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True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

Orreman

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Joined
Jun 20, 2015
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147
Now the binding is ready to be routed. Florian uses acetone to glue on the binding . The acetone melts the celluloid that makes it attach to the
Brazilian rosewood.
Gibson uses glue instead, which is quicker and cheaper, but not historically correct.

18Ugf9T.jpg

3oP8pk1.jpg


Florian uses a Schanbacher & Ebner from 1959 to route the binding flush to the fretboard.
This is the exact same type of machine that Gibson used in their factory in Kalamazoo.

1u3uSsh.jpg

R8PZcL1.jpg


Binding routed. Still a lot of work the get the famous fret end nibs.

L49BYZh.jpg
 

corpse

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Jun 9, 2007
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4,876
I never knew that acetone would bind (basically) plastic to anything other than plastic.
Who woulda thunk.
 

sws1

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Dec 4, 2001
Messages
2,846
Now the binding is ready to be routed. Florian uses acetone to glue on the binding . The acetone melts the celluloid that makes it attach to the
Brazilian rosewood.
Gibson uses glue instead, which is quicker and cheaper, but not historically correct.

So vintage Gibson glued the body binding on, glued the tops to backs, glued the necks to the body, glued the fretboard to the neck, glued the holly veneer to the headstock, glued the headstock wings to the headstock, glued the nut to the neck...but used ACETONE to attach the fretboard binding? Sounds strange.
 

Gold Tone

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Apr 2, 2002
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6,825
So vintage Gibson glued the body binding on, glued the tops to backs, glued the necks to the body, glued the fretboard to the neck, glued the holly veneer to the headstock, glued the headstock wings to the headstock, glued the nut to the neck...but used ACETONE to attach the fretboard binding? Sounds strange.

Acetone is a superb plastic "welding" reagent

The reason glue was used for the other bits you mention is that none of those other bits are plastic...they are all wood. Acetone doesn't "melt" wood
 

majorminor

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Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Messages
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Acetone is a superb plastic "welding" reagent

The reason glue was used for the other bits you mention is that none of those other bits are plastic...they are all wood. Acetone doesn't "melt" wood

So, if Acetone doesn't "melt" wood, why was it apparently used to attach the binding to the (wooden) neck? Surely, it wouldn't work?

So, the statement that it WAS used is perhaps incorrect?

This is just getting too complicated........:hmm
 

Orreman

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Jun 20, 2015
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147
So, if Acetone doesn't "melt" wood, why was it apparently used to attach the binding to the (wooden) neck? Surely, it wouldn't work?

So, the statement that it WAS used is perhaps incorrect?

This is just getting too complicated........:hmm

It melts into the wood.
 

0 2339

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Messages
166
hi orreman,

great project - thanks for sharing!

don't know if it was already mentioned but are you using the 50s royalite on this guitar as well? the one that mr jäger mentions on his website....

cheers and good luck
christoph
 

sws1

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Dec 4, 2001
Messages
2,846
Acetone is a superb plastic "welding" reagent

The reason glue was used for the other bits you mention is that none of those other bits are plastic...they are all wood. Acetone doesn't "melt" wood

Why was glue used for the binding on the body? Same material, isn't it?
 

majorminor

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Messages
96
Exactly correct

Yup, I get the "exactly" bit - you are saying that the statement "it melts into the wood" is precise in its meaning.

Not sure about the "correct" bit, though.

Yes, we all know that if you take a pile of Royalite shavings, and put them in a dish of Acetone, the Acetone will melt the Royalite into a "gloop" - perfect for filling in any gaps in your binding, and, indeed, for joining sharp corners in your binding.

Yup, I get that. We know Acetone has the ability to melt stuff. But for two materials to melt into each other, as in "it melts into the wood", then BOTH materials need to be melted.

So, forgive me for saying this, but Acetone does NOT melt wood - no way - it simply cannot do that.

Now, one could argue that if the wood was particularly porous, and you were sure of the fact that you were trying to get the Royalite to adhere to the end grain of the wood, where more open pores would be, then you could perhaps believe that the Acetone could enable the Richlite to somehow sink into the wood whilst still liquid.

However, the wood we are using, Braz Rosewood, is known to be one of the least porous around, and the Royalite needs to adhere to the side gain of the wood.

Put that alongside the fact that Acetone evaporates relatively quickly, and is known to dry out the surface of wood, rather than melting into it, then we are going along way from Physics with this argument.

Whilst agreeing that this "makeover" will result in a beautiful instrument, I worry that we are moving into a "kings new clothes" situation with the Luthiers who carry out this work.

All they have to say is "Gibson did/do it wrong - but we know the right way", and we believe them.

For me, I need more proof than we have been offered up to press.

Already, we have a hugely exaggerated front carve, because, according to "makeover" guys, pre 60's LPs were like that.

But just today, we have pics of a known early burst, with a carve much less than the luthiers would have us believe:

uOfAPU.jpg


But, I guess, if they are selling me the carve, they have to say that theirs is "correct" - yes?.

Maybe there were some that were that way? Who knows?

So now, we are told, 60 years ago, Gibson used acetone to stick Royalite, but now, because Gibson are, I guess, fools, they don't do that anymore.

So, have forensic tests been carried out on 60 year old instruments, in order to detect acetone (you know - that stuff that evaporates very quickly) on the binding joints?

If they have, I would love to see them - as would Gibson I would think, because if it works, it sounds like a cheaper way than introducing glue into the process.


Year on year, Gibson introduce ever more "real" Historics. Why they can't just get it completely right, and have done with it, I don't know. I guess the Marketing Dept. stop them!!:)

But every year, Gibson are slowing chipping away at the Business Model of the "makeover" guys. Every "correct" thing that Gibson add is one less thing that the makeover folks can charge you money for.

Which, for me, is where we are at. Here is a TH guitar - the best that Gibson can (currently) make.

And yet there are still loads of things that can be "improved".

I am not saying that is wrong - good luck to those guys - but I need more than a sweeping statement, which is always "Gibson got it wrong" to justify their "improvements"......:):hmm
 
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marshall1987

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Jan 30, 2005
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3,278
Once again for those who may have missed it:

Nie Zweifel an einen deutschen Handwerker.:peace2
 

Orreman

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Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
147
When it comes to top carves I let these pictures of original '59.s speak for themselves.

They were all different and a lot of them looked like this:
B8k9I2X.jpg

WmmutWQ.jpg

0aaP5gl.jpg


This is what Florian told me about using acetone:
…in fact acetone is used as a solvent which solubilizes and solvates the celluloid and makes it „liquid“. It then becomes sticky and acts as it´s own „glue“ because it becomes a glue. And melts a little bit into the wood as well,


 

marshall1987

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Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
Given a choice, I'd take the guitar behind door No. 2. Thanks.


And just to clarify a thing or two about conventional wood glues:

Hide glue and Titebond are both comprised of polymers that work by means of mechanical bonding. That is.....the glues penetrate into the first few layers of wood cells, and upon drying, form a mechanical bond that is usually stronger than the two pieces of wood being glued.

When acetone is used to partially melt/dissolve celluloid binding to be affixed to a rosewood fingerboard, the process also results in penetration of the solvated material (celluloid binding) into the top layers (cells) of wood. That's how it works. The two pieces are certainly not bonded by electrostatic forces. So it has to be a function of mechanical bonding.
 
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