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Possible to get a funky Strat out-of-phase tone from a Les Paul?

jsegovia

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Mar 12, 2003
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163
I sold my Eric Johnson Strat and while I don't feel too much regret I do mss that funky, in between pickups out of phase tone Strats excel at. Is it possible to get that same tone from a Les Paul?

I've owned three 3-pickup Customs and I think when those come out of the factory the middle pickup selector switch setting is the bridge pickup and the middle pickup wired out-of-phase - I've never been impressed with that sound so I've always done the three volume knob, one master tone knob mod which I love. But could I have someone wire the middle pickup so it's out of phase with the rhythm and treble pickups, so when I choose the middle and either of the other two pups I'd get close to a funky Strat tone?

I've also owned several PRS Standards and Customs and those guitars always have that funky tone as one of the rotary switch positions, so I know you can get it with humbuckers, although they're probably split when that position is selected.

Thanks!

Jesse
 

LarryC

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Sep 28, 2001
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I get a pretty good funk tone with the neck humbucker split (using a push-pull neck volume pot) and roll the volume back.It's not the strat quack tone ,it's more like the middle pickup on a strat,close enough to not need to bring the strat to gigs if I don't want to..I'm happy with it.
 

Big Al

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Apr 24, 2002
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The Strat middle pickup + neck or bridge pup tone is not wired out of phase and is not "out of phase", as is the triple pickup Custom not wired out of phase.

The "Quack" tone is an exaggerated twang tone as when two pickups, typically neck + bridge, are combined, common frequencies read out of phase from one pickup to the other are cancelled. This results in a slightly hollow twangy tone we all know from center switch pos.

When a middle pickup is selected in combination with either a bridge or neck pickup the closer distance between pickups results in greater frequency cancellation due to more common frequencies out of phase in the closer location of the pickups in relation to each other. The Customs center + bridge combo shows a similar quack as the Strat but with a humbucker tonality.

I get a similar "quack" in my Standards with a flipped out of phase magnet on the neck pickup for true magnetically oop pick up combinaton. I almost always have the tone pot rolled down a little on the bridge pickup to shave off the brittle glassy edge and keep the neck tone wide open.

You get maximum effect, (quack), with both volume controls equal, but you can fine tune the effect by lowering a volume pot control, (I usually lower the neck vol), and use your ear. I find I can get an acceptable strat quack to suit my needs, but I have Strats and can grab one for authentic tone if needed.
 

zacknorton

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If you haven't explored series/parallel coil switching in humbuckers I'd like to suggest looking into that rabbit hole. I'd think that two humbuckers out of phase and each wired in parallel would get you pretty deep into funk town.
 

MeHereNow

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Aug 13, 2009
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I replace my tone caps with a 4.7 nF Sozo or TAD foil cap.
When you i roll down the tone i get a Peter Green like out-of-phase sound.
No need flippin the magnet or wiring the p.u. coils out of phase if that trick does what you want
 

Big Al

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I replace my tone caps with a 4.7 nF Sozo or TAD foil cap.
When you i roll down the tone i get a Peter Green like out-of-phase sound.
No need flippin the magnet or wiring the p.u. coils out of phase if that trick does what you want

All that does is affect the bass roll off and IME does't change the phase relationship between between pickups and does not thin the tone for anything like single coil tonality or the quacky Strat #2 or #4 switch setting tone that the op is after.
 

MeHereNow

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All that does is affect the bass roll off and IME does't change the phase relationship between between pickups and does not thin the tone for anything like single coil tonality or the quacky Strat #2 or #4 switch setting tone that the op is after.

Im aware of that..
i called it a Peter green LIKE sound.
And with 2 pickups selected the tweaking possibilities of doing this simple mod are endless and might even get the OP what he's after.
He askes, we try to help and come up with suggestions.
You say "IME", that means that you'd already literally did the exact same mod?
If not, give it a whirl and you will understand, or even better, hear what i mean.
 

jsegovia

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Mar 12, 2003
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163
The Strat middle pickup + neck or bridge pup tone is not wired out of phase and is not "out of phase", as is the triple pickup Custom not wired out of phase.

The "Quack" tone is an exaggerated twang tone as when two pickups, typically neck + bridge, are combined, common frequencies read out of phase from one pickup to the other are cancelled. This results in a slightly hollow twangy tone we all know from center switch pos.

When a middle pickup is selected in combination with either a bridge or neck pickup the closer distance between pickups results in greater frequency cancellation due to more common frequencies out of phase in the closer location of the pickups in relation to each other. The Customs center + bridge combo shows a similar quack as the Strat but with a humbucker tonality.

I get a similar "quack" in my Standards with a flipped out of phase magnet on the neck pickup for true magnetically oop pick up combinaton. I almost always have the tone pot rolled down a little on the bridge pickup to shave off the brittle glassy edge and keep the neck tone wide open.

You get maximum effect, (quack), with both volume controls equal, but you can fine tune the effect by lowering a volume pot control, (I usually lower the neck vol), and use your ear. I find I can get an acceptable strat quack to suit my needs, but I have Strats and can grab one for authentic tone if needed.

Hey, Al, I know this is an old thread but I now own a Les Paul Axcess with coil taps which I'm willing to modify to get the sound I'm looking for. Are you saying to have someone take apart the neck humbucker, remove one of the coils (does it matter if it's the one with screws or slug pole pieces?), flip in and then put it back in the humbucker? I know it's not just a matter of rotating the humbucker in the guitar, although Peter Green also did that to his Les Paul.

I still don't understand how PRS gets a decent Strat 'in-between' sound with two humbuckers. I used to have an '86 PRS (what was later called a Standard 24) and I used it on a ton of funky rhythm guitar parts on tech-funk recordings - it sounded just like Nile Rodgers to me!

Jesse
 

marshall1987

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Jan 30, 2005
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Big Al got it right. It just takes a magnet flip, usually on the neck pickup. This changes the polarity (north and south) of the pickup with respect to the "balanced" pair, but is only audible when both pickups are selected in the middle position, and your guitar is not a stereo ES-3xx model.

Much like the neck pickup magnet that was turned around 180 degrees on Peter Green's vintage Les Paul Standard. Peter Green's neck pickup was also rotated 180 degrees from nominal, but this in itself has no effect on the polarity of the pickup.
 

Big Al

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The closest I've come to that tone with coil tapped humbuckers is with a center, [both pickups engaged], phase flip switch and series/parallel switch, [either via push/pull switching pots or mini switches]. With both pickups on and both pickups coil cut for single coil, put them out of phase and flip them from parallel to series. One setting will get very close, one will have an exaggerated oof tone. Either series or parallel, [I think it was parallel I can't remember], I had a humbucker loaded Jaguar that Seymour Duncan did for me in the late 70's and it did that tone very well.

It was the same effect as I get with my Baja Teles which are duo single coil with phase flip switch and series switch position. On those the parallel oop setting does a great Strat quack position 2 or 4 tone.

The Jaguar had Duncan flat pole Stag Mag humbuckers, [so no Stag], and I'm not sure if that or coil selection choice, [winding direction and/or polarity], was critical to get that tone. I know I miss having that Jag and plan on having one of my Les Pauls wired up like it so I can get all those useful tones [Jimmy Page?].

I don't know if this helps or not.
 

gibson-r8

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And that was the best explanation I have ever read about Strat Quack. Thanks Al.
 

brandtkronholm

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Hey, Al, I know this is an old thread but I now own a Les Paul Axcess with coil taps which I'm willing to modify to get the sound I'm looking for. Are you saying to have someone take apart the neck humbucker, remove one of the coils (does it matter if it's the one with screws or slug pole pieces?), flip in and then put it back in the humbucker? I know it's not just a matter of rotating the humbucker in the guitar, although Peter Green also did that to his Les Paul.

Jesse

Just like marshal1978 said, it's only a magnet flip and not nearly as invasive or complicated as you've described. The pickup does not need to taken apart. Simply loosen the underside screws, remove the magnet, flip it like a pancake north to south, slide it back in and tighten the screws. You may do this on either the neck or bridge pickup, it doesn't matter. It is only mildly invasive and easily undone. Go nuts! (And don't forget to play with the volume controls on your guitar!)
 

Big Al

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Just like marshal1978 said, it's only a magnet flip and not nearly as invasive or complicated as you've described. The pickup does not need to taken apart. Simply loosen the underside screws, remove the magnet, flip it like a pancake north to south, slide it back in and tighten the screws. You may do this on either the neck or bridge pickup, it doesn't matter. It is only mildly invasive and easily undone. Go nuts! (And don't forget to play with the volume controls on your guitar!)

This. My post surgical drugs confused my reading of your post. First the magnet flip is easy. You only flip one pickups magnet. On the underside are 4 small screws that hold the bobbins. You LOOSEN them and gently push the magnet from the side with the coil hookup plastic wires, out the other end. I use a bunt screwdriver to push gently against the narrow magnet edge you can see, WITH THE COVER OFF, under and centered between the two coils polepieces. Just gently pull till it just slides out enough to grab with a small pair of pliers.

Just pull until the magnet comes free and then rotate your wrist so that the flat magnet face that was facing up, now faces down and the flat face that was on the bottom, against the base now lies against the plastic bobbin bottoms and push it back in. You may need to use the screwdriver, [or a wooden popsycle stick], to get it in the last little bit.

Then tighten the 4 bobbin screws, put on the cover, or not, and your good to go.

If you have coil taps, adding a phase switch and a series/parallel switch will allow for the four conductor, do it all option I unnecessarily posted about. It does do the Strat Quack and the Peter Green oof thing as well as other cool tones, but is nowhere as easy as flippin that flippen magnet.
 

metropolis

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I still don't understand how PRS gets a decent Strat 'in-between' sound with two humbuckers. I used to have an '86 PRS (what was later called a Standard 24) and I used it on a ton of funky rhythm guitar parts on tech-funk recordings - it sounded just like Nile Rodgers to me!

Jesse

Was it selecting a coil from each pickup? My Parker Fly does that for its middle position and it’s like position 2 on a strat with slightly more bottom end.
 

jsegovia

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Mar 12, 2003
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Was it selecting a coil from each pickup? My Parker Fly does that for its middle position and it’s like position 2 on a strat with slightly more bottom end.

Yes, I guess that's what it is but is it that simple? When I split both the pickups on my Les Paul Axcess in the middle position (both pickups) it doesn't sound anything like Strat middle positions. Maybe the trick is using specific coils, like both inside coils, but if you can get that sound on a dual humbucker PRS with 22 frets (or a Parker Fly), you should be able to get that same exact sound with a Les Paul with the same settings, right?

Jesse
 

metropolis

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They're wired parallel and I think one pickup may be reverse wound. I know through playing around with a strat I could only get that tone in position 2 if the middle pickup was reverse wound.

I would say the PRS would more naturally have that strat tone so even with the same wiring and pickups because of the body shape and scale length, just like my Parker is. The Les Paul won't get exactly there but if you have a coil from each and wire them parallel, with one reverse wound it should work.

I'm by no means an expert to happy to be corrected by someone else in here!
 

jsegovia

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Mar 12, 2003
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Thanks, everyone. I guess I may have to bite the bullet and buy another Stratocaster, and since I'm at my self-imposed maximum number of gigging electrics - 3 - I really can't one buy unless I sell my Les Paul Axcess.

I love Strats, especially how they sound but they feel really different to me. For me, 10s on a Les Paul are perfectly fine but on a Strat they require a lot more effort to play. I don't really like the curved fretboards - the only Strat I've ever found with a neck that's very comfortable for me to play is the Eric Johnson Strat which is a great guitar but fairly expensive used, at least for a Strat.

Do I need the Axcess, which sounds great but not quite as good as my two Historics, has coil tapping that for me doesn't really provide much tonal variety, but adds a great whammy bar and an excellent neck that's just a hair wider than most Les Paul necks and thinner than the Historics (I often play entire gigs with the Axcess and really enjoy it)? Or do I need a Strat that will sound fantastic but I won't enjoy playing as much as the Les Pauls?

Jesse
 

MeHereNow

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I don't really like the curved fretboards - the only Strat I've ever found with a neck that's very comfortable for me to play is the Eric Johnson Strat which is a great guitar but fairly expensive used, at least for a Strat.

Hey Jesse, i have the exact same.
Love the sound, could'nt get used to the 7.25 or 9.5 radius., and did'nt want splash out big for a EJ strat
I now, since a couple of weeks own a 2007 Classic player series 60's strat, a Sonic blue one
It's a mex, but holds his own against strats double the price.
Fairly big frets, chunky D neckprofile and a 12" fb radius.
No trouble for me switching between my R8's to the strat and vice versa qua feel
Check 1 out if you can find m, maybe you'll find it to be a good alternative axe.
 
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