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  1. #1
    Les Paul Forum Member ScumbackSpeakers's Avatar
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    NOCD: 67/68 Marshall Straight Cab!

    Bought this off another forum member a few weeks back. Had a few hardware issues, needed new 2BA T-nuts for the baffle board, some new cheesehead 2BA x 1" speaker bolts, new bolts and T-nuts for the metal handles (narrow flange version, pre 1968), and some speakers.

    I dug into my pile and decided to go with a mix of two T1234 G12H30's (102/3 75hz Pulsonic cones) on top, and two T1460 G12H30 (102/14 55hz Pulsonic cones) on the bottom, all 8 ohm.

    Wired it up with fresh wire, and tested it out with my 71 JMP 50w at about 8 on the volume knob.

    Pretty intense tone from these old original H30's, but you'll need to turn down the treble and presence a bit from G12M models as they have more high end and bass to them.

    I flogged it for about 30 minutes...yeah, that was fun!

    Last edited by ScumbackSpeakers; 12-28-17 at 03:19 PM.

  2. #2
    Les Paul Forum Member Tubes 'n Wood's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Nice!
    T 'n W

    2002 R8
    1969 Fender Twin Reverb
    1969 Fender Vibrolux Reverb
    1968 Gibson Hawk

  3. #3
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Nice cab, but I doubt it's 67.
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  4. #4
    Les Paul Forum Member ScumbackSpeakers's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by F-Hole View Post
    Nice cab, but I doubt it's 67.
    Logo is broken, and I believe a replacement. The inside bracing is 67, and it has the narrow flange metal handles, which ended in early 68.

    I have a 67 stack here already, and it has the same brace at the bottom of the baffle board as they do, with Nov 67 G12M 20w in the slant.

    So it's definitely 67 or early 68, but I only had PUlsonic cone H30's from 1971-74 to put into it, so it's a mutt cab, but it sounds pretty good!
    Last edited by ScumbackSpeakers; 12-01-17 at 07:30 PM.

  5. #5
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by ScumbackSpeakers View Post
    So it's definitely 67 or early 68......
    OK.
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  6. #6
    Les Paul Forum Member rockinlespaul's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Congrats!

    F-hole.... I'm pretty sure Jim knows what he has. Probably more than anybody else here.
    Y2K R8 Blacktop + Blockhead First Born = TONE

  7. #7
    Les Paul Forum Member ScumbackSpeakers's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by rockinlespaul View Post
    Congrats!

    F-hole.... I'm pretty sure Jim knows what he has. Probably more than anybody else here.
    Why thank you, rlp! I've got a few quads of old speakers here still in boxes. As I find appropriate cabs I'll scoop them up and fill them in with the ones I have left. Merry Xmas to you!

  8. #8
    Les Paul Forum Member rockinlespaul's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by ScumbackSpeakers View Post
    Why thank you, rlp! I've got a few quads of old speakers here still in boxes. As I find appropriate cabs I'll scoop them up and fill them in with the ones I have left. Merry Xmas to you!
    We may not be best buds or anything lol, but I gotta give credit where credit is due and I for one, as well as many others here too I'm sure, know that you are a expert at these things and certainly know what your talking about.

    I hope you have a wonderful Xmas as well Jim! Enjoy your holidays.
    Y2K R8 Blacktop + Blockhead First Born = TONE

  9. #9
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by rockinlespaul View Post
    F-hole.... I'm pretty sure Jim knows what he has. Probably more than anybody else here.
    OK......if you say so. I've no interest in a pissing contest, but that's not from 67.
    Last edited by F-Hole; 12-07-17 at 06:26 AM.
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  10. #10
    Les Paul Forum Member deytookerjaabs's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Well, nonetheless, it looks like it's been road hard in a good way, congrats!

  11. #11
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
    Well, nonetheless, it looks like it's been road hard in a good way, congrats!
    Agreed, it looks awesome.......
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  12. #12
    Les Paul Forum Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    I wish I new how to date mine. A cab, no tears, all original parts/speakers minus castors. The tolex is rough on the bottom as a result but this late 60's basketweave cab is in remarkable condition. Sounds great.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  13. #13
    Les Paul Forum Member ScumbackSpeakers's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by F-Hole View Post
    OK......if you say so. I've no interest in a pissing contest, but that's not from 67.
    Not interested in a pissing contest, yet you posted anyway. Over the course of the last 20 years of collecting old basketweave cabs
    with metal handles, I've owned about 60 or more of these, but I'm sure I'm not infallible.

    Maybe you'd like to provide a few good pics of your 1967 Marshall cabs on the inside and outside, with handle measurements
    so I can compare?

  14. #14
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by ScumbackSpeakers View Post
    Maybe you'd like to provide a few good pics of your 1967 Marshall cabs on the inside and outside, with handle measurements
    so I can compare?
    OK, I'll snap some photos tomorrow. I hope we both learn something.
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  15. #15
    Les Paul Forum Member corpse's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Sometimes I think John needs to get a good definition of the word "moderator".
    I think in the interest of true learning if you see something you know is wrong, spare us the drama, and show us the facts John.
    I am not taking a cheap shot- you have done this before.

  16. #16
    Les Paul Forum Member renderit's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    And he's usually right. As in,,,,I don't remember when he's been wrong? Hey look, I don't take correction well either, but I came to realize that even though I know my 62 VW Beetle inside and out that there are probably a few peeps out there that know more than I.

    We are all friends here!

    When I get the dimes needed I am getting me some of these Scumbacks™©℞ for a cab of mine. With a name like Scumback™©℞ they gots to be gooder!


  17. #17
    Les Paul Forum Member ourmaninthenorth's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by corpse View Post
    Sometimes I think John needs to get a good definition of the word "moderator".
    I think in the interest of true learning if you see something you know is wrong, spare us the drama, and show us the facts John.
    I am not taking a cheap shot- you have done this before.
    I didn't realise John was a moderator.
    Shakespeare walks into a pub, the Landlord says "get out, you're Bard"

  18. #18
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by corpse View Post
    Sometimes I think John needs to get a good definition of the word "moderator".
    I think in the interest of true learning if you see something you know is wrong, spare us the drama, and show us the facts John.
    I am not taking a cheap shot- you have done this before.
    I'm not a moderator, nor do I want to be.

    I honestly thought my original post was innocent enough. The cab's just not from 67, it's really that simple. There's no "drama", nor do I want there to be.

    I didn't post to piss Scumback off.......I don't know him. Six months here or there on a cab, who really gives a fuck?
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  19. #19
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by ScumbackSpeakers View Post
    Maybe you'd like to provide a few good pics of your 1967 Marshall cabs on the inside and outside, with handle measurements so I can compare?
    Given this thread has taken an unintended turn.....some info as requested. I'll refrain from posting comments in future, so as not to offend sensibilities.

    Marshall didn't use basketweave grill cloth in 1967. They were still using pinstripe well into 1968 (I have other early 68 pinstripe pieces). Basketweave was introduced mid Q2 1968 (yes, I have some of that too).

    Here's a cab that, until today, has never been opened since it left the factory. It came from the original owner, and I have the matching bottom cab. The speaker date codes are all October 1967, and all match. It has the thin side handles. This is what a 1967 cab looks like.

    Peace, out.........









    Last edited by F-Hole; 12-18-17 at 11:25 AM.
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  20. #20
    Les Paul Forum Member ourmaninthenorth's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by F-Hole View Post
    I'm not a moderator, nor do I want to be.

    I honestly thought my original post was innocent enough. The cab's just not from 67, it's really that simple. There's no "drama", nor do I want there to be.

    I didn't post to piss Scumback off.......I don't know him. Six months here or there on a cab, who really gives a fuck?
    Personally I can see me arse about a 6 hour discrepancy..it comes with this turf.

    We can all pretend differently, but I think we all know that this stuff matters, it's in the DNA of our thing.

    That's my 5000th post...not that I'm counting or anything....

    Shakespeare walks into a pub, the Landlord says "get out, you're Bard"

  21. #21
    Les Paul Forum Member ScumbackSpeakers's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by F-Hole View Post
    OK, I'll snap some photos tomorrow. I hope we both learn something.
    Saw your pics, obviously a 412 cab with pinstripe cloth is 67 or earlier. Your handles are the same size as mine,
    the bracing on the bottom of the baffle board is the same as well.

    I've got an old basketweave slant here, used to be owned by Queen, then George Lynch of Dokken, and some band named "Nazgul"
    from all of the stencils on the back. It's got late 67 (Oct/November) G12M 20w T1221's in it...but it has basketweave cloth, not
    pinstripe cloth.

    Here's the insides of a 68 slant I restored 10 years ago...serial #: 29999



    Here's the insides of a 67 slant I restored 11 years ago...it had the salt & pepper basketweave cloth, not pinstripe.


    My conclusion is that (typical Marshall) there was the usual lengthy transition period from pinstripe to basketweave
    cloth, narrow flange metal handles to wide flange metal handles, G12M 20w to G12M 25w, etc, etc.

    I've never seen a 68 cab with the side to side bracing on the baffle board, or with narrow flange metal
    handles, so the bracing and the narrow flange metal handles are kind of the determining factor for me
    on the age since I have the other ones (minus the pinstripe cloth). My understanding is that the serial #'s on the
    cabs aren't sequential for dating purposes, and some of my own cabs have serial #'s before and after the 68
    slant's 29999 and they're from 69-72.

    My restoration thread on that 68 slant is here on the TGP forum if anyone cares to see it.

    https://www.thegearpage.net/board/in...-heart.214442/

    Basically I think this comes down to pinstripe cloth is definitely 67 or earlier, and basketweave started sneaking in
    at the end of 67 since it's definitely in the 1968 Marshall catalogs.

    Thanks for the pics, F-Hole!

  22. #22
    Les Paul Forum Member corpse's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Now THAT's what i am talking about. Thank you.
    When I am excited about the only 1968 Black faced Deluxe Reverb that I found by all means point out that none were made and you can tell by the transformer, blah, blah, blah... We cannot be afraid of bubble busting here- I look at this place as an archive, maybe the only one for this type of tribal knowledge.
    John you are a wealth of knowledge and I respect that immensely. When F-Hole reappeared I posted that I was very glad you were back.
    Now get busy writing the definitive Marshall Book.
    Is it correct that the grill cloth cab from Taxi Cab seats?

  23. #23
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by corpse View Post
    Is it correct that the grill cloth cab from Taxi Cab seats?
    Not quite. It was used as headliner in a couple of models, as was the white Vynair cloth used on the earlier Marshalls. I almost bought a wreck of a car just because it had the right cloth headliner......but the 400 mile drive and having to buy the whole car (or pay them to re-wreck it) put me off. That was over a decade ago.

    As an aside, the brown pinstripe cloth that has appeared occasionally wasn't used by Marshall. A full bolt of it was found by a vintage Marshall dealer in the 90's at a provincial auction close to his home. He sold bits and pieces but most of it went to Music Ground, who originally tried to sand it back and recolour it grey. It didn't work out too well and you can see that in some of their early fakes. Later, they just used the brown as it didn't take to the recolouring process very well. That's when the "brown cloth was original" myth started. Interestingly, the Marshall factory address was on the brown paper around the bolt of cloth, with "return" written on it. Seems that the wrong colour was sent to Marshall and the cloth was subsequently returned.
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  24. #24
    Les Paul Forum Member becks bolero's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    great thread, thanks for all the useful info!

    I have a stripped/refin straight 4x12 I have always thought was a '68; how would I tel if it's indeed a '68?

    it has basketweave/cane grill, but may not be original. metal handles

    thx!
    "First off, nobody cares if you know how to play scales. Nobody gives a shit if you have good technique or not. It's whether you have feelings that you want to express with music, that's what counts, really." -Neil Young

  25. #25
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    I very much doubt a cab with November 67 codes would have left the factory in 67. More likely a quarter or so behind, which would make yours a well into 68.

    It's also likely that your 20w 1221's are actually 25w, the formers were upgraded a few months before the stickers were changed, so you'll find 25w formers in post-October 67 greenbacks despite them being marked 20w on the stickers. White former is 20w, brown former is 25w. Brian Harding is the go-to guy on the minutiae of speaker label/former cross-over.

    I agree that you'd expect to see basketweave cabs specified in the 68 catalogue, the catalogues were issued in March each year (with new pricing for the start of the next financial year). I wouldn't place too much store in the accuracy of the catalogues themselves though, they frequently contained pictures of cabs and amps that were never put into production (e.g. the 18w panel layout in the '66 catalogue was never put into production but was, iroinically, used as the basis for the layout on a run of fake panels). In the same way, the Rose Morris catalogue from 68 shows basketweave cabs with block logos, yet I don't know anybody who's ever seen one. Better not to rely on catalogues as the basis for either model accuracy or dating.

    In short, pinstripe = 1967, basketweave = 1968.........and later than Oct 67 1221's marked 20w are more likely to be 25w, despite what the label says.
    Last edited by F-Hole; 12-20-17 at 07:21 AM.
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  26. #26
    Les Paul Forum Member ourmaninthenorth's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Truly excellent thread Gentlemen.

    Well played.
    Shakespeare walks into a pub, the Landlord says "get out, you're Bard"

  27. #27
    Les Paul Forum Member ScumbackSpeakers's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    F-Hole: I'm aware of the white former 20w vs tan colored former 25w change. I checked mine when I got it 7 years ago, they're white. Others I've had from 68 pm were tan. As for a cab with Oct/November 67 speaker date codes leaving the factory a full quarter later, I doubt that. While Marshall was moving some amps, I would surmise that they didn't have a 3-4 month backlog of orders then.

    The 20w white formers sound different (better) than the tan 25w models, IMO, which is why they're so sought after.

    As for everything else Marshall & Celestion there really are no hard/set deadlines or time frames for model # changes, and it was always "specifications subject to change without notice".

    I put two 73/74 G12H30 55 hz 8 ohm speakers in this cab, T1460 frame codes, and they've got 102 014 Pulsonic cones in them, which should have been long gone by then, but that's what's in those Rola Celestion stickered frames.

    If there's one thing I've learned over the last 20 years from Marshall and Celestion, it's that there are no absolutes, and relying on the History of Marshall isn't a given fact resource, just a guideline with plenty of anomalies and changes. Plenty of Marshall catalogs were altered, I believe the phrase "artworked in" was something I read somewhere and I'm sure they had to order catalogs 3-4 months in advance. I'm sure they had to have pictures of the basketweave cloth cabs to put in the catalogs before they were sent to the printers.

    You have your opinion, you're welcome to it. Not going to debate it to death with you. I've got what I have here, I'm happy with it, and clearly even if the cab is an early 68, it has all the 67 construction features minus the pinstripe cloth.

  28. #28
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by ScumbackSpeakers View Post
    You have your opinion, you're welcome to it.
    As you have yours, to which you're equally welcome.

    We're probably best leaving it there.
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  29. #29

    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    50 years ago almost to the day, Marshall sponsored the event "Christmas on Earth Continued" at the Olympia in London. Jimi Hendrix, Traffic and Pink Floyd played, among others. There were huge "Go Over Big With Marshall" banners, and on stage were several brand new, shiny Marshall stacks.

    To this day I've never found any photos which clearly show whether the stacks have pinstripe or basketweave cloth. The footage of Jimi or Traffic is quite grainy, enough so that it's impossible to tell for sure whether it's a grey pinstripe, or the pixellation turning the salt & pepper into grey. But usually it's very easy to see the distinct pinstripe pattern, and I can't say for sure I see it on those stacks.

    Does anyone know of a photo which shows the stage clearly enough to determine whether those were pinstripe or BW stacks? The stacks appear to be brand new, and since it was apparently Marshall sponsored, they probably supplied the full backline. I do know that at least both Jimi and Traffic used those stacks. The event took place on Dec 22, 1967, so if those were basketweave stacks then that would prove the existence of BW Marshalls before 1968.

    Hey, I'm home sick from work today...got nothing else to do!

  30. #30
    Les Paul Forum Member ourmaninthenorth's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!







    Pinstripe.
    Shakespeare walks into a pub, the Landlord says "get out, you're Bard"

  31. #31

    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    I am also leaning towards pinstripe, but I still think the footage is too grainy to say for sure. In some of the closer shots you can see a sort of pattern there that looks like pinstripe, but as soon as the camera moves it disappears into a much more uniform appearance...so is it the pinstripe pattern, or is it some kind of intermodulation effect in the recording and digitization that causes it? In some shots the cloth also looks a touch brighter than I would expect from pinstripe.

    Nevertheless, all in all I lean towards pinstripe, so what does that tell us? Not really much, except I would expect that Marshall would put "the latest and greatest" up on that stage. If BW cabs were indeed in production in late 67, then that's what I would expect to see on stage.

  32. #32
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by shakti View Post
    If BW cabs were indeed in production in late 67.......
    I note that MG has a 67 basketweave cab for sale.
    Last edited by F-Hole; 12-22-17 at 06:47 AM.
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  33. #33
    Les Paul Forum Member AA00475Bassman's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Thanks for posting your gear Scumback looks like some more cool gear from your collection i don't know jack about Marshall cabs .
    Last edited by AA00475Bassman; 12-22-17 at 07:51 PM.
    Ive never confused owning a bunch of high end gear with being some kind of a guitar player I'm a hack and I love guitars

  34. #34
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by AA00475Bassman View Post
    ....i don't know jack about Marshall cabs....
    ...so the purpose of the post was?

    Quote Originally Posted by AA00475Bassman View Post
    ...how do you compete with this.....
    Take your head for a wobble, it's not a competition.

    FFS.
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  35. #35

    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by F-Hole View Post
    I note that MG has a 67 basketweave cab for sale.
    I see what you're saying, and I do believe you are correct that BW did not exist pre-68. Nevertheless I am trying to establish the best available evidence, and that would be era photos showing clearly the type of grille cloth. Hence why I was trying to look very closely at those 12/22/67 shots.

    The earliest date verified photo I have seen of BW cabs are from Hendrix' European tour in May '68. There are several very good photos from Rome in May '68 with shiny new BW cabs.

  36. #36
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by shakti View Post
    I see what you're saying, and I do believe you are correct that BW did not exist pre-68. Nevertheless I am trying to establish the best available evidence, and that would be era photos showing clearly the type of grille cloth. Hence why I was trying to look very closely at those 12/22/67 shots.

    The earliest date verified photo I have seen of BW cabs are from Hendrix' European tour in May '68. There are several very good photos from Rome in May '68 with shiny new BW cabs.
    And it's a noble quest. I've exhausted my Google-fu trying to find a 67 example, and can't......for the obvious reason.

    I think the point that Scumback is trying to make is that cab construction is, essentially, the same......other than the cloth and the 25w drivers.
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  37. #37
    Les Paul Forum Member becks bolero's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by becks bolero View Post
    great thread, thanks for all the useful info!

    I have a stripped/refin straight 4x12 I have always thought was a '68; how would I tel if it's indeed a '68?

    it has basketweave/cane grill, but may not be original. metal handles

    thx!
    hey, either of you "I know more about vintage Marshall's than anyone else" jerkoffs care to contribute?

    thanks!
    "First off, nobody cares if you know how to play scales. Nobody gives a shit if you have good technique or not. It's whether you have feelings that you want to express with music, that's what counts, really." -Neil Young

  38. #38
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner and Moderator CDaughtry's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by becks bolero View Post
    hey, either of you "I know more about vintage Marshall's than anyone else" jerkoffs care to contribute?

    thanks!

    As nicely as you’re asking, how could they refuse?

  39. #39
    Les Paul Forum Member renderit's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by becks bolero View Post
    hey, either of you "I know more about vintage Marshall's than anyone else" jerkoffs care to contribute?

    thanks!
    Alas, reading is fundamental. Before you asked the question posts 19 and 21 both gave you the info you needed. Look at the bottom soundboard bracing. One length of 1x2? (1967) or corner angles (1968) off the pictures. Both apparently have the thin edged flanges on the handles.

    And I'm the village idiot? Name calling? Are we 8?

    And Bassman, rethink your Mini me comment. They are all fine fellows here. Don't douche it up.


  40. #40
    Les Paul Forum Member ScumbackSpeakers's Avatar
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    Re: NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

    Quote Originally Posted by F-Hole View Post
    And it's a noble quest. I've exhausted my Google-fu trying to find a 67 example, and can't......for the obvious reason.

    I think the point that Scumback is trying to make is that cab construction is, essentially, the same......other than the cloth and the 25w drivers.
    That's correct F-hole. It's the same bracing, handles, etc. except for the cloth. The 20w G12M's I have don't have any evidence of the 25w sticker on top of the label, no residual glue or telltale shadow. I've had a few of those and know what to look for.

    If I'd ever seen a 68 bw cab with the 67 bracing for the baffleboard, I'd just say "It's a 68 straight." but I never have. But that doesn't mean I've seen every permutation of Marshall cabs, or Celestion G12M 20w, either.

    Long story short, it's got 67 cab construction, 67 date code G12M's and basketweave cloth, not pinstripe. Anything is possible, no one here (that I know of) was there when this cab went out the door, certainly not me. It's got a mix of features which point both ways for a date of manufacture.

    What is fact is that your cab is 67 or earlier since it has pinstripe, 20w G12M's and the 67 bracing.

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