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True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

Orreman

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Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
147
Damn, sanding a couple of millimeters from the flat part of the top affects tone? There's a lot of folks trying to bash this thread from the start, but now it's getting ridiculous

Good luck and may this guitar be that one!

No, I don't saying that the carving of the top will improve the tone of the guitar. But, I belive that all the things that Florian is doing ,no matter big or small will affect the tone in the end.
The top carve is for 99.990% a estethical improvement, the rest might be tone:)
This makeover isn't just about tone. It's also of course about the looks.
I want it to be as authentic as possible.:)
 
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Tarcisioo

Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
385
No, I don't saying that the carving of the top will improve the tone of the guitar. But, I belive that all the things that Florian is doing ,no matter big or small will affect the tone in the end.
The top carve is for 99.990% a estethical improvement, the rest might be tone:)
This makeover isn't just about tone. It's also of course about the looks.
I want it to be as authentical as possible.:)


I do get what you're doing, and I totally support you. I just don't get all these guys asking why are you doing this, why are you doing that, if changin the carve won't change the tone...

It's not about the tone. It's never just about tone. Nobody spends 200k on a guitar just about the tone. It's all about the experience

And I bet you're having a hell of an experience seeing those pictures, dreaming of when it gets home...
 

marshall1987

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Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
Why is it that some folk never read the original text before chiming in with a comment on a comment by someone else?

Come on then, wise guy - show me where I referred to Japanese people as Japs? :eek:la

Are you Pelman 73? That's what I thought......you're not the PC speech police. It is unwise to jump to conclusions. :##

But you're right about one thing..... I am a wise man.
 

madformac

Active member
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Messages
719
Today Florian started with the top carve.
Can't wait to see the finished result!:rofl







guraTTJ.jpg


jlYk85v.jpg


Might just be an optical illusion but if you are going for a more vintage carve the top deck looks to be too curved to me.
 

RocknRollShakeUp

Active member
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
766
As soon as I saw that gap, I had to instantly wonder if this is where those dreaded "dead" spots on the fingerboard come from that you occasionally experience with guitars? :hmm

You know, I was being facetious talking about Billy Gibbon's guitars with chambered necks, just to make the point that a little mm air gap under the fretboard would likely not make a difference, but you are making an intriguing point.
 

Pellman73

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Aug 9, 2016
Messages
1,762
Are you Pelman 73? That's what I thought......you're not the PC speech police. It is unwise to jump to conclusions. :##

But you're right about one thing..... I am a wise man.

PC police? That's a first for me. the only thing that offends me is the concept of being offended because someone is politically incorrect.

I do think, however, there is a difference between something being un-PC (like saying 'is this rug Oriental') and a derogatory term (like Jap). but these lines blur I'm sure. words are words-- but it is the spirit behind those words and the intention that matters. I don't think majorminor meant anything derogatory. But I also do not think there is any place for the use of racial slurs or derogatory terms here that could be construed as offensive. Thats not being 'PC'. Thats just being kind and respectful to your fellow man.

I've been doing some reading on this. Turns out, as Majorminor pointed out, its not really considered a derogatory term in GB as much as it is here. maybe residual anti-japanese sentiments from WWII pearl harbor, iwojima-- the like made it more so in the states. seems its used much more liberally across the pond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jap

For some reason I felt the need to take up for some imaginary japanese person I thought could be reading this thread and might take offense. why? I have no idea.

and Marshall1987--- I saw you are a descendent of the mccoys. that is fascinating (I was trying to figure out what your avatar was) of course I certainly don't want to get in any major feuds with you sir. north carolina is close-- and my family is small and would be easily wiped out by the likes of your clan.

please lets get back to taking about this guitar rebuild. I regret my snarky post which has created this mess because I'm not here to really get involved with these kinds of discussions. I'm here to learn about les paul guitars and be with people who share my passion for them.

majorminor I'm buying you a virtual pint and I hope you will drink w me.

:peace2
 

Orreman

New member
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
147
Here´s some before pics of the top carve.
Pictures of the new carve will be up soon:)

rqWNcCk.jpg


BN2JZQw.jpg


L0Sz19S.jpg
 

corpse

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
4,876
I love Germany- und mag ich Bavaria am bestens!
Yes I gave him some grief about the conversion- but as an HM owner- I cannot deny the end result feels better.
Now if you were in one of those Marvel movies the actress would pick up the modified LP and the camera would warp into her arm, and the bluish/white energy impulse would course through her hand, into her arm, through the shoulder, past a gangle of arteries in her neck, and into her brain.
And if that actress was Big Al the humidity in certain parts would go up- way up- if ya follow....
Neck feels sexy-carve feels sexy- finish feels sexy- gouges in said finish feel sexy. Look is undeniably sexy- the colors are SO pleasing and realistic.
And the sound is better. There are nuances that weren't there before.
And for a few months (about 18 in my case) it keeps getting "better".
I was just told face-to-face by a well known remaker that his shop could do that to any long tenon guitar. And I am conservative with money to the point of being cheap- that's all.
 

Orreman

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Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
147
And here is the new top carve!!!! I'm super excited about this! I looks amazing!
What do you guys think?

The small marks here and there are from old aging and will be removed in the sanding process.

7rRjDAA.jpg


xaZgfs6.jpg


o5MYneh.jpg


Hkvrghj.jpg


EDnSzFX.jpg
 

marshall1987

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Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
German craftsmanship is without equal. This make over project has got me thinking about my tax refund due.

and

Ja, ich bin ein Berliner from way back.... 1961-1964.
 
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majorminor

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Jan 18, 2017
Messages
96
I think this instrument will look fabulous when it is done, and I am sure that the investment you are putting into it will be well worth it, and will pay you back on the pleasure the thing will be to own and play.

Having said that, I really don't get the "more real" shape of the top.

In your first post, you talked of "New correct top carve. The TH carve is much flatter than a real 59". Now maybe I interpreted that incorrectly. The second sentence sounded to me as if (to be accurate) that the archtop profile needed to be higher.

In reality, the top of the arch is exactly the same (as it has to be), but the larger flatter area around it makes it look higher. And that is not really the same thing....

On his site, Florian describes it slightly differently - he says "recarve the top to vintage correct contours" - which is a less specific description.

Sadly, the pictures on his site, whilst being high res, are almost all stretched out of proportion, so it is simply impossible to see what he means (a shame he doesn't apply his same attention to detail with his web site :) ).

It is, AFAIK, fairly well known that original 50's instruments had the tops shaped by hand, using a stationary belt sander, by guys who "just knew" what shape to make them. In reality, that effectively meant that no 2 were exactly the same.

I've must say that I've had a number of LPs through my hands, and every one seemed a little different. On the very old ones I've seen, some do indeed have fat tops, but none have had such flat edges.

An interesting thing is that Florian makes his own Propeller model - almost a miniature LP, and looking at the pics of that (albeit warped pics!) it does not appear to have anything like the large areas of flat that have been carved into the Les Paul.

I wonder why?

At the end of the day, I guess the makeover guys want their remodels to really "pop" on first sight - and I guess an over exaggerated top carve will do just that.

But that aside, I am sure we are gonna see some better installments of this saga - I look forward to seeing what I am sure will be a great finished product. :hank
 
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zacknorton

Active member
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Aug 26, 2011
Messages
731
That looks fantastic! Nice work florian!

I love this thread,.........at least the pics and posts about The guitar.

Keep those updates flowing!
 

Tarcisioo

Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
385
That looks fantastic! Nice work florian!

I love this thread,.........at least the pics and posts about The guitar.

Keep those updates flowing!

This!! I come everyday to watch this thread and most of the times all we get is some BS unrelated to the guitar

I mean, speech police? PM mods if you're offended, create a new thread at the Backstage, but just don't keep derailing this thread!
 

EdwardR9

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Joined
Aug 25, 2015
Messages
195
This!! I come everyday to watch this thread and most of the times all we get is some BS unrelated to the guitar

I mean, speech police? PM mods if you're offended, create a new thread at the Backstage, but just don't keep derailing this thread!

Come on man !!! I love how everyone tells you how to spend your money around here..... Like a plural marriage.
 

marshall1987

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Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
I'm no expert luthier (or even a decent hack) or claim to fully know what I'm talking about sometimes, but Gibson's process of gluing the fretboard to the neck before gluing the neck to the body always struck me as kind of a 'cart before the horse sort of thing'.

It just seems to me that you would want to ensure that the tenon is firmly seated in the pocket and the maple top and top of the tenon are sanded nice and flush with each other before gluing the fretboard onto the neck.

From what I am seeing in these photos, I've got to wonder if down the line, the fretbord isn't going to eventually ramp up in the neck joint area.

The method Gibson uses to fit the necks to the body insuring a 4[SUP]o[/SUP] pitch angle requires that the completed neck assembly be glued in as one piece. It would be very difficult, if not be impossible, to insure a 4[SUP]o[/SUP] final neck angle if the fingerboard was glued in afterwards.
 

andy k

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Dec 6, 2006
Messages
359
The method Gibson uses to fit the necks to the body insuring a 4[SUP]o[/SUP] pitch angle requires that the completed neck assembly be glued in as one piece. It would be very difficult, if not be impossible, to insure a 4[SUP]o[/SUP] final neck angle if the fingerboard was glued in afterwards.

I'm taking this quote directly from an excellent Japanese book called 'The Gibson', English translation.

In a chapter called,'construction of the original model'

''Point 2
Glued fingerboard

One of the most treasured qualities of the original Les Paul is long sustain.
The way Gibson achieved this was to use very dense woods and to eliminate all unnecessary vibrations.
In general, the fingerboard is glued to the neck before the neck is joined to the body.
But Gibson chose a different method for the the Les Paul.
The order of construction is as follows,
1, Join the neck to the body.
2, Plane and clean the surface on which the fingerboard is attached.
3, Glue the fingerboard onto the neck and body (see diag.4)
Locating pins and numerous clamps are necessary for this operation, but it results in a strong rigid joint, no vibration and lots of sustain''

in a later section, re:- 1975 model, ie. after the first attempts to recreate the Burst,

'' The way the fingerboard was glued on to the neck was changed at that time.
A two pointed plastic dab (?????) was inserted between the neck and fingerboard to prevent them from sliding off each other when glued together''

''the neck joint got smaller, so small that the neck pocket was completely covered by the fingerboard.
Most of the fingerboards were not glued to the body because they were glued to the neck before being joined to the body.
A lot of them have a space between the fingerboard and the top and they buzz in the high positions''

'' These structural features are on all the Les Paul models with maple tops from the Norlin period''

If you look at any build thread, or neck restoration, which I often do, you will see the general method of BUILDING a Les Paul style instrument involves fitting the neck to the body-before the fretboard is attached, which allows the joint to be made tightly.
usually these parts are test fit, then the fretboard can be attached-with the knowledge that the joint is tight.

the method of gluing fretboard to neck-before neck to body relies on tight machining tolerances, and expert adjustments-but allows no visual checking of neck / body joint.

Neck angle, is designed in--so its not a concern for a good neck joint.

It looks to me like methods that were started in the Norlin era, for ease of manufacture have simply been carried on .
I'm Not suggesting this is wrong--Gibson is a massive operation, and CNC machinery allows for tight tolerances, but I'm thinking that when the OP and Florian come to re-attach that neck to that body, they will have a fairly loose joint-before its glued--but i know Florians a genius, I've watched his make-overs before.

check out this restoration from the other place, ( Not Florians work though )which shows a 55 without its fretboard for a few shots---spot any dowels there???

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/showthread.php?t=382928

Good luck with the make-over OP, its going great, and new carve looks fantastic.

cheers guys
andy k
 

sapi

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Mar 7, 2007
Messages
1,292
NICE top Orreman! :salude
From what i see it reminds me a lot of the top carves i've seen on our favourite vintage Gibson books!
Enjoy! :hank:)
 

DoubleBoogie

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Joined
Jun 6, 2004
Messages
4,800
You know, I was being facetious talking about Billy Gibbon's guitars with chambered necks, just to make the point that a little mm air gap under the fretboard would likely not make a difference, but you are making an intriguing point.

Something sure causes them to pop up here and there on guitars and it is something that will cause me to dump an instrument quickly. One of the worst guitars for having a dead spot that I ever picked up was a beautiful butterscotch Fender Tele 52 reissue. There was a range of frets around 12-14 that had no ring and virtually no sustain on the high e and b strings. Four frets lower on the neck and the guitar rang like a bell with those two strings.
 
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