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True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

andy k

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Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
359
andy K..........

"someone respected watching this". You can't be serious? So the rest of us are not "respected"? :bigal

And "shortcuts"; "can of worms". :hmm

You and I must be viewing something completely different cause I ain't seeing it that way. The only "flaw" I have observed thus far is the possibility the maple cap was not sanded down properly in the area of the neck pocket, resulting in a slight gap between the bottom of the outside edges of the fingerboard and maple cap. The method Gibson uses to attach and glue the completed fingerboard to the mahogany neck piece eliminates the likelihood of gaps in the completed neck piece (shown in the attached YouTube video of Gibson Custom Shop). What I saw was a pneumatic press in use to mate these two neck parts together, the entire length of the fingerboard.

Help me understand how a small gap could result from this method of mating two pieces of wood together.

"The OP, and Florian are going where few people would tread" haha. Sounds like you have been watching too many Star Trek re-runs.

The "devils advocate" role playing is disingenuous and borderline comical. :ha It's past time you stop attempting to derail this very informative thread.

thanks,
i knew it was only a matter of time,
step 1, fretboard is attached to neck-in pneumatic press,
step 2, neck assembly is mated to body, and glued and clamped.

unless the guy sticking the body and neck together has x-ray eyes, he cant SEE whats going on underneath.

step 3, fretboard is removed-showing visible gap between neck tenon and level of body cap either side, ie, gap which should not be there--2 flat surfaces pressed in step 1---werent pressed enough???

discussing these pictures, and how the situation has arisen isn't derailing the thread--we arent talking about a gap
'between the bottom of the outside edges of the fingerboard and maple cap' are we??
its a gap between the fretboard and the neck.

I'm here to help, and respect all you guys, just there has been no possible explanations given--so far.

live long and prosper :dude:
 

RocknRollShakeUp

Active member
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
766
Can you imagine what those horrid hand built things from back in 1959 would look like if you took them apart?:spabout

That's what I was thinking! That "flaw" may be more common than we realize and is probably due to the inherent tolerance gaps built into the system to mass produce guitars. These things are not instruments that one master builder pours over with a fine tooth comb and makes everything perfect. So long as the tolerance gap or "flaw" doesn't affect the tone, playability or even superficial fit and finish of the guitar, then the guitar can still be a brilliant tool to make glorious music and make the muses weep.

I don't have a TH. I have two Historics. I haven't gotten into a TH because the cost/benefit analysis doesn't make sense for me personally, at this point. But if I had a TH I wouldn't get a groin hair in a knot worrying about a potential mm of space sinisterly lurking underneath my fretboard. If it sounds good, plays good, looks good, it's good!

If I wanted as close to perfect as I can get, I'd get a used Historic and send it for a make over. And even then some turds are produced.
 

andy k

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
359
That's what I was thinking! That "flaw" may be more common than we realize and is probably due to the inherent tolerance gaps built into the system to mass produce guitars. These things are not instruments that one master builder pours over with a fine tooth comb and makes everything perfect. So long as the tolerance gap or "flaw" doesn't affect the tone, playability or even superficial fit and finish of the guitar, then the guitar can still be a brilliant tool to make glorious music and make the muses weep.

I don't have a TH. I have two Historics. I haven't gotten into a TH because the cost/benefit analysis doesn't make sense for me personally, at this point. But if I had a TH I wouldn't get a groin hair in a knot worrying about a potential mm of space sinisterly lurking underneath my fretboard. If it sounds good, plays good, looks good, it's good!

If I wanted as close to perfect as I can get, I'd get a used Historic and send it for a make over. And even then some turds are produced.

just a point,
they are priced and advertised as being made almost exactly this way,

and I think I may have an explanation--
if the plastic locating dowel was maybe a MM too long for the holes that it fits in, it would cause the press to NOT press the pieces tightly together, just maybe.

I dont want a MM of 'nashville air' between my rosewood fretboard and my long tenon-

so it is a flaw, plastic dowels on fretboards are only there to make things easier for the factory.
 

RocknRollShakeUp

Active member
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
766
just a point,
they are priced and advertised as being made almost exactly this way,

and I think I may have an explanation--
if the plastic locating dowel was maybe a MM too long for the holes that it fits in, it would cause the press to NOT press the pieces tightly together, just maybe.

I dont want a MM of 'nashville air' between my rosewood fretboard and my long tenon-

so it is a flaw, plastic dowels on fretboards are only there to make things easier for the factory.

I guess I never bought into the advertisement hype, I tend to be a very skeptical geezer :dang

Honestly I don't know jackshit about building guitars so I cannot make an intelligent comment regarding your hypothesis. But you may be right.

But to make you feel better, just think of the mm of nashville air as special chambering to help the notes bloom :laugh2:

Andy, you know what this reminds me of, although, it is not quite the same.. Billy Gibbon's guitar that has chambering of the body, neck and headstock!
 
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Big Al

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Apr 24, 2002
Messages
14,537
I do know about building guitars and I know very well the exact methods used in the 50's. It is abundantly clear, Andy, that sweeping statements, declared as fact, in this thread, are instead fanciful fairy tales based upon bullshit.

Know what it is you are spouting off about and stow the sanctimonious outrage.

You might have a minor point about the maple deck, on this one guitar, but that is all.


To the op, what a pretty guitar. I think a more vivid burst will pop that top and I hope you will end up with a musical soulmate.
 

andy k

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
359
I do know about building guitars and I know very well the exact methods used in the 50's. It is abundantly clear, Andy, that sweeping statements, declared as fact, in this thread, are instead fanciful fairy tales based upon bullshit.

Know what it is you are spouting off about and stow the sanctimonious outrage.

You might have a minor point about the maple deck, on this one guitar, but that is all.


To the op, what a pretty guitar. I think a more vivid burst will pop that top and I hope you will end up with a musical soulmate.

Hey,Al,
I'm here to learn, and am only discussing what we've learned so far.
the pictures tell their own story-did they locate fretboards with dowels in the 50's?
might this modern method to aid production-and-putting boards on necks before necks on bodies, have introduced a possible problem in structural stability?
just looking for some answers, not spouting fanciful fairy tales,
thanks for the input.
carry on.
cheers guys.
andy k
 

Orreman

New member
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
147
Hi guys!

As promised, here´s some pictures of the neck tenon and cavity.
Next step for Florian is the top carve. Really looking forward to see the old school dish:)

CZEzVro.jpg


eG2BIUV.jpg


dxoyU5i.jpg


AXpMidd.jpg


dFpBvSw.jpg
 

El Gringo

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Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,657
Can you imagine what those horrid hand built things from back in 1959 would look like if you took them apart?:spabout
Thank you for being the voice of reason .This is getting to be over kill on Gibson Custom .
 

J T

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Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
10,501
Hi guys!

As promised, here´s some pictures of the neck tenon and cavity.
Next step for Florian is the top carve. Really looking forward to see the old school dish:)

CZEzVro.jpg


Very interesting photo story on your guitar.

I like your decision to make it better.


Looking at this picture, there is a "boxy" seam around the edge of the neck. I thought the neck was one piece. Is that a chisel carving or different pieces of wood mated together?

:)
 

Orreman

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Jun 20, 2015
Messages
147
This thread was never meant to be negative towards Gibson. It was meant to show a cool transformation of a great guitar.
Unfortunately, my guitar seems to have been built on a monday morning.
It was really great from the beginning, but I have tried some of Florians Makeovers and they are on a totally different level.
You can't compare factory made guitars to this kind of workmanship. If Gibson built the Guitars this way, no one could ever afford them.
They have to cut some corners to speed up the manufacturing process and keep the cost down for the end user. I totally understand that.
But a fretboard that´s almost loose is not ok.

I know that many of you guys question how I can do this to a TH guitar and the answer is. Because I want to. I really want this to be the best guitar it can be.
I never liked the finish on it. It felt really sticky and weird. Also the fretboard felt grainy and cheap. These are two of the reasons that started me thinking about a makeover.

Please sit back and enjoy the show! I will post pictures as soon as I get them from Florian.

Stay positive guys!

Next up is top carve:)
 
Last edited:

Cav

Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
214
This thread was never meant to be negative towards Gibson. It was meant to show a cool transformation of a great guitar.
Unfortunately, my guitar seems to have been built on a monday morning.
It was really great from the beginning, but I have tried some of Florians Makeovers and they are on a totally different level.
You can't compare factory made guitars with this kind of workmanship. If Gibson built the Guitars this way, no one could ever afford them.
They have to cut some corners to speed up the manufacturing process and keep the cost down for the end user. I totally understand that.
But a fretboard that´s almost loose is not ok.

I know that many of you guys question how I can do this to a TH guitar and the answer is. Because I want to. I really want this to be the best guitar it can be.
I never liked the finish on it. It felt really sticky and weird. Also the fretboard felt grainy and cheap.

Please sit back and enjoy the show! I will post pictures as soon as I get them from Florian.

Stay positive guys!

Next up is top carve:)

I totally agree! I really enjoy following your makeover. :dude:
 

white room

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Jan 28, 2005
Messages
108
I'm no expert luthier (or even a decent hack) or claim to fully know what I'm talking about sometimes, but Gibson's process of gluing the fretboard to the neck before gluing the neck to the body always struck me as kind of a 'cart before the horse sort of thing'.

It just seems to me that you would want to ensure that the tenon is firmly seated in the pocket and the maple top and top of the tenon are sanded nice and flush with each other before gluing the fretboard onto the neck.

From what I am seeing in these photos, I've got to wonder if down the line, the fretbord isn't going to eventually ramp up in the neck joint area.
 

The Shifter

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Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
3,397
I know that many of you guys question how I can do this to a TH guitar and the answer is. Because I want to.
Stay positive guys!

DING DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner.

Thanks for the thread. Looking forward to more pics, especially when Florian starts putting on the lacquer.
 

majorminor

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Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Messages
96
This thread was never meant to be negative towards Gibson. It was meant to show a cool transformation of a great guitar.
Unfortunately, my guitar seems to have been built on a monday morning.
It was really great from the beginning, but I have tried some of Florians Makeovers and they are on a totally different level.
You can't compare factory made guitars to this kind of workmanship. If Gibson built the Guitars this way, no one could ever afford them.

You are right, of course, but the problem, for me, is not how Gibson make Guitars.
No, it is the way they market them that is causing the problem.


Gibson is, essentially, a factory operation. The regular "USA" models are completely factory built (just like they were in the 50's!). And I think we all accept that.


But when Gibson talk of the "Custom Shop", they want us to believe that these products are from somewhere far more special than just a factory. Even the name - Custom Shop - infers that the "shop" is a special place, where "custom" work is done. To quote Gibson themselves - "For over 20 years Gibson Custom has proudly been the torchbearer of, not only Gibson’s legacy, but also American craftsmanship and the value of human ingenuity".
And look at the pricing - a "regular Trad T has a list price of $2299. Decide to go "Custom" and buy into that "salesspeak", and a similar looking Historic will cost me $6499- almost double, and if I buy into the sales premise completely,and go "True Historic" I'll have to put down $8599.


Now, OK, the Historic has a certain number of "improvements" over the vanilla model - and the TH has even more of them. But are they really worth SO much more?
Well, perhaps they would be if they were indeed what Gibson try to make out - special models FAR removed from the cheapo stuff going on next door in the main factory.


What this makeover has shown us is that this is perhaps not the case. The lady planing headstock overlays plainly did them for all instruments, even the THs - she ran them through the planer an extra time for the expensive stuff - does that double/quadruple the manufacturing cost?


And it certainly now looks like, in essential parts of the production process - like gluing the neck to the body, ALL the instruments get the same treatment by the same workers.
Essentially, what the Custom Shop is doing is "polishing a turd".


I hope you get the meaning of that - certainly used in the UK - pretty much means that if you take something inferior, and spend alot of time blinging it up, it will still,at heart, be the same inferior product.
And next year, Gibson way well find something else they can bling up, at an even more eyewatering price.


And is it really Gibson making them ever more real, or is it simply deliberately making the cheap ones "wrong", in order to increase the demand for the "correct ones"?


I currently have just three Gibsons - only one cost over $2500, and I am perfectly happy with them, and 99% of anyone who ever sees them will not question for a second why I didn't spend another $6000 to get something that only I would know was "better" ....:)


I know that many of you guys question how I can do this to a TH guitar and the answer is. Because I want to. I really want this to be the best guitar it can be.

Stay positive guys!

Next up is top carve:)

That's cool - your money, your decision.

The only thing that I would find troubling is that Florian, in doing an amazing Makeover, will have removed pretty much all the extra bling that the Custom Shop added to make it TH spec. Underneath is just a regular Gibson USA instrument! :dang
 

El Gringo

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Apr 8, 2015
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So to follow your thinking , then you are almost doubling the price for said instrument ? How does that make sense in the essence that you are having this rebuilt a second time at the markup ? for something already built ?
 

Orreman

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Jun 20, 2015
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So to follow your thinking , then you are almost doubling the price for said instrument ? How does that make sense in the essence that you are having this rebuilt a second time at the markup ? for something already built ?

I don´t really care about the cost. I bought this guitar at a silly good price. I work in the music business here in Sweden and have great contacts.
It will not be the same guitar anymore. It will be something much better and what I want a high end Les Paul to be.
 

andy k

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Dec 6, 2006
Messages
359
Thank you, majorminor for your well worded post,
I think you get the point I was trying to make,
I'm amazed at the lengths we all go to get where we want.
Gibson is just trying to keep up with our desires, but always seems to make a mess of it--as a company.
We are willing to pay the price, if it gets us closer to the instrument we all want,
and now its got to the point, where they can't get there.
They have a custom shop, that creates fantastic works of art, but there is still the mass produced element.
They have been increasing prices--with each new development, and now they are asking the same price for a custom shop instrument as a real vintage item,
I'm talking about custom shop juniors here,
So , when we have an opportunity to examine whats going on , with the OPs brave quest, we should at least look at where we stand.
I'll repeat it, I'm not bashing Gibson, I'm not trying to upset the 'experts', I LOVE the LES PAUL, and am just expressing my feelings that maybe we are being too blinded sometimes by the hype,
We now have pickup rings , by Gibson, at a molecular level, but we are still getting basic construction WRONG.
Al called me out, as an expert, with experience of 50's Gibsons, and I sincerely respect all the experts here, I may not own any real 50's stuff, but I do own a few re-issues, replicas and copies--and I also have a library of books about all the stuff that helps me get better as a guitarist, so I think I do have a say.
Its not rocket science, its wire and wood, and I think nothing these days is too precious to call out if its BS.
peace
andy k

PS, I cant wait to see the results, Florians work never disappoints.
 

Orreman

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Jun 20, 2015
Messages
147
Very interesting photo story on your guitar.

I like your decision to make it better.


Looking at this picture, there is a "boxy" seam around the edge of the neck. I thought the neck was one piece. Is that a chisel carving or different pieces of wood mated together?

:)

Its all the same piece. Looks a bit weird after being glued in.
 
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