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  1. #161
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Today Florian routed the new Brazilian fretboard to the right dimensions and radius. Picked this out of 3 different boards. Love the grain!

    (the table is also made of Brazilian rosewood)


  2. #162

    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Cool to see the process. Thanks for posting the pics.

    it kinda makes me wonder though, why wouldn't you just have him build you a guitar? Seems like there is a lot of work going into this.

  3. #163
    Les Paul Forum Member sharky's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    great and exciting project.

    Do you know how Florian peeled off the fretboard that clean?

  4. #164
    Les Paul Forum Member corpse's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Posts from a few years ago show removing a couple of frets near #20 and 22, drilling a small hole and injecting steam for several minutes, to loosen it. Then a special planing tool with a handle on either end is run between the board and the neck to get the rest off.
    Search "bavarian" on here.

  5. #165
    Les Paul Forum Member GuitarMikey's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    I think the board above is a new board. Sounds like he picked it out of 3 choices.
    Looks awesome!
    GuitarMikey

  6. #166
    Les Paul Forum Member Tarcisioo's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by geddy402 View Post
    Cool to see the process. Thanks for posting the pics.

    it kinda makes me wonder though, why wouldn't you just have him build you a guitar? Seems like there is a lot of work going into this.

    You never know how how a guitar will sound until it's all set up. That's the risk you take when building guitars.

    You still have risks on makeovers, but when you know a guitar already sounds good, that's hard to change

  7. #167
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    The new fretboard fretted with Dunlop 6100


  8. #168
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by geddy402 View Post
    Cool to see the process. Thanks for posting the pics.

    it kinda makes me wonder though, why wouldn't you just have him build you a guitar? Seems like there is a lot of work going into this.
    I like the idea of taking something already existing and making it better.

  9. #169
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by sharky View Post
    great and exciting project.

    Do you know how Florian peeled off the fretboard that clean?
    The board on the picture is brand new. I haven't got a glue how he removed the old one.
    He doesn't share his techniques which I totally respect.

  10. #170
    Les Paul Forum Member sapi's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Great pics bro keep them coming!
    ~ Shanti ~

    "Without the buzz and the feel, we can go to sleep..."

  11. #171
    Les Paul Forum Member corpse's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/sh...hlight=florian

    This thread shows the tool used to remove the neck at Florian's shop.
    Last edited by corpse; 02-24-17 at 07:42 AM.

  12. #172
    Les Paul Forum Member sharky's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by corpse View Post
    Posts from a few years ago show removing a couple of frets near #20 and 22, drilling a small hole and injecting steam for several minutes, to loosen it. Then a special planing tool with a handle on either end is run between the board and the neck to get the rest off.
    Search "bavarian" on here.

    I remember seeing the tool mentioned in a makeover thread a while ago. The tool you mean is a peeling iron, but I was wondering how it would take off the FB that clean. I was talking to a friend of mine who runs a repair shop and builds some fantastic guitars himself, about taking down the FB on my LP and replace it with some old stock BRW he has sitting since the 70s. OK, he's much more into Fenders, so binding is not his world, but he wouldn't like to do it.


  13. #173
    Les Paul Forum Member J T's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    That woodworking tool is also known as a drawknife.
    The farther you go, the closer you are.

  14. #174
    All Access/Backstage Pass Wilko's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    frets before inlays? interesting.

  15. #175
    Les Paul Forum Member J.D.'s Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    +1

  16. #176
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilko View Post
    frets before inlays? interesting.
    Yeah you would think the fingerboard inlays/markers would go in first. Makes it easier to sand and polish them in the direction of the grain. However, I have had inlays upgraded on my 2000 R9, with the frets on, and it came out just fine.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

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  17. #177

    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarcisioo View Post
    You never know how how a guitar will sound until it's all set up. That's the risk you take when building guitars.

    You still have risks on makeovers, but when you know a guitar already sounds good, that's hard to change
    Intersting perspective, thanks.

    I guess if thenguitar already sounds good I would leave it alone. But, I totally understand trying to get it as close to original specs as you can.

  18. #178
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Now the fretboard is bound with Cellulose nitrate




    Many of you are probably wondering why there's no inlays yet.

    Florian supprised me with this. They have already been pressed in while the fretboard was radiused, but removed to be aged and shrunken.

    This is how they look now!!

    Last edited by Orreman; 02-23-17 at 10:27 AM.

  19. #179
    Les Paul Forum Member J.D.'s Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Ah, that makes sense.

  20. #180

    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Orreman View Post
    Now the fretboard is bound with Cellulose nitrate
    You mean Celluloid


    Very nice project!!

  21. #181
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Nie Zweifel an einen deutschen Handwerker.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
    London, England

  22. #182
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Now the binding is ready to be routed. Florian uses acetone to glue on the binding . The acetone melts the celluloid that makes it attach to the
    Brazilian rosewood.
    Gibson uses glue instead, which is quicker and cheaper, but not historically correct.




    Florian uses a Schanbacher & Ebner from 1959 to route the binding flush to the fretboard.
    This is the exact same type of machine that Gibson used in their factory in Kalamazoo.




    Binding routed. Still a lot of work the get the famous fret end nibs.


  23. #183
    Les Paul Forum Member StSpider's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Beautiful. I always were a sucker for these makeover threads.
    - 2006 Les Paul Historic R4 Oxblood
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    There is NO substitute for Loudness.

  24. #184
    Les Paul Forum Member corpse's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    I never knew that acetone would bind (basically) plastic to anything other than plastic.
    Who woulda thunk.

  25. #185
    Les Paul Forum Member sws1's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Orreman View Post
    Now the binding is ready to be routed. Florian uses acetone to glue on the binding . The acetone melts the celluloid that makes it attach to the
    Brazilian rosewood.
    Gibson uses glue instead, which is quicker and cheaper, but not historically correct.
    So vintage Gibson glued the body binding on, glued the tops to backs, glued the necks to the body, glued the fretboard to the neck, glued the holly veneer to the headstock, glued the headstock wings to the headstock, glued the nut to the neck...but used ACETONE to attach the fretboard binding? Sounds strange.

  26. #186
    Les Paul Forum Member The Shifter's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    I'm guessing you could probably eat off the floor of Florian's bathroom.

  27. #187

    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by sws1 View Post
    So vintage Gibson glued the body binding on, glued the tops to backs, glued the necks to the body, glued the fretboard to the neck, glued the holly veneer to the headstock, glued the headstock wings to the headstock, glued the nut to the neck...but used ACETONE to attach the fretboard binding? Sounds strange.
    Acetone is a superb plastic "welding" reagent

    The reason glue was used for the other bits you mention is that none of those other bits are plastic...they are all wood. Acetone doesn't "melt" wood

  28. #188

    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Tone View Post
    Acetone is a superb plastic "welding" reagent

    The reason glue was used for the other bits you mention is that none of those other bits are plastic...they are all wood. Acetone doesn't "melt" wood
    So, if Acetone doesn't "melt" wood, why was it apparently used to attach the binding to the (wooden) neck? Surely, it wouldn't work?

    So, the statement that it WAS used is perhaps incorrect?

    This is just getting too complicated........

  29. #189
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by majorminor View Post
    So, if Acetone doesn't "melt" wood, why was it apparently used to attach the binding to the (wooden) neck? Surely, it wouldn't work?

    So, the statement that it WAS used is perhaps incorrect?

    This is just getting too complicated........
    It melts into the wood.

  30. #190
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    hi orreman,

    great project - thanks for sharing!

    don't know if it was already mentioned but are you using the 50s royalite on this guitar as well? the one that mr jäger mentions on his website....

    cheers and good luck
    christoph

  31. #191

    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Orreman View Post
    It melts into the wood.
    That's a new one on me, but hey, if you say so

  32. #192

    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Orreman View Post
    It melts into the wood.
    Exactly correct

  33. #193
    Les Paul Forum Member sws1's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Tone View Post
    Acetone is a superb plastic "welding" reagent

    The reason glue was used for the other bits you mention is that none of those other bits are plastic...they are all wood. Acetone doesn't "melt" wood
    Why was glue used for the binding on the body? Same material, isn't it?

  34. #194
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by sws1 View Post
    Why was glue used for the binding on the body? Same material, isn't it?
    No, the binding on the body is a different plastic called Royalite

  35. #195

    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by sws1 View Post
    Why was glue used for the binding on the body? Same material, isn't it?

    Royalite

  36. #196

    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Tone View Post
    Exactly correct
    Yup, I get the "exactly" bit - you are saying that the statement "it melts into the wood" is precise in its meaning.

    Not sure about the "correct" bit, though.

    Yes, we all know that if you take a pile of Royalite shavings, and put them in a dish of Acetone, the Acetone will melt the Royalite into a "gloop" - perfect for filling in any gaps in your binding, and, indeed, for joining sharp corners in your binding.

    Yup, I get that. We know Acetone has the ability to melt stuff. But for two materials to melt into each other, as in "it melts into the wood", then BOTH materials need to be melted.

    So, forgive me for saying this, but Acetone does NOT melt wood - no way - it simply cannot do that.

    Now, one could argue that if the wood was particularly porous, and you were sure of the fact that you were trying to get the Royalite to adhere to the end grain of the wood, where more open pores would be, then you could perhaps believe that the Acetone could enable the Richlite to somehow sink into the wood whilst still liquid.

    However, the wood we are using, Braz Rosewood, is known to be one of the least porous around, and the Royalite needs to adhere to the side gain of the wood.

    Put that alongside the fact that Acetone evaporates relatively quickly, and is known to dry out the surface of wood, rather than melting into it, then we are going along way from Physics with this argument.

    Whilst agreeing that this "makeover" will result in a beautiful instrument, I worry that we are moving into a "kings new clothes" situation with the Luthiers who carry out this work.

    All they have to say is "Gibson did/do it wrong - but we know the right way", and we believe them.

    For me, I need more proof than we have been offered up to press.

    Already, we have a hugely exaggerated front carve, because, according to "makeover" guys, pre 60's LPs were like that.

    But just today, we have pics of a known early burst, with a carve much less than the luthiers would have us believe:



    But, I guess, if they are selling me the carve, they have to say that theirs is "correct" - yes?.

    Maybe there were some that were that way? Who knows?

    So now, we are told, 60 years ago, Gibson used acetone to stick Royalite, but now, because Gibson are, I guess, fools, they don't do that anymore.

    So, have forensic tests been carried out on 60 year old instruments, in order to detect acetone (you know - that stuff that evaporates very quickly) on the binding joints?

    If they have, I would love to see them - as would Gibson I would think, because if it works, it sounds like a cheaper way than introducing glue into the process.


    Year on year, Gibson introduce ever more "real" Historics. Why they can't just get it completely right, and have done with it, I don't know. I guess the Marketing Dept. stop them!!

    But every year, Gibson are slowing chipping away at the Business Model of the "makeover" guys. Every "correct" thing that Gibson add is one less thing that the makeover folks can charge you money for.

    Which, for me, is where we are at. Here is a TH guitar - the best that Gibson can (currently) make.

    And yet there are still loads of things that can be "improved".

    I am not saying that is wrong - good luck to those guys - but I need more than a sweeping statement, which is always "Gibson got it wrong" to justify their "improvements"......
    Last edited by majorminor; 02-24-17 at 04:07 PM.

  37. #197
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Once again for those who may have missed it:

    Nie Zweifel an einen deutschen Handwerker.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
    London, England

  38. #198
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    When it comes to top carves I let these pictures of original '59.s speak for themselves.

    They were all different and a lot of them looked like this:




    This is what Florian told me about using acetone:
    …in fact acetone is used as a solvent which solubilizes and solvates the celluloid and makes it „liquid“. It then becomes sticky and acts as it´s own „glue“ because it becomes a glue. And melts a little bit into the wood as well,



  39. #199
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall1987 View Post
    Once again for those who may have missed it:

    Nie Zweifel an einen deutschen Handwerker.
    +1

  40. #200
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Given a choice, I'd take the guitar behind door No. 2. Thanks.


    And just to clarify a thing or two about conventional wood glues:

    Hide glue and Titebond are both comprised of polymers that work by means of mechanical bonding. That is.....the glues penetrate into the first few layers of wood cells, and upon drying, form a mechanical bond that is usually stronger than the two pieces of wood being glued.

    When acetone is used to partially melt/dissolve celluloid binding to be affixed to a rosewood fingerboard, the process also results in penetration of the solvated material (celluloid binding) into the top layers (cells) of wood. That's how it works. The two pieces are certainly not bonded by electrostatic forces. So it has to be a function of mechanical bonding.
    Last edited by marshall1987; 02-24-17 at 04:52 PM.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
    London, England

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