NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

ScumbackSpeakers · Dec 19, 2017

F-Hole said:
OK, I'll snap some photos tomorrow. I hope we both learn something.

Saw your pics, obviously a 412 cab with pinstripe cloth is 67 or earlier. Your handles are the same size as mine,
the bracing on the bottom of the baffle board is the same as well.

I've got an old basketweave slant here, used to be owned by Queen, then George Lynch of Dokken, and some band named "Nazgul"
from all of the stencils on the back. It's got late 67 (Oct/November) G12M 20w T1221's in it...but it has basketweave cloth, not
pinstripe cloth.

Here's the insides of a 68 slant I restored 10 years ago...serial #: 29999

Here's the insides of a 67 slant I restored 11 years ago...it had the salt & pepper basketweave cloth, not pinstripe.

My conclusion is that (typical Marshall) there was the usual lengthy transition period from pinstripe to basketweave
cloth, narrow flange metal handles to wide flange metal handles, G12M 20w to G12M 25w, etc, etc.

I've never seen a 68 cab with the side to side bracing on the baffle board, or with narrow flange metal
handles, so the bracing and the narrow flange metal handles are kind of the determining factor for me
on the age since I have the other ones (minus the pinstripe cloth). My understanding is that the serial #'s on the
cabs aren't sequential for dating purposes, and some of my own cabs have serial #'s before and after the 68
slant's 29999 and they're from 69-72.

My restoration thread on that 68 slant is here on the TGP forum if anyone cares to see it.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...estoration-not-for-the-faint-of-heart.214442/

Basically I think this comes down to pinstripe cloth is definitely 67 or earlier, and basketweave started sneaking in
at the end of 67 since it's definitely in the 1968 Marshall catalogs.

Thanks for the pics, F-Hole!

corpse · Dec 19, 2017

Now THAT's what i am talking about. Thank you.
When I am excited about the only 1968 Black faced Deluxe Reverb that I found by all means point out that none were made and you can tell by the transformer, blah, blah, blah... We cannot be afraid of bubble busting here- I look at this place as an archive, maybe the only one for this type of tribal knowledge.
John you are a wealth of knowledge and I respect that immensely. When F-Hole reappeared I posted that I was very glad you were back.
Now get busy writing the definitive Marshall Book.
Is it correct that the grill cloth cab from Taxi Cab seats?

F-Hole · Dec 19, 2017

corpse said:
Is it correct that the grill cloth cab from Taxi Cab seats?

Not quite. It was used as headliner in a couple of models, as was the white Vynair cloth used on the earlier Marshalls. I almost bought a wreck of a car just because it had the right cloth headliner......but the 400 mile drive and having to buy the whole car (or pay them to re-wreck it) put me off. That was over a decade ago.

As an aside, the brown pinstripe cloth that has appeared occasionally wasn't used by Marshall. A full bolt of it was found by a vintage Marshall dealer in the 90's at a provincial auction close to his home. He sold bits and pieces but most of it went to Music Ground, who originally tried to sand it back and recolour it grey. It didn't work out too well and you can see that in some of their early fakes. Later, they just used the brown as it didn't take to the recolouring process very well. That's when the "brown cloth was original" myth started. Interestingly, the Marshall factory address was on the brown paper around the bolt of cloth, with "return" written on it. Seems that the wrong colour was sent to Marshall and the cloth was subsequently returned.

becks bolero · Dec 20, 2017

great thread, thanks for all the useful info!

I have a stripped/refin straight 4x12 I have always thought was a '68; how would I tel if it's indeed a '68?

it has basketweave/cane grill, but may not be original. metal handles

thx!

F-Hole · Dec 20, 2017

I very much doubt a cab with November 67 codes would have left the factory in 67. More likely a quarter or so behind, which would make yours a well into 68.

It's also likely that your 20w 1221's are actually 25w, the formers were upgraded a few months before the stickers were changed, so you'll find 25w formers in post-October 67 greenbacks despite them being marked 20w on the stickers. White former is 20w, brown former is 25w. Brian Harding is the go-to guy on the minutiae of speaker label/former cross-over.

I agree that you'd expect to see basketweave cabs specified in the 68 catalogue, the catalogues were issued in March each year (with new pricing for the start of the next financial year). I wouldn't place too much store in the accuracy of the catalogues themselves though, they frequently contained pictures of cabs and amps that were never put into production (e.g. the 18w panel layout in the '66 catalogue was never put into production but was, iroinically, used as the basis for the layout on a run of fake panels). In the same way, the Rose Morris catalogue from 68 shows basketweave cabs with block logos, yet I don't know anybody who's ever seen one. Better not to rely on catalogues as the basis for either model accuracy or dating.

In short, pinstripe = 1967, basketweave = 1968.........and later than Oct 67 1221's marked 20w are more likely to be 25w, despite what the label says.

ourmaninthenorth · Dec 20, 2017

Truly excellent thread Gentlemen.

Well played.

ScumbackSpeakers · Dec 21, 2017

F-Hole: I'm aware of the white former 20w vs tan colored former 25w change. I checked mine when I got it 7 years ago, they're white. Others I've had from 68 pm were tan. As for a cab with Oct/November 67 speaker date codes leaving the factory a full quarter later, I doubt that. While Marshall was moving some amps, I would surmise that they didn't have a 3-4 month backlog of orders then.

The 20w white formers sound different (better) than the tan 25w models, IMO, which is why they're so sought after.

As for everything else Marshall & Celestion there really are no hard/set deadlines or time frames for model # changes, and it was always "specifications subject to change without notice".

I put two 73/74 G12H30 55 hz 8 ohm speakers in this cab, T1460 frame codes, and they've got 102 014 Pulsonic cones in them, which should have been long gone by then, but that's what's in those Rola Celestion stickered frames.

If there's one thing I've learned over the last 20 years from Marshall and Celestion, it's that there are no absolutes, and relying on the History of Marshall isn't a given fact resource, just a guideline with plenty of anomalies and changes. Plenty of Marshall catalogs were altered, I believe the phrase "artworked in" was something I read somewhere and I'm sure they had to order catalogs 3-4 months in advance. I'm sure they had to have pictures of the basketweave cloth cabs to put in the catalogs before they were sent to the printers.

You have your opinion, you're welcome to it. Not going to debate it to death with you. I've got what I have here, I'm happy with it, and clearly even if the cab is an early 68, it has all the 67 construction features minus the pinstripe cloth.

F-Hole · Dec 21, 2017

ScumbackSpeakers said:
You have your opinion, you're welcome to it.

As you have yours, to which you're equally welcome.

We're probably best leaving it there.

shakti · Dec 21, 2017

50 years ago almost to the day, Marshall sponsored the event "Christmas on Earth Continued" at the Olympia in London. Jimi Hendrix, Traffic and Pink Floyd played, among others. There were huge "Go Over Big With Marshall" banners, and on stage were several brand new, shiny Marshall stacks.

To this day I've never found any photos which clearly show whether the stacks have pinstripe or basketweave cloth. The footage of Jimi or Traffic is quite grainy, enough so that it's impossible to tell for sure whether it's a grey pinstripe, or the pixellation turning the salt & pepper into grey. But usually it's very easy to see the distinct pinstripe pattern, and I can't say for sure I see it on those stacks.

Does anyone know of a photo which shows the stage clearly enough to determine whether those were pinstripe or BW stacks? The stacks appear to be brand new, and since it was apparently Marshall sponsored, they probably supplied the full backline. I do know that at least both Jimi and Traffic used those stacks. The event took place on Dec 22, 1967, so if those were basketweave stacks then that would prove the existence of BW Marshalls before 1968.

Hey, I'm home sick from work today...got nothing else to do!

ourmaninthenorth · Dec 21, 2017

Pinstripe.

shakti · Dec 22, 2017

I am also leaning towards pinstripe, but I still think the footage is too grainy to say for sure. In some of the closer shots you can see a sort of pattern there that looks like pinstripe, but as soon as the camera moves it disappears into a much more uniform appearance...so is it the pinstripe pattern, or is it some kind of intermodulation effect in the recording and digitization that causes it? In some shots the cloth also looks a touch brighter than I would expect from pinstripe.

Nevertheless, all in all I lean towards pinstripe, so what does that tell us? Not really much, except I would expect that Marshall would put "the latest and greatest" up on that stage. If BW cabs were indeed in production in late 67, then that's what I would expect to see on stage.

F-Hole · Dec 22, 2017

shakti said:
If BW cabs were indeed in production in late 67.......

I note that MG has a 67 basketweave cab for sale.

AA00475Bassman · Dec 22, 2017

Thanks for posting your gear Scumback looks like some more cool gear from your collection i don't know jack about Marshall cabs .

F-Hole · Dec 22, 2017

AA00475Bassman said:
....i don't know jack about Marshall cabs....

...so the purpose of the post was?

AA00475Bassman said:
...how do you compete with this.....

Take your head for a wobble, it's not a competition.

FFS.

shakti · Dec 22, 2017

F-Hole said:
I note that MG has a 67 basketweave cab for sale.

I see what you're saying, and I do believe you are correct that BW did not exist pre-68. Nevertheless I am trying to establish the best available evidence, and that would be era photos showing clearly the type of grille cloth. Hence why I was trying to look very closely at those 12/22/67 shots.

The earliest date verified photo I have seen of BW cabs are from Hendrix' European tour in May '68. There are several very good photos from Rome in May '68 with shiny new BW cabs.

F-Hole · Dec 22, 2017

shakti said:
I see what you're saying, and I do believe you are correct that BW did not exist pre-68. Nevertheless I am trying to establish the best available evidence, and that would be era photos showing clearly the type of grille cloth. Hence why I was trying to look very closely at those 12/22/67 shots.

The earliest date verified photo I have seen of BW cabs are from Hendrix' European tour in May '68. There are several very good photos from Rome in May '68 with shiny new BW cabs.

And it's a noble quest. I've exhausted my Google-fu trying to find a 67 example, and can't......for the obvious reason.

I think the point that Scumback is trying to make is that cab construction is, essentially, the same......other than the cloth and the 25w drivers.

becks bolero · Dec 22, 2017

becks bolero said:
great thread, thanks for all the useful info!

I have a stripped/refin straight 4x12 I have always thought was a '68; how would I tel if it's indeed a '68?

it has basketweave/cane grill, but may not be original. metal handles

thx!

hey, either of you "I know more about vintage Marshall's than anyone else" jerkoffs care to contribute?

thanks!

CDaughtry · Dec 22, 2017

becks bolero said:
hey, either of you "I know more about vintage Marshall's than anyone else" jerkoffs care to contribute?

thanks!

As nicely as you’re asking, how could they refuse?:##

renderit · Dec 22, 2017

becks bolero said:
hey, either of you "I know more about vintage Marshall's than anyone else" jerkoffs care to contribute?

thanks!

Alas, reading is fundamental. Before you asked the question posts 19 and 21 both gave you the info you needed. Look at the bottom soundboard bracing. One length of 1x2? (1967) or corner angles (1968) off the pictures. Both apparently have the thin edged flanges on the handles.

And I'm the village idiot? Name calling? Are we 8?

And Bassman, rethink your Mini me comment. They are all fine fellows here. Don't douche it up.

ScumbackSpeakers · Dec 23, 2017

F-Hole said:
And it's a noble quest. I've exhausted my Google-fu trying to find a 67 example, and can't......for the obvious reason.

I think the point that Scumback is trying to make is that cab construction is, essentially, the same......other than the cloth and the 25w drivers.

That's correct F-hole. It's the same bracing, handles, etc. except for the cloth. The 20w G12M's I have don't have any evidence of the 25w sticker on top of the label, no residual glue or telltale shadow. I've had a few of those and know what to look for.

If I'd ever seen a 68 bw cab with the 67 bracing for the baffleboard, I'd just say "It's a 68 straight." but I never have. But that doesn't mean I've seen every permutation of Marshall cabs, or Celestion G12M 20w, either.

Long story short, it's got 67 cab construction, 67 date code G12M's and basketweave cloth, not pinstripe. Anything is possible, no one here (that I know of) was there when this cab went out the door, certainly not me. It's got a mix of features which point both ways for a date of manufacture.

What is fact is that your cab is 67 or earlier since it has pinstripe, 20w G12M's and the 67 bracing.

NOCD: 67 Marhall Straight Cab!

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