy mood because I shared what’s been my experience and challenged folks to show me with a video demo and was ridiculed with stupid GIFs and ultimately kicked off the largest Gibson FB group for arguing with people about this very matter and then telling off one of the admins. So let me be more clear, yes I have had good experience with bone nuts combined with graphite and was able to maintain tuning within a reasonable tolerance, my preference of bone has been more challenging than with tektoid or nylon. I do understand the passion because the reality is that tons of people play them and sound great and with apparently no significant problems. Maybe we can all agree that what is trivial to one may not be to another. I apologize if I was off base and implied you have no common senss and that was rude and uncalled for. I was not very tactful and It was wrong. I was just trying to say that the break angle is obviously a place of compound tension and higher friction than is necessary when compared to other designs and how that is observable just by inspection without even being a guitar player, it’s just physics.

I am an imperfect person, my wife is an imperfect person and you know what, we all are imperfect, each in our own ways. One of my character flaws is that I am extremely OCD about tuning stability and because I like to split the difference between up and down the neck temperaments it really does come down to the gnats ass and staying there. I know there are so many great great rock guitarists that use digital tuners and I wish I sounded a tiny fraction as great as they do.

So let me offer an olive branch and just close by saying I love, love, love my Les Pauls and for most of the music I love there is no substitute. Any claims I made about tuning instability are definitely manageable with a combination of nut materials, setup and lubrication. I’m currently in the process of changing both of my LPs to nylon for this reason. There is no uncertainty in my mind that it is absolutely possible to be a huge patron and fan to any number of imperfect or high maintenance products and still acknowledge their respective limitations and so just like the other person said these things are not mutually exclusive. I own and love a wide variety of guitars and like a lot of people want one of each.

FYI, if you’d like to learn more about why tuners don’t give you the best up and down the neck tuning check out Andy’s video where he explains it perfectly. Note - crybaby keyboardist that say that all studios make everyone use digital tuners and insist I do too need not waste their time, just move on....

https://www.shutupandplay.ca/


:salude and/or :2cool

:peace2
 

JimFog

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
182
But it has no tuning flaws or problems.
Same with every other Les Paul I use.
Maybe I'm just lucky. :spabout

Tom,

That's gorgeous. A lot of history there!

Serious, non-trolling question......because I know you have more knowledge of guitars than I could even conceive of, and totally respect that, but I admit I don't know your history.

How much and how often do you gig your Les Pauls? I'm not assuming that you don't, really just asking.

Because, in my experience (playing out is what I've done for a living for the past 25-30 years), the real test of tuning stability on any guitar, Les Paul or not, is how it behaves on 3-4 hour gigs on a consistent basis. I've had instruments that I used in the studio and at home and were absolutely fine, but just could NOT cut it, tuning-wise, in a live environment. Many, many of them were Gibsons.

I'll also concede that what you're used to playing, or grew up with, has a lot to do with it. I was a stone Strat/Tele guy. People bitch about keeping a vintage Strat trem in tune, or the control layout........and I can navigate that in my sleep at this point, no problem.

But, I'm all-in now as a Gibson player. You'll have to pry the Trad, 335 or Flying V from my cold, dead fingers. So, don't think I'm a hater. With some negatives, there are also tons of positives, which win the day to me.

But the tuning thing? It's a thing.......really.

Just to finish, I'll tell you guys a funny story..........I was on a festival gig last summer.......the headliner was an act with a Les Paul god all of you (us!) rightfully worship (also a member here, so I won't out him). Backstage, before we went on, he was nice enough to come over and introduce himself and commented that he liked my 335. I said "Thanks, I love it.....but it's being temperamental right now". He gave me a knowing look and said "Tuning, right? Gibson-itis!! But that tone is sure worth it, isn't it?"

I absolutely had to agree.
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
Tom,

Serious, non-trolling question......because I know you have more knowledge of guitars than I could even conceive of, and totally respect that, but I admit I don't know your history.

How much and how often do you gig your Les Pauls? I'm not assuming that you don't, really just asking.

I'm definitely not a pro or full time player. I'd say we average a few gigs a month. Some of those are now down to two one hour sets, but we still do many that are three one hour sets. And on my bi-annual Germany excursions I get in 4 - 8 gigs in about 12 days.
I tune to start the night and virtually never need tuning again. And I certainly do bend strings a lot, although rarely more than two frets worth of bend. But bending strings in solos [and some other parts] is pretty constant on every song.

Like I said, maybe I'm just lucky. :ganz
 

MeHereNow

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
677
I'm definitely not a pro or full time player. I'd say we average a few gigs a month. Some of those are now down to two one hour sets, but we still do many that are three one hour sets. And on my bi-annual Germany excursions I get in 4 - 8 gigs in about 12 days.
I tune to start the night and virtually never need tuning again. And I certainly do bend strings a lot, although rarely more than two frets worth of bend. But bending strings in solos [and some other parts] is pretty constant on every song.

Like I said, maybe I'm just lucky. :ganz

I'm on the lucky bandwagon too then!
But as stated so many times before, the guitar's allround proper functionality (be it strat, tele ,prs, lp or whatever) is mostly all down to the player/operator of the guitar.
On my Gibsons and other gibson type guitars with 3x3 tuner setup, i made the nut "notched", meaning that all the strings lie ON the nutslots just enough to keep m there.
The frictionpoint is minimal as is the contact with the nut.
Also, i have the slots slightly angled toward the tuners and the nutslots gradually widened towards the end of the nut.

I made a paintdrawing to visualize what i'm nutting about..
Hope it helps a bit.

meherenownuttalk.jpg
 

Black58

New member
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
10,139
I'm definitely not a pro or full time player. I'd say we average a few gigs a month. Some of those are now down to two one hour sets, but we still do many that are three one hour sets. And on my bi-annual Germany excursions I get in 4 - 8 gigs in about 12 days.
I tune to start the night and virtually never need tuning again. And I certainly do bend strings a lot, although rarely more than two frets worth of bend. But bending strings in solos [and some other parts] is pretty constant on every song.

Like I said, maybe I'm just lucky. :ganz

Curious about something, Caretaker. .. Are your Lesters on the lighter side of average, or heavier? :hmm
 

JimFog

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
182
I'm definitely not a pro or full time player. I'd say we average a few gigs a month. Some of those are now down to two one hour sets, but we still do many that are three one hour sets. And on my bi-annual Germany excursions I get in 4 - 8 gigs in about 12 days.
I tune to start the night and virtually never need tuning again. And I certainly do bend strings a lot, although rarely more than two frets worth of bend. But bending strings in solos [and some other parts] is pretty constant on every song.

Like I said, maybe I'm just lucky. :ganz

Cool. So you know what I'm talking about, even if we don't agree. That's fine.

Everyone has different experiences. Doesn't mean I think yours is wrong, or mine is 100% right, or vice-versa.

I just didn't like seeing some folks being dismissed as "not knowing how to tune" or full of shit..........any more than I think it's fair to categorize anyone on the other side as having lousy ears.
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
Curious about something, Caretaker. .. Are your Lesters on the lighter side of average, or heavier? :hmm

What's average? :ganz

They are all over the place, and I don't notice any differences, even though there are some. :)
 

Black58

New member
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
10,139
What's average? :ganz

They are all over the place, and I don't notice any differences, even though there are some. :)

:rofl ... Yeah, I hear ya. .. I was just pondering whether a lighter or heavier guitar holds tune better, and over time/circumstances. :ganz
 

MeHereNow

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
677
I'm on the lucky bandwagon too then!
But as stated so many times before, the guitar's allround proper functionality (be it strat, tele ,prs, lp or whatever) is mostly all down to the player/operator of the guitar.
On my Gibsons and other gibson type guitars with 3x3 tuner setup, i made the nut "notched", meaning that all the strings lie ON the nutslots just enough to keep m there.
The frictionpoint is minimal as is the contact with the nut.
Also, i have the slots slightly angled toward the tuners and the nutslots gradually widened towards the end of the nut.

I made a paintdrawing to visualize what i'm nutting about..
Hope it helps a bit.

View attachment 8253

Srry, post got hung up a bit..
Thnx to forumfixer T.Allen now visible.:salude
 

JimFog

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
182
I was just pondering whether a lighter or heavier guitar holds tune better, and over time/circumstances.

Generally, with good setup, and all other things being equally, I've found that thicker necked guitars tend to be a wee bit more stable. That's not 100% across the board, but a trend I've noticed.

Of course, I'm sure someone will jump in soon to tell me how wrong I am!!! :rofl :rofl :rofl
 
Top