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Tokai Japanese LS models vs German LS1-R9/8 models?

Andrius D

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Aug 16, 2015
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I just found that they have slightly different Tokai models in Germany than those that are made for the Japanese market. In Germany, they sell Tokai models LS1-R8 and LS1-R9 while the ones made for the Japanese market are LS98, LS160 and so on. Does anyone know to what regular Tokai models those German R8 and R9 models correspond in terms of material/build quality? LS200? LS260? LS320?... I reckon they are sort of based on these LS2xx models.

How different are LS1-R8 and R9 from their LS2xx counterparts? Are the body/neck shapes any different, Germans being wary of infringing alleged copyrights? Original Tokais being sort of 100% accurate reproductions of Gibson Les Pauls, I wonder if the German spec models are any less accurate reproductions of Gibson LP models.

Are neck profiles (thicknesses) different between the LS1-R8 and R9, like they are on the Gibson R8 and R9s? Are these neck profiles any different from LS2xx ones?
 

deytookerjaabs

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Best bet is going over to MLP and searching the "other single cuts" section. Lots of MIJ experts over there, a few here but over there it's really MIJ central for info.
 

duaneflowers

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The German ones are made in China and are closer to Epiphone specs while the Japanese made ones are quite close to Gibson specs.
 

Andrius D

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The German ones are made in China

Are you sure? There are some less expensive German ones but LS1's are around 2000-2700 EUR. That's like 2-3x what Chinese Tokai in official Japanese Tokai catalogue cost, so are you sure they are actually Chinese?
 

deytookerjaabs

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The German ones are made in China and are closer to Epiphone specs while the Japanese made ones are quite close to Gibson specs.


Any opinion across the board or towards specific new MIJ Tokai's? I've owned a couple old ones from '77-'85 or so (along w/Greco/Fernandes/Etc) but I've never seen a newer one beyond photos on the 'net so I'd love to hear any input.
 

duaneflowers

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While the early ones, 80ish, are amazing, the newer ones can be hit or miss. My latest one is a Ltd Ed '14 and it is amazing in every way...

19225131_10212521764095684_4365118075398000914_n.jpg
 

deytookerjaabs

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While the early ones, 80ish, are amazing, the newer ones can be hit or miss. My latest one is a Ltd Ed '14 and it is amazing in every way...

19225131_10212521764095684_4365118075398000914_n.jpg



NICE! That's good to know. I've got a lowly '83 LS-60 GoldTop on the way, looks like it was refin'd w/lacquer and given the full treatment, fingers crossed as ya never know how it'll be until it arrives but it looked good enough for me in the pics.
 

duaneflowers

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NICE! That's good to know. I've got a lowly '83 LS-60 GoldTop on the way, looks like it was refin'd w/lacquer and given the full treatment, fingers crossed as ya never know how it'll be until it arrives but it looked good enough for me in the pics.

Nothing wrong with LS-60s... my tea-leaves reveal they will become just as highly sought-after as their older brothers in years to come, so you might want to hang on to it.

Here are my '80 LS-80 & LS-120 'Reborn Old' exemplars...

19224851_10212531841267607_6113881688351166964_n.jpg
 

deytookerjaabs

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Nothing wrong with LS-60s... my tea-leaves reveal they will become just as highly sought-after as their older brothers in years to come, so you might want to hang on to it.

Here are my '80 LS-80 & LS-120 'Reborn Old' exemplars...

19224851_10212531841267607_6113881688351166964_n.jpg



364t1v2l.jpg


l1AvLoMl.jpg


3TZdbxol.jpg



I think those tea leaves are on to something!
 

kaputme

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Mar 14, 2018
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The German ones are made in China and are closer to Epiphone specs while the Japanese made ones are quite close to Gibson specs.
I just saw this thread, and even though it's a year old, though I would clear some misconception for future searches..

The faber guitars which are copies of Tokai are made in China licensed by Faber /Tokai Germany.
The LS series are custom hand built in Japan and original copies of 58 or 59 or for that matter their respective era les pauls. They have 5A grade maple in the R9 with nitro finish, hand wound boutique pickups orange drop capa, cts pots and True historic wiring, and long tenon necks.

Thats why they cost up to 2700€.. I own one.
All these info are from a friend of mine who is a guitar builder himself or luthier as they say, and he says its one of the best instruments he has ever seen and played.
 

spectrale

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Jun 15, 2016
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Trying to confirm date on a Tokai Gold Top (Reborn - Circa '79), which had a refinish and doesn't have a stamped serial number. http://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/p626079359
Bell-Type truss rod cover (ala Reborn, and pre-Reborn Old). BTW, I bought this...not prospecting. Trying to upload pics directly, but this is my first time using forum editor and only finding ability to link url-based images... Single ring tuners. Headstock inlay and decal both seem darker (more amber) than most I've seen.

9bb213

9bb219

9bb212

9bb218


-Paul



364t1v2l.jpg


l1AvLoMl.jpg


3TZdbxol.jpg



I think those tea leaves are on to something![/QUOTE]
 
Last edited:

duaneflowers

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Trying to confirm date on a Tokai Gold Top (Reborn - Circa '79), which had a refinish and doesn't have a stamped serial number. http://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/p626079359
Bell-Type truss rod cover (ala Reborn, and pre-Reborn Old). BTW, I bought this...not prospecting. Trying to upload pics directly, but this is my first time using forum editor and only finding ability to link url-based images... Single ring tuners. Headstock inlay and decal both seem darker (more amber) than most I've seen.

If it says Les Paul Reborn on the headstock it is a '78 or '79, Tokai changed the name from Les Paul Reborn to Reborn Old for the early 1980 models (later in 1980 it changed again to Love Rock).
 

spectrale

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Jun 15, 2016
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If it says Les Paul Reborn on the headstock it is a '78 or '79, Tokai changed the name from Les Paul Reborn to Reborn Old for the early 1980 models (later in 1980 it changed again to Love Rock).


Thanks, Duane. I bought this on a bit of leap of faith from Yahoo Japan (I have a good track record of MIJ strat and LP finds there, but you never really know until you have something in hand). In this case, I used the known usual clues to get comfortable that this was a legit Tokai Reborn from the 70-80s era. The listing was open about some of the internal changes (pickups, wiring, and possible refret - 'Rifuretto' as I've come to recognize in these translated listings from Japan) as well as the cosmetic ones (the darker finish/repaint). So I had confidence it was a true Reborn base that had some work done to it. Fired it up when I got home and did a quick exam without taking it all apart. Sounds great through my Boss Katana on my Gary Moore and other Marshall patches. Fit and finish are nice, and it's a keeper, though I didn't necessarily conclude that I'd gotten a hidden gem. Paid well less than I would have for a US-seller of this model and year, and this was true to my past experiences that guitars from Japan have generally been well-maintained and aren't beat to hell even when they are vintage aged. I'll add some more photos and data on the innards in hopes of nailing down how much of the original is left and confirming the year and model to the best possible extent. As I said, no visible serial on headstock, nor any imprinted model number. I think I see the back is either 2 piece or 3 piece and it has the reddish brown finish of a gold top. Looking forward to opening it up, but even more putting it all back together to play however I wind up configuring it (probably with some boutique PAF and 50s wiring setup). The amber tint on headstock made me wonder if it was a little unique or perhaps a model that was meant to be cosmetically upgraded to "vintage" look. Though the auction narrative suggests it was a gold top prior to refinish and built back up with comparable MIJ components from the same era, I wondered if it might not have been a possible gold-top conversion from say an LS-80BS (brown? sunburst) from the era, which I saw in the '79 Catalog I believe.
 

didimusic

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Jul 25, 2019
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The German ones are made in China and are closer to Epiphone specs while the Japanese made ones are quite close to Gibson specs.
"Hi, I have learned that the Tokai LS-2 and LS-1 are all made in Japan and distributed in Germany by Tokai Germany/Faber Guitars. Not made in China."
Cheers
didimusic
 

duaneflowers

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"Hi, I have learned that the Tokai LS-2 and LS-1 are all made in Japan and distributed in Germany by Tokai Germany/Faber Guitars. Not made in China."
Cheers
didimusic

Yes, those Reborn Old models were commissioned by a shop here in Japan (kind of like Wildwood and now Rumbleseat does) to their specs. They have been on sale here in Japan for a few years... and are quite pretty although I don't find them as acoustically warm and playably smooth as the old ones they emulate... understandably. If Tokai Germany/Faber has acquired a few of them to sell, it is completely independent of the Made in China models (and a few now reportedly Made in Korea) they commission themselves. None of the Tokai Germany/Faber products are made in Japan. If there ain't a "Made in Japan" stamp/sticker on the back, it ain't. If they were indeed made in Japan this would be the strongest possible selling point for Tokai Germany/Faber rather than trying to keep the Chinese connection off the website or sales brochures. To the best of my knowledge, if there are German LS-1s available they were imported from Japan and not made for Tokai German/Faber... unless something has changed since I talked to Tokai Japan about it last year. Which is possible... but unlikely... and I've seen absolutely no evidence to suggest otherwise. :salude
 
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