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True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

Orreman

New member
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
147
Here´s a picture of the old fretboard.
As you can see there was almost no glue where the fretboard was loose. Florian told me the there was only some trapped Nashville air:)

We were both pretty baffled to see this on a Gibson flagship guitar.

xGT3pBv.jpg
 

andy k

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
359
weird,
watched the vid--fretboard is attached to neck before neck is attached to body,
yet it seems here as if the body either side of the mortice prevented the fretboard from being attached to the neck????
very strange, and I'm sure anybody building something like this by hand would have at least made sure there was a flat surface to bond to,-- the way the fretboard is attached before the neck is installed makes it difficult to see if anything fits well-(sides and bottom of tenon, they seem to rely on the fretboard to be sitting flat on the maple top, which hides a lot of details)
pretty shameful really on such an expensive instrument. A lot of work (and money) goes into getting it to look like its been played a lot, and yet the carcass isnt even glued solidly??
I'm not hating on Gibson, just kind of surprised that they'd let this happen on the flagship model.
the OP's fretboard cant have been attached to the neck in the same way the ones are done in the video--you see the part where the board is glued up and then clamped down in a press, yet on his there is a gap between the maple top and the tenon???????
strange days.
 

Pellman73

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
1,762
weird,
watched the vid--fretboard is attached to neck before neck is attached to body,
yet it seems here as if the body either side of the mortice prevented the fretboard from being attached to the neck????
very strange, and I'm sure anybody building something like this by hand would have at least made sure there was a flat surface to bond to,-- the way the fretboard is attached before the neck is installed makes it difficult to see if anything fits well-(sides and bottom of tenon, they seem to rely on the fretboard to be sitting flat on the maple top, which hides a lot of details)
pretty shameful really on such an expensive instrument. A lot of work (and money) goes into getting it to look like its been played a lot, and yet the carcass isnt even glued solidly??
I'm not hating on Gibson, just kind of surprised that they'd let this happen on the flagship model.
the OP's fretboard cant have been attached to the neck in the same way the ones are done in the video--you see the part where the board is glued up and then clamped down in a press, yet on his there is a gap between the maple top and the tenon???????
strange days.

It looks to me that if the body joint pocket is ever so slightly too small front to back that when you slide the Neck/fretboard combo in there like the dude does just after he slathers the glue on the tenon, the pocket and the cap it will HAVE To pry the fretboard off the tenon for it to fit, and then you have only the edges of the fretboard contacting the cap but no longer does it contact the neck / tenon.

perhaps this is by design to always make sure the joint is tight?
 

andy k

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
359
It looks to me that if the body joint pocket is ever so slightly too small front to back that when you slide the Neck/fretboard combo in there like the dude does just after he slathers the glue on the tenon, the pocket and the cap it will HAVE To pry the fretboard off the tenon for it to fit, and then you have only the edges of the fretboard contacting the cap but no longer does it contact the neck / tenon.

perhaps this is by design to always make sure the joint is tight?

c'mon.
I mean we go to ridiculous lengths to get these things hisorically accurate.
some of us go as far as buying a new instrument from Gibson,and then paying guys like Florian, and HM to make them even MORE accurate than the most recent offerings.
I love the Les Paul, and am kind of horrified that this situation has arisen.

How can it be by design-to make sure the joint is tight?? if it results in the fretboard being 'pried' off the neck???
I've gone down the replica route to get my own 'historically' correct Les Paul, and there is no way a loose glue joint would be acceptable.
The glue is meant to be a thin layer , the joint should be tight, and hot hide glue is meant to be the best glue for the job.
This makeover has opened a huge can of worms, and I hope Kevin from the custom shop will chime in here--cos theres some explaining needs to be done.
If i had recently bought a TRUE Historic, I would be seriously worried that this method of gluing in the neck could cause problems down the line, after any warantee period has expired--we all know about the neck rise problem dont we??
In fact, i'll have to get my copy of BOTB out and refresh my memory on it too, because if this is how they are being shipped out now--I dont think theres much hope for the future.
Its really sad that a guy has taken the bold step of having a makeover done , and on a TRUE historic, to have this come to light.
I hope some of the real experts will chime in on this, its not a problem that will go away.
cheers guys
andy k
 

andy k

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
359
Sorry to the OP for further derailling this thread, i cant wait to see the results, but this latest thing has made me pretty angry really.
I bought 2 new (to me) Gibsons around december--a 2013 SGJ, which was cheap, and is a great instrument-after i upgraded pickups and electrics--the wood was good, and it has a laminated fretboard-remember that fiasco.
then I bought a 2015 Les Paul CM, really nice 3 peice body, thick maple top on a thinner SOLID back, carved top-but thinner overall than a Standard--think carved top junior.Maple neck, THICK solid rosewood fretboard, and Gforce tuners. It was great as it stood, but i changed the wraptail and put a good pickup in it. FANTASTIC instrument, innovative, practical, and probably the cheapest american gibson available, less than 400 english pounds. Tronical charge £150 for the G force system alone , aftermarket.
Here we have a flagship instrument--which over here would cost me about 7K, and this is how they are fixing the fretboard to the neck??
It takes a guy who has bought this instrument-at the price asked, and is then going to spend about half again to get it how he wants it,, which exposes the flaw.
WTF is going on??
In the video--we see a couple of things used to justify the price of a TRUE Historic,,the headstock overlay is planed twice to make it thinner??
and then Henry shows us how the binding is rolled, on a fretboard attached to a neck, ?? as far as i know, a rolled binding is the result of many hours of playing--or a setup that is requested--so it shouldnt really be 'rolled' where the hands wont wrap around the neck--this is complete BULLSHIT,
There should be no monday morning-friday afternoon guitars in the TRUE historic range, and my 2 recent purchases -at least on the outside--are great examples of mass produced-fairly priced instruments.
Somebody should be accountable for this situation--their name is on the finishing slip, and if I owned a guitar built by the same guy-I would be demanding my money back right now.
I love Gibson, as a name behind a great instrument--but I hate what it has become.
TRULY HORRIFIC.
rant over--
look forward to the replies.
cheers guys
andy k.
 

zacknorton

Active member
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
731
Well said Andy k!

Ive played some of those cm guitars too....they were really good. Surprisingly good. Almost as surprising as the attention to detail florian is putting into this rebuild....and almost as surprising again at the lack of QC the guitar got from Gibson originally.
 

marshall1987

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
Here´s a picture of the old fretboard.
As you can see there was almost no glue where the fretboard was loose. Florian told me the there was only some trapped Nashville air:)

We were both pretty baffled to see this on a Gibson flagship guitar.

xGT3pBv.jpg

Orreman............what method did Florian employ to remove the fingerboard from your guitar? Did it require considerable force, or did it simply drop off? And what would you normally expect to see of any remaining glue after the fingerboard comes off? Small amounts, or big globs of hide glue?

I'm guessing Florian used a heat blanket to melt the glue, but there are other ways to remove the fingerboard.
 

Pellman73

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
1,762
c'mon.
I mean we go to ridiculous lengths to get these things hisorically accurate.
some of us go as far as buying a new instrument from Gibson,and then paying guys like Florian, and HM to make them even MORE accurate than the most recent offerings.
I love the Les Paul, and am kind of horrified that this situation has arisen.

How can it be by design-to make sure the joint is tight?? if it results in the fretboard being 'pried' off the neck???
I've gone down the replica route to get my own 'historically' correct Les Paul, and there is no way a loose glue joint would be acceptable.
The glue is meant to be a thin layer , the joint should be tight, and hot hide glue is meant to be the best glue for the job.
This makeover has opened a huge can of worms, and I hope Kevin from the custom shop will chime in here--cos theres some explaining needs to be done.
If i had recently bought a TRUE Historic, I would be seriously worried that this method of gluing in the neck could cause problems down the line, after any warantee period has expired--we all know about the neck rise problem dont we??
In fact, i'll have to get my copy of BOTB out and refresh my memory on it too, because if this is how they are being shipped out now--I dont think theres much hope for the future.
Its really sad that a guy has taken the bold step of having a makeover done , and on a TRUE historic, to have this come to light.
I hope some of the real experts will chime in on this, its not a problem that will go away.
cheers guys
andy k

I guess what I meant was in a mass production model like they have (as Shifter originally pointed out) where they have a bunch of necks and a bunch of bodies and you want the joint to be tight if you have to err on one side or the other you'd make a shade too tight rather than too loose. and too tight will mean that the thing to give a little would be the fretboard off the neck tenon.

what really doesn't make sense to me is why not just join the neck to the body without the fretboard on, get the surface between the cap and the tenon exactly perfectly smooth and level, and then glue the fingerboard on and it will be perfect every time.
 

andy k

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
359
I guess what I meant was in a mass production model like they have (as Shifter originally pointed out) where they have a bunch of necks and a bunch of bodies and you want the joint to be tight if you have to err on one side or the other you'd make a shade too tight rather than too loose. and too tight will mean that the thing to give a little would be the fretboard off the neck tenon.


what really doesn't make sense to me is why not just join the neck to the body without the fretboard on, get the surface between the cap and the tenon exactly perfectly smooth and level, and then glue the fingerboard on and it will be perfect every time.

THIS,exactly.
NECK joints cant really be TOO tight, they should hold without glue.

yet the video is showing TRUE historics being made,
the premiums being paid for these instruments are to allow for the time and effort it takes to put a lot of dings, scratches and wear on it.
If the fretboard comes loose later---well at least its historically accurate--NOT.
This process has also showed us the historically correct plastic locating dowels used to help them get the fretboard straight, and the new FLATTER top carves we are all desperate for,-- unbelievable.
The Emperor has no clothes.
cheers guys
andy k.
 

Orreman

New member
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
147
Today Florian pulled the neck off the guitar!
Guess if Gibson had done a proper job glueing it in?
The answer will be revealed tomorrow:)

YQdFlRA.jpg
 

Classic

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Joined
Dec 6, 2004
Messages
1,624
Today Florian pulled the neck off the guitar!
Guess if Gibson had done a proper job glueing it in?
The answer will be revealed tomorrow:)

YQdFlRA.jpg

My guess is no based on taking past performance (comments in this thread) as a guide to the future.
 

andy k

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
359
Thinking about what we have so far,
bodies and necks are cut on CNC machine, with a small tolerance, which one would hope would allow for a small amount of fine tuning.
The wood is kiln dried to a certain amount of acceptable moisture content--there should be no real shrinkage in the time it would take Gibson to 'mate' neck and body---the neck and body should be a tight fit.
The photo above, showed maybe a millimetre gap between the maple cap and the tenon, and therefore the fretboard, a millimetre of glue seems too much.
I know its hot hide glue, but still, thats not good.
The way they are fixing neck to body--with fretboard attached, how can they know its not a loose fit, with a lot of glue.
I certainly expected better attention to 'detail' than this from the top of the range model.
I dread to think what we will find tomorrow.
sorry
andy k
 

1993

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Feb 14, 2017
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Fascinating thread indeed. I guess this makeover thing is similar to some folks as is aging process. I own a '63 Landau relic Strat and love it, but do my best not to get my Ruokangas Unicorn dinged - OTOH if I was to buy another Ruokangas it'd definitely receive aging treatment. If this makeover gets Orreman to pick up this very guitar more or just pleases his eye, then in my book it's a success. His money, his choice etc.
 

andy k

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Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
359
Subscribed!
Fascinating thread indeed. I guess this makeover thing is similar to some folks as is aging process. I own a '63 Landau relic Strat and love it, but do my best not to get my Ruokangas Unicorn dinged - OTOH if I was to buy another Ruokangas it'd definitely receive aging treatment. If this makeover gets Orreman to pick up this very guitar more or just pleases his eye, then in my book it's a success. His money, his choice etc.

AGREED,
and appreciating the insights it offers.
 

CDaughtry

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner and Moderator
Joined
Jul 16, 2001
Messages
12,646
Thinking about what we have so far,
bodies and necks are cut on CNC machine, with a small tolerance, which one would hope would allow for a small amount of fine tuning.
The wood is kiln dried to a certain amount of acceptable moisture content--there should be no real shrinkage in the time it would take Gibson to 'mate' neck and body---the neck and body should be a tight fit.
The photo above, showed maybe a millimetre gap between the maple cap and the tenon, and therefore the fretboard, a millimetre of glue seems too much.
I know its hot hide glue, but still, thats not good.
The way they are fixing neck to body--with fretboard attached, how can they know its not a loose fit, with a lot of glue.
I certainly expected better attention to 'detail' than this from the top of the range model.
I dread to think what we will find tomorrow.
sorry
andy k

Can you imagine what those horrid hand built things from back in 1959 would look like if you took them apart?:spabout
 

andy k

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
359
Thanks for posting Charley,
I'm glad someone respected is watching this.
I guess the guitars built in the 50's were built to last-60 odd years.
and i'm not suggesting that these new ones aren't.
I'm just calling it how i see it--
we are expected to believe that the new ones are built to an acceptable level of stability--, and we are TOLD that they are the most historically accurate re-issues to date.
The video, and this makeover proves that is BULL.
and it takes a brave man to go as far as to lose all warrantee, to get that step further in his quest for accuracy, to expose that there are flaws.
So there we go, its now just a name, and another brand.
The ageing thing, is another thread--and the work Murphy began, and perfected deserves all the credit --works of art.
but I personally think its gone too far, now we have proof that there are shortcuts being taken.
A can of worms has been opened, and I think the silence is deafening from the people who could offer ANY explanation.
This guitar, may be a one off--it should have a piece of paper with it, showing who did every step of the work on it, even my sub £400 imported 2015 CM came with a polaroid showing it being set up.
Another little touch that gave me hope there was some care being taken.
The OP, and Florian are going where few people would tread,
somethings gone wrong--
 

Pellman73

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Aug 9, 2016
Messages
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Can you imagine what those horrid hand built things from back in 1959 would look like if you took them apart?:spabout

:hmm

im guessing you are making the point that there may have been more errors when they made the original bursts by hand and thus this is all getting super nit picky? And those errors are part of the charm and lore of those instruments? I hear you!

however to play devils advocate here

I think it also possible that the newer production techniques and CNC Machines (by the very nature that it's NOT by hand) makes these fundamentally different things all together (that when we are getting a 'TRUE HISTORIC'--- its really not all that truly historic.

and maybe there was that much more attention being paid to some details (like the tenon being flush w the cap) back then that now is not important because of the way they are doing a mass production?

That making them by hand back in the day meant that while the instruments may have all had their own differences and quirks and inconsistencies but the overall quality of the finished product was better because humans were more involved in the process?

Honestly I have no idea! But you sir, would certainly have something valid to offer on this subject. would be curious to hear your thoughts.
 

marshall1987

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,278
Thanks for posting Charley,
I'm glad someone respected is watching this.
I guess the guitars built in the 50's were built to last-60 odd years.
and i'm not suggesting that these new ones aren't.
I'm just calling it how i see it--
we are expected to believe that the new ones are built to an acceptable level of stability--, and we are TOLD that they are the most historically accurate re-issues to date.
The video, and this makeover proves that is BULL.
and it takes a brave man to go as far as to lose all warrantee, to get that step further in his quest for accuracy, to expose that there are flaws.
So there we go, its now just a name, and another brand.
The ageing thing, is another thread--and the work Murphy began, and perfected deserves all the credit --works of art.
but I personally think its gone too far, now we have proof that there are shortcuts being taken.
A can of worms has been opened,
and I think the silence is deafening from the people who could offer ANY explanation.
This guitar, may be a one off--it should have a piece of paper with it, showing who did every step of the work on it, even my sub £400 imported 2015 CM came with a polaroid showing it being set up.
Another little touch that gave me hope there was some care being taken.
The OP, and Florian are going where few people would tread,
somethings gone wrong
--

andy K..........

"someone respected watching this". You can't be serious? So the rest of us are not "respected"? :bigal

And "shortcuts"; "can of worms". :hmm

You and I must be viewing something completely different cause I ain't seeing it that way. The only "flaw" I have observed thus far is the possibility the maple cap was not sanded down properly in the area of the neck pocket, resulting in a slight gap between the bottom of the outside edges of the fingerboard and maple cap. The method Gibson uses to attach and glue the completed fingerboard to the mahogany neck piece eliminates the likelihood of gaps in the completed neck piece (shown in the attached YouTube video of Gibson Custom Shop). What I saw was a pneumatic press in use to mate these two neck parts together, the entire length of the fingerboard.

Help me understand how a small gap could result from this method of mating two pieces of wood together.

"The OP, and Florian are going where few people would tread" haha. Sounds like you have been watching too many Star Trek re-runs.

The "devils advocate" role playing is disingenuous and borderline comical. :ha It's past time you stop attempting to derail this very informative thread.
 
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