55 - 57 Conversion, advice on value please?

ta6rma · Nov 17, 2017

Hi!
A guy I know happened to mention that he had an old Les Paul he was looking to sell, naturally this got my interest up. According to him - it's a '55 that has been converted to '57 spec, routed for humbuckers and the P90s replaced with original 59 PAFs. The conversion was done some time in the 70s, he has owned it since 1980, it hasn't been played for 15 years as he prefers an SG these days. I told him I'd ask for some opinions from the knowledgeable guys on here.

I've not seen the guitar yet, just a few phone pics so far, I'm no expert but noticed a few issues - the PAFs seem legit but have been coil tapped at some point, covers have been off & on, the serial number has been altered where someone has tried to change the first digit from 5 to a 7, the remaining digits look OK. Pickup rings aren't original, it has bonnet knobs fitted.

I was looking to buy a 68 but would be interested in buying this one if it's legit (and in my budget!!) so any advice as to rough value, or what potential issues to look for would be greatly appreciated. I'm hoping to see the guitar soon - what areas should I get photos of?
Many thanks
Rich

(these are the only pics I have so far, hoping to get more soon)

Tom Wittrock · Nov 17, 2017

Got any photos of the serial number, and the control cavity?
Is it refinished?
Those routs for the humbuckers don't look like converted P-90 routs. :hmm

Jumping@Shadows · Nov 17, 2017

You’ll have to add about $12k for those nickel pole DW PAFs too :hmm

Jumping@Shadows · Nov 17, 2017

Nicely converted for a ‘70s job imo, but top refinished..

DutchRay · Nov 17, 2017

If it's anything like my '55>'57 conversion, it'll be the last guitar you buy!

MeHereNow · Nov 18, 2017

Top refinish for sure, but look closely and you can still see the screwholes for the p90's in the routings.
Routings themself look a bit wobbly.
Gibson logo is correctly for the timeperiod, placed lower on the headstock.
Potcodes, if pots are original, should provide info.
Also, it might come in handy to know if this guitar had the ABR/stoptail combo, or just the stoptail/wraparound bridge originally.
If it had a stoptail, there's a groundwire hole in the lower right corner of the brigde pickup cavity (having the guitar on your lap in playing mode)
Also, the double white pafs, ok, they've been tampered with, but a coil tap is reversable ( but be veeeery carefull!) and double whites are sought after.
Hoping to see more pics! :salude

Jumping@Shadows · Nov 18, 2017

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the inlays are the earlier type, without the vertical ‘stripes’ seen post ‘56 or so, and it’s probably a converted wraptail

mdubya · Nov 18, 2017

What are the chances of authentic double white PAF's on a 70's conversion?

Love these threads. Supercool guitar.

MeHereNow · Nov 18, 2017

Double white pafs in a 70's conversion would'nt be that strange.
A lot of people discarded the pafs in favour of the then new DiMarzio SD's which drove the amps harder thuss more gain.
I checked the pics a bit more:

i'm missing the bottomplate screws for the bridge pickup...

Speedknobs are the tall early 50's one's

i vaguely seem to distinguish a large plug where the treble abr post is exactly centered in in the top (photo 3)
also the same 'plug ghostring' at the bass side abr post "northwest'' on photo 4
Makes me think original wraptail..
Though the tailpiecebushings seem to line up with the volume knobs, the classis 'inbetween' volume knobs straight line.

i'm almost beginning to think this goldtop is earlier then 55...

Hoping you get some more pics soon! :salude

ta6rma · Nov 22, 2017

Tom Wittrock said:
Got any photos of the serial number, and the control cavity?
Is it refinished?
Those routs for the humbuckers don't look like converted P-90 routs. :hmm

Thanks for the reply Tom.
I got to see and play the guitar tonight. Those PAFs sound killer!
It has (the owner thinks) original case, the original 55 shallow neck angle, frets look original, the neck is not as fat as I had expected so it may have been shaved, but if so it must have been done before the owner bought it in 1980. The top has been refinished, again pre 1980.
Strangely, there are what looks like two plugged holes just below the tailpiece - we guessed maybe it was badly converted then fixed later...??

I have some more pics as requested:

Thanks
Rich

ta6rma · Nov 22, 2017

Hi guys,
Many thanks for the knowledgable replies.
It is a great guitar, got to play it tonight, compared to my 2013 R9 - it's heavier, feels around the 10lb mark, the neck is slimmer and the neck angle is not as steep.
The neck may have been shaved and refinished which might explain the serial number - it looks like it has been re-applied but the first digit changed from 5 to a 7 - you can see a faint shadow of the original SN
According to what the owner was told, it was owned by a player in New York who was the second owner, he got the conversion done sometime during the 70s. It was sold to a dealer in Kalamazoo who sold it to the shop in the UK where the current owner bought it in 1980.
I've got a few more pics:

Thanks
Rich

ta6rma · Nov 22, 2017

Jumping@Shadows said:
I’m going to go out on a limb and say the inlays are the earlier type, without the vertical ‘stripes’ seen post ‘56 or so, and it’s probably a converted wraptail

Yes the owner believes it was a wraparound

ta6rma · Nov 22, 2017

MeHereNow said:
Double white pafs in a 70's conversion would'nt be that strange.
A lot of people discarded the pafs in favour of the then new DiMarzio SD's which drove the amps harder thuss more gain.
I checked the pics a bit more:

i'm missing the bottomplate screws for the bridge pickup...

Speedknobs are the tall early 50's one's

i vaguely seem to distinguish a large plug where the treble abr post is exactly centered in in the top (photo 3)
also the same 'plug ghostring' at the bass side abr post "northwest'' on photo 4
Makes me think original wraptail..
Though the tailpiecebushings seem to line up with the volume knobs, the classis 'inbetween' volume knobs straight line.

i'm almost beginning to think this goldtop is earlier then 55...

Hoping you get some more pics soon! :salude

Hi, yes the owner thinks it was originally a wrap tail.
As you noticed there are visible plug marks, one is dead centre on the treble post, the other is to the left and slightly below the bass post.
Also there are 2 plugged holes directly below the tailpiece, as though it has been relocated.... maybe a botched conversion? Any ideas?

Jumping@Shadows · Nov 22, 2017

IRC pots, shallow neck pitch and grey tiger caps but large out put wire channel makes this an early ‘54 at best, which has been previously incorrectly stoptailed as noted.
The value of the DW PAFs is critical imo, and I’d buy it without them to halve the outlay and just throw in some Wizz replicas, as it’ll sound just as good.

MeHereNow · Nov 22, 2017

Check out this quote from Guitarhq's site:

"[FONT=verdana,arial,helv,helvetica][SIZE=-1]Note there were a handful of 1954 Goldtops made with the serial number starting with "7". This is confusing as the "7" would otherwise mean 1957 (and a 1957 Goldtop would have a Tunematic bridge). This was no doubt a mistake by Gibson, and the pot source/code can be checked to verify the correct year. I would estimate less than ten of these 1954 Goldtops with a 1957 serial number exist."
[/SIZE][/FONT]
http://www.guitarhq.com/gibson5.html

Could it be..? :salude

ta6rma · Nov 22, 2017

MeHereNow said:
Check out this quote from Guitarhq's site:

"[SIZE=-1]Note there were a handful of 1954 Goldtops made with the serial number starting with "7". This is confusing as the "7" would otherwise mean 1957 (and a 1957 Goldtop would have a Tunematic bridge). This was no doubt a mistake by Gibson, and the pot source/code can be checked to verify the correct year. I would estimate less than ten of these 1954 Goldtops with a 1957 serial number exist."
[/SIZE]
http://www.guitarhq.com/gibson5.html

Could it be..? :salude

Haha, wow that would really be something!
I'll see if the owner will get pics of the pot codes. Although the serial number looks like it was originally a 5...

ta6rma · Nov 26, 2017

Jumping@Shadows said:
IRC pots, shallow neck pitch and grey tiger caps but large out put wire channel makes this an early ‘54 at best, which has been previously incorrectly stoptailed as noted.
The value of the DW PAFs is critical imo, and I’d buy it without them to halve the outlay and just throw in some Wizz replicas, as it’ll sound just as good.

Hi, pot date codes are 449, that would be December 54, so it must be later than that

ta6rma · Nov 26, 2017

MeHereNow said:
Check out this quote from Guitarhq's site:

"[SIZE=-1]Note there were a handful of 1954 Goldtops made with the serial number starting with "7". This is confusing as the "7" would otherwise mean 1957 (and a 1957 Goldtop would have a Tunematic bridge). This was no doubt a mistake by Gibson, and the pot source/code can be checked to verify the correct year. I would estimate less than ten of these 1954 Goldtops with a 1957 serial number exist."
[/SIZE]
http://www.guitarhq.com/gibson5.html

Could it be..? :salude

Pots date 49th week 54

MeHereNow · Nov 28, 2017

ta6rma said:
Pots date 49th week 54

So this is one of the named estimated 10 ?!?

DrRobert · Dec 1, 2017

Is this a good friend? Are you estimating value to maximize his profit, trying to compromise on a fair value, or trying to figure out the minimum that you can pay him and still remain friends?

55 - 57 Conversion, advice on value please?

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