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  1. #81
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Here´s a picture of the old fretboard.
    As you can see there was almost no glue where the fretboard was loose. Florian told me the there was only some trapped Nashville air

    We were both pretty baffled to see this on a Gibson flagship guitar.


  2. #82
    Les Paul Forum Member jbzoso2002's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Very interesting thread.

    Looking forward to see it all done.

    Jimmy

  3. #83
    Les Paul Forum Member andy k's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    weird,
    watched the vid--fretboard is attached to neck before neck is attached to body,
    yet it seems here as if the body either side of the mortice prevented the fretboard from being attached to the neck????
    very strange, and I'm sure anybody building something like this by hand would have at least made sure there was a flat surface to bond to,-- the way the fretboard is attached before the neck is installed makes it difficult to see if anything fits well-(sides and bottom of tenon, they seem to rely on the fretboard to be sitting flat on the maple top, which hides a lot of details)
    pretty shameful really on such an expensive instrument. A lot of work (and money) goes into getting it to look like its been played a lot, and yet the carcass isnt even glued solidly??
    I'm not hating on Gibson, just kind of surprised that they'd let this happen on the flagship model.
    the OP's fretboard cant have been attached to the neck in the same way the ones are done in the video--you see the part where the board is glued up and then clamped down in a press, yet on his there is a gap between the maple top and the tenon???????
    strange days.

  4. #84
    Les Paul Forum Member Pellman73's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by andy k View Post
    weird,
    watched the vid--fretboard is attached to neck before neck is attached to body,
    yet it seems here as if the body either side of the mortice prevented the fretboard from being attached to the neck????
    very strange, and I'm sure anybody building something like this by hand would have at least made sure there was a flat surface to bond to,-- the way the fretboard is attached before the neck is installed makes it difficult to see if anything fits well-(sides and bottom of tenon, they seem to rely on the fretboard to be sitting flat on the maple top, which hides a lot of details)
    pretty shameful really on such an expensive instrument. A lot of work (and money) goes into getting it to look like its been played a lot, and yet the carcass isnt even glued solidly??
    I'm not hating on Gibson, just kind of surprised that they'd let this happen on the flagship model.
    the OP's fretboard cant have been attached to the neck in the same way the ones are done in the video--you see the part where the board is glued up and then clamped down in a press, yet on his there is a gap between the maple top and the tenon???????
    strange days.
    It looks to me that if the body joint pocket is ever so slightly too small front to back that when you slide the Neck/fretboard combo in there like the dude does just after he slathers the glue on the tenon, the pocket and the cap it will HAVE To pry the fretboard off the tenon for it to fit, and then you have only the edges of the fretboard contacting the cap but no longer does it contact the neck / tenon.

    perhaps this is by design to always make sure the joint is tight?

  5. #85
    Les Paul Forum Member andy k's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Pellman73 View Post
    It looks to me that if the body joint pocket is ever so slightly too small front to back that when you slide the Neck/fretboard combo in there like the dude does just after he slathers the glue on the tenon, the pocket and the cap it will HAVE To pry the fretboard off the tenon for it to fit, and then you have only the edges of the fretboard contacting the cap but no longer does it contact the neck / tenon.

    perhaps this is by design to always make sure the joint is tight?
    c'mon.
    I mean we go to ridiculous lengths to get these things hisorically accurate.
    some of us go as far as buying a new instrument from Gibson,and then paying guys like Florian, and HM to make them even MORE accurate than the most recent offerings.
    I love the Les Paul, and am kind of horrified that this situation has arisen.

    How can it be by design-to make sure the joint is tight?? if it results in the fretboard being 'pried' off the neck???
    I've gone down the replica route to get my own 'historically' correct Les Paul, and there is no way a loose glue joint would be acceptable.
    The glue is meant to be a thin layer , the joint should be tight, and hot hide glue is meant to be the best glue for the job.
    This makeover has opened a huge can of worms, and I hope Kevin from the custom shop will chime in here--cos theres some explaining needs to be done.
    If i had recently bought a TRUE Historic, I would be seriously worried that this method of gluing in the neck could cause problems down the line, after any warantee period has expired--we all know about the neck rise problem dont we??
    In fact, i'll have to get my copy of BOTB out and refresh my memory on it too, because if this is how they are being shipped out now--I dont think theres much hope for the future.
    Its really sad that a guy has taken the bold step of having a makeover done , and on a TRUE historic, to have this come to light.
    I hope some of the real experts will chime in on this, its not a problem that will go away.
    cheers guys
    andy k

  6. #86
    Les Paul Forum Member andy k's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Sorry to the OP for further derailling this thread, i cant wait to see the results, but this latest thing has made me pretty angry really.
    I bought 2 new (to me) Gibsons around december--a 2013 SGJ, which was cheap, and is a great instrument-after i upgraded pickups and electrics--the wood was good, and it has a laminated fretboard-remember that fiasco.
    then I bought a 2015 Les Paul CM, really nice 3 peice body, thick maple top on a thinner SOLID back, carved top-but thinner overall than a Standard--think carved top junior.Maple neck, THICK solid rosewood fretboard, and Gforce tuners. It was great as it stood, but i changed the wraptail and put a good pickup in it. FANTASTIC instrument, innovative, practical, and probably the cheapest american gibson available, less than 400 english pounds. Tronical charge £150 for the G force system alone , aftermarket.
    Here we have a flagship instrument--which over here would cost me about 7K, and this is how they are fixing the fretboard to the neck??
    It takes a guy who has bought this instrument-at the price asked, and is then going to spend about half again to get it how he wants it,, which exposes the flaw.
    WTF is going on??
    In the video--we see a couple of things used to justify the price of a TRUE Historic,,the headstock overlay is planed twice to make it thinner??
    and then Henry shows us how the binding is rolled, on a fretboard attached to a neck, ?? as far as i know, a rolled binding is the result of many hours of playing--or a setup that is requested--so it shouldnt really be 'rolled' where the hands wont wrap around the neck--this is complete BULLSHIT,
    There should be no monday morning-friday afternoon guitars in the TRUE historic range, and my 2 recent purchases -at least on the outside--are great examples of mass produced-fairly priced instruments.
    Somebody should be accountable for this situation--their name is on the finishing slip, and if I owned a guitar built by the same guy-I would be demanding my money back right now.
    I love Gibson, as a name behind a great instrument--but I hate what it has become.
    TRULY HORRIFIC.
    rant over--
    look forward to the replies.
    cheers guys
    andy k.

  7. #87

    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Well said Andy k!

    Ive played some of those cm guitars too....they were really good. Surprisingly good. Almost as surprising as the attention to detail florian is putting into this rebuild....and almost as surprising again at the lack of QC the guitar got from Gibson originally.

  8. #88
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Orreman View Post
    Here´s a picture of the old fretboard.
    As you can see there was almost no glue where the fretboard was loose. Florian told me the there was only some trapped Nashville air

    We were both pretty baffled to see this on a Gibson flagship guitar.

    Orreman............what method did Florian employ to remove the fingerboard from your guitar? Did it require considerable force, or did it simply drop off? And what would you normally expect to see of any remaining glue after the fingerboard comes off? Small amounts, or big globs of hide glue?

    I'm guessing Florian used a heat blanket to melt the glue, but there are other ways to remove the fingerboard.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
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  9. #89
    Les Paul Forum Member Pellman73's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by andy k View Post
    c'mon.
    I mean we go to ridiculous lengths to get these things hisorically accurate.
    some of us go as far as buying a new instrument from Gibson,and then paying guys like Florian, and HM to make them even MORE accurate than the most recent offerings.
    I love the Les Paul, and am kind of horrified that this situation has arisen.

    How can it be by design-to make sure the joint is tight?? if it results in the fretboard being 'pried' off the neck???
    I've gone down the replica route to get my own 'historically' correct Les Paul, and there is no way a loose glue joint would be acceptable.
    The glue is meant to be a thin layer , the joint should be tight, and hot hide glue is meant to be the best glue for the job.
    This makeover has opened a huge can of worms, and I hope Kevin from the custom shop will chime in here--cos theres some explaining needs to be done.
    If i had recently bought a TRUE Historic, I would be seriously worried that this method of gluing in the neck could cause problems down the line, after any warantee period has expired--we all know about the neck rise problem dont we??
    In fact, i'll have to get my copy of BOTB out and refresh my memory on it too, because if this is how they are being shipped out now--I dont think theres much hope for the future.
    Its really sad that a guy has taken the bold step of having a makeover done , and on a TRUE historic, to have this come to light.
    I hope some of the real experts will chime in on this, its not a problem that will go away.
    cheers guys
    andy k
    I guess what I meant was in a mass production model like they have (as Shifter originally pointed out) where they have a bunch of necks and a bunch of bodies and you want the joint to be tight if you have to err on one side or the other you'd make a shade too tight rather than too loose. and too tight will mean that the thing to give a little would be the fretboard off the neck tenon.

    what really doesn't make sense to me is why not just join the neck to the body without the fretboard on, get the surface between the cap and the tenon exactly perfectly smooth and level, and then glue the fingerboard on and it will be perfect every time.

  10. #90
    Les Paul Forum Member andy k's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Pellman73 View Post
    I guess what I meant was in a mass production model like they have (as Shifter originally pointed out) where they have a bunch of necks and a bunch of bodies and you want the joint to be tight if you have to err on one side or the other you'd make a shade too tight rather than too loose. and too tight will mean that the thing to give a little would be the fretboard off the neck tenon.


    what really doesn't make sense to me is why not just join the neck to the body without the fretboard on, get the surface between the cap and the tenon exactly perfectly smooth and level, and then glue the fingerboard on and it will be perfect every time.
    THIS,exactly.
    NECK joints cant really be TOO tight, they should hold without glue.

    yet the video is showing TRUE historics being made,
    the premiums being paid for these instruments are to allow for the time and effort it takes to put a lot of dings, scratches and wear on it.
    If the fretboard comes loose later---well at least its historically accurate--NOT.
    This process has also showed us the historically correct plastic locating dowels used to help them get the fretboard straight, and the new FLATTER top carves we are all desperate for,-- unbelievable.
    The Emperor has no clothes.
    cheers guys
    andy k.

  11. #91
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Today Florian pulled the neck off the guitar!
    Guess if Gibson had done a proper job glueing it in?
    The answer will be revealed tomorrow


  12. #92
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Orreman View Post
    Today Florian pulled the neck off the guitar!
    Guess if Gibson had done a proper job glueing it in?
    The answer will be revealed tomorrow

    My guess is no based on taking past performance (comments in this thread) as a guide to the future.

  13. #93
    Les Paul Forum Member Pellman73's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Classic View Post
    My guess is no based on taking past performance (comments in this thread) as a guide to the future.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHFp8s_R1LU

    Anybody else feel like they are watching the bedroom scene from I'm gonna get you sucka?

  14. #94
    Les Paul Forum Member andy k's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Thinking about what we have so far,
    bodies and necks are cut on CNC machine, with a small tolerance, which one would hope would allow for a small amount of fine tuning.
    The wood is kiln dried to a certain amount of acceptable moisture content--there should be no real shrinkage in the time it would take Gibson to 'mate' neck and body---the neck and body should be a tight fit.
    The photo above, showed maybe a millimetre gap between the maple cap and the tenon, and therefore the fretboard, a millimetre of glue seems too much.
    I know its hot hide glue, but still, thats not good.
    The way they are fixing neck to body--with fretboard attached, how can they know its not a loose fit, with a lot of glue.
    I certainly expected better attention to 'detail' than this from the top of the range model.
    I dread to think what we will find tomorrow.
    sorry
    andy k

  15. #95
    Les Paul Forum Member 1993's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Subscribed!
    Fascinating thread indeed. I guess this makeover thing is similar to some folks as is aging process. I own a '63 Landau relic Strat and love it, but do my best not to get my Ruokangas Unicorn dinged - OTOH if I was to buy another Ruokangas it'd definitely receive aging treatment. If this makeover gets Orreman to pick up this very guitar more or just pleases his eye, then in my book it's a success. His money, his choice etc.

  16. #96
    Les Paul Forum Member andy k's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by 1993 View Post
    Subscribed!
    Fascinating thread indeed. I guess this makeover thing is similar to some folks as is aging process. I own a '63 Landau relic Strat and love it, but do my best not to get my Ruokangas Unicorn dinged - OTOH if I was to buy another Ruokangas it'd definitely receive aging treatment. If this makeover gets Orreman to pick up this very guitar more or just pleases his eye, then in my book it's a success. His money, his choice etc.
    AGREED,
    and appreciating the insights it offers.

  17. #97
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner and Moderator CDaughtry's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by andy k View Post
    Thinking about what we have so far,
    bodies and necks are cut on CNC machine, with a small tolerance, which one would hope would allow for a small amount of fine tuning.
    The wood is kiln dried to a certain amount of acceptable moisture content--there should be no real shrinkage in the time it would take Gibson to 'mate' neck and body---the neck and body should be a tight fit.
    The photo above, showed maybe a millimetre gap between the maple cap and the tenon, and therefore the fretboard, a millimetre of glue seems too much.
    I know its hot hide glue, but still, thats not good.
    The way they are fixing neck to body--with fretboard attached, how can they know its not a loose fit, with a lot of glue.
    I certainly expected better attention to 'detail' than this from the top of the range model.
    I dread to think what we will find tomorrow.
    sorry
    andy k
    Can you imagine what those horrid hand built things from back in 1959 would look like if you took them apart?

  18. #98
    Les Paul Forum Member andy k's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Thanks for posting Charley,
    I'm glad someone respected is watching this.
    I guess the guitars built in the 50's were built to last-60 odd years.
    and i'm not suggesting that these new ones aren't.
    I'm just calling it how i see it--
    we are expected to believe that the new ones are built to an acceptable level of stability--, and we are TOLD that they are the most historically accurate re-issues to date.
    The video, and this makeover proves that is BULL.
    and it takes a brave man to go as far as to lose all warrantee, to get that step further in his quest for accuracy, to expose that there are flaws.
    So there we go, its now just a name, and another brand.
    The ageing thing, is another thread--and the work Murphy began, and perfected deserves all the credit --works of art.
    but I personally think its gone too far, now we have proof that there are shortcuts being taken.
    A can of worms has been opened, and I think the silence is deafening from the people who could offer ANY explanation.
    This guitar, may be a one off--it should have a piece of paper with it, showing who did every step of the work on it, even my sub £400 imported 2015 CM came with a polaroid showing it being set up.
    Another little touch that gave me hope there was some care being taken.
    The OP, and Florian are going where few people would tread,
    somethings gone wrong--

  19. #99
    Les Paul Forum Member Pellman73's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by CDaughtry View Post
    Can you imagine what those horrid hand built things from back in 1959 would look like if you took them apart?


    im guessing you are making the point that there may have been more errors when they made the original bursts by hand and thus this is all getting super nit picky? And those errors are part of the charm and lore of those instruments? I hear you!

    however to play devils advocate here

    I think it also possible that the newer production techniques and CNC Machines (by the very nature that it's NOT by hand) makes these fundamentally different things all together (that when we are getting a 'TRUE HISTORIC'--- its really not all that truly historic.

    and maybe there was that much more attention being paid to some details (like the tenon being flush w the cap) back then that now is not important because of the way they are doing a mass production?

    That making them by hand back in the day meant that while the instruments may have all had their own differences and quirks and inconsistencies but the overall quality of the finished product was better because humans were more involved in the process?

    Honestly I have no idea! But you sir, would certainly have something valid to offer on this subject. would be curious to hear your thoughts.

  20. #100
    Les Paul Forum Member marshall1987's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by andy k View Post
    Thanks for posting Charley,
    I'm glad someone respected is watching this.
    I guess the guitars built in the 50's were built to last-60 odd years.
    and i'm not suggesting that these new ones aren't.
    I'm just calling it how i see it--
    we are expected to believe that the new ones are built to an acceptable level of stability--, and we are TOLD that they are the most historically accurate re-issues to date.
    The video, and this makeover proves that is BULL.
    and it takes a brave man to go as far as to lose all warrantee, to get that step further in his quest for accuracy, to expose that there are flaws.
    So there we go, its now just a name, and another brand.
    The ageing thing, is another thread--and the work Murphy began, and perfected deserves all the credit --works of art.
    but I personally think its gone too far, now we have proof that there are shortcuts being taken.
    A can of worms has been opened,
    and I think the silence is deafening from the people who could offer ANY explanation.
    This guitar, may be a one off--it should have a piece of paper with it, showing who did every step of the work on it, even my sub £400 imported 2015 CM came with a polaroid showing it being set up.
    Another little touch that gave me hope there was some care being taken.
    The OP, and Florian are going where few people would tread,
    somethings gone wrong
    --
    andy K..........

    "someone respected watching this". You can't be serious? So the rest of us are not "respected"?

    And "shortcuts"; "can of worms".

    You and I must be viewing something completely different cause I ain't seeing it that way. The only "flaw" I have observed thus far is the possibility the maple cap was not sanded down properly in the area of the neck pocket, resulting in a slight gap between the bottom of the outside edges of the fingerboard and maple cap. The method Gibson uses to attach and glue the completed fingerboard to the mahogany neck piece eliminates the likelihood of gaps in the completed neck piece (shown in the attached YouTube video of Gibson Custom Shop). What I saw was a pneumatic press in use to mate these two neck parts together, the entire length of the fingerboard.

    Help me understand how a small gap could result from this method of mating two pieces of wood together.

    "The OP, and Florian are going where few people would tread" haha. Sounds like you have been watching too many Star Trek re-runs.

    The "devils advocate" role playing is disingenuous and borderline comical. It's past time you stop attempting to derail this very informative thread.
    Last edited by marshall1987; 02-14-17 at 05:12 PM.
    "Scan not a friend under a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass".

    Sir Frank Crisp
    Friar Park
    London, England

  21. #101
    Les Paul Forum Member andy k's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall1987 View Post
    andy K..........

    "someone respected watching this". You can't be serious? So the rest of us are not "respected"?

    And "shortcuts"; "can of worms".

    You and I must be viewing something completely different cause I ain't seeing it that way. The only "flaw" I have observed thus far is the possibility the maple cap was not sanded down properly in the area of the neck pocket, resulting in a slight gap between the bottom of the outside edges of the fingerboard and maple cap. The method Gibson uses to attach and glue the completed fingerboard to the mahogany neck piece eliminates the likelihood of gaps in the completed neck piece (shown in the attached YouTube video of Gibson Custom Shop). What I saw was a pneumatic press in use to mate these two neck parts together, the entire length of the fingerboard.

    Help me understand how a small gap could result from this method of mating two pieces of wood together.

    "The OP, and Florian are going where few people would tread" haha. Sounds like you have been watching too many Star Trek re-runs.

    The "devils advocate" role playing is disingenuous and borderline comical. It's past time you stop attempting to derail this very informative thread.
    thanks,
    i knew it was only a matter of time,
    step 1, fretboard is attached to neck-in pneumatic press,
    step 2, neck assembly is mated to body, and glued and clamped.

    unless the guy sticking the body and neck together has x-ray eyes, he cant SEE whats going on underneath.

    step 3, fretboard is removed-showing visible gap between neck tenon and level of body cap either side, ie, gap which should not be there--2 flat surfaces pressed in step 1---werent pressed enough???

    discussing these pictures, and how the situation has arisen isn't derailing the thread--we arent talking about a gap
    'between the bottom of the outside edges of the fingerboard and maple cap' are we??
    its a gap between the fretboard and the neck.

    I'm here to help, and respect all you guys, just there has been no possible explanations given--so far.

    live long and prosper

  22. #102

    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by CDaughtry View Post
    Can you imagine what those horrid hand built things from back in 1959 would look like if you took them apart?
    That's what I was thinking! That "flaw" may be more common than we realize and is probably due to the inherent tolerance gaps built into the system to mass produce guitars. These things are not instruments that one master builder pours over with a fine tooth comb and makes everything perfect. So long as the tolerance gap or "flaw" doesn't affect the tone, playability or even superficial fit and finish of the guitar, then the guitar can still be a brilliant tool to make glorious music and make the muses weep.

    I don't have a TH. I have two Historics. I haven't gotten into a TH because the cost/benefit analysis doesn't make sense for me personally, at this point. But if I had a TH I wouldn't get a groin hair in a knot worrying about a potential mm of space sinisterly lurking underneath my fretboard. If it sounds good, plays good, looks good, it's good!

    If I wanted as close to perfect as I can get, I'd get a used Historic and send it for a make over. And even then some turds are produced.

  23. #103
    Les Paul Forum Member andy k's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by RocknRollShakeUp View Post
    That's what I was thinking! That "flaw" may be more common than we realize and is probably due to the inherent tolerance gaps built into the system to mass produce guitars. These things are not instruments that one master builder pours over with a fine tooth comb and makes everything perfect. So long as the tolerance gap or "flaw" doesn't affect the tone, playability or even superficial fit and finish of the guitar, then the guitar can still be a brilliant tool to make glorious music and make the muses weep.

    I don't have a TH. I have two Historics. I haven't gotten into a TH because the cost/benefit analysis doesn't make sense for me personally, at this point. But if I had a TH I wouldn't get a groin hair in a knot worrying about a potential mm of space sinisterly lurking underneath my fretboard. If it sounds good, plays good, looks good, it's good!

    If I wanted as close to perfect as I can get, I'd get a used Historic and send it for a make over. And even then some turds are produced.
    just a point,
    they are priced and advertised as being made almost exactly this way,

    and I think I may have an explanation--
    if the plastic locating dowel was maybe a MM too long for the holes that it fits in, it would cause the press to NOT press the pieces tightly together, just maybe.

    I dont want a MM of 'nashville air' between my rosewood fretboard and my long tenon-

    so it is a flaw, plastic dowels on fretboards are only there to make things easier for the factory.

  24. #104

    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by andy k View Post
    just a point,
    they are priced and advertised as being made almost exactly this way,

    and I think I may have an explanation--
    if the plastic locating dowel was maybe a MM too long for the holes that it fits in, it would cause the press to NOT press the pieces tightly together, just maybe.

    I dont want a MM of 'nashville air' between my rosewood fretboard and my long tenon-

    so it is a flaw, plastic dowels on fretboards are only there to make things easier for the factory.
    I guess I never bought into the advertisement hype, I tend to be a very skeptical geezer

    Honestly I don't know jackshit about building guitars so I cannot make an intelligent comment regarding your hypothesis. But you may be right.

    But to make you feel better, just think of the mm of nashville air as special chambering to help the notes bloom

    Andy, you know what this reminds me of, although, it is not quite the same.. Billy Gibbon's guitar that has chambering of the body, neck and headstock!
    Last edited by RocknRollShakeUp; 02-14-17 at 11:38 PM.

  25. #105
    Les Paul Forum Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    I do know about building guitars and I know very well the exact methods used in the 50's. It is abundantly clear, Andy, that sweeping statements, declared as fact, in this thread, are instead fanciful fairy tales based upon bullshit.

    Know what it is you are spouting off about and stow the sanctimonious outrage.

    You might have a minor point about the maple deck, on this one guitar, but that is all.


    To the op, what a pretty guitar. I think a more vivid burst will pop that top and I hope you will end up with a musical soulmate.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  26. #106
    Les Paul Forum Member andy k's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    I do know about building guitars and I know very well the exact methods used in the 50's. It is abundantly clear, Andy, that sweeping statements, declared as fact, in this thread, are instead fanciful fairy tales based upon bullshit.

    Know what it is you are spouting off about and stow the sanctimonious outrage.

    You might have a minor point about the maple deck, on this one guitar, but that is all.


    To the op, what a pretty guitar. I think a more vivid burst will pop that top and I hope you will end up with a musical soulmate.
    Hey,Al,
    I'm here to learn, and am only discussing what we've learned so far.
    the pictures tell their own story-did they locate fretboards with dowels in the 50's?
    might this modern method to aid production-and-putting boards on necks before necks on bodies, have introduced a possible problem in structural stability?
    just looking for some answers, not spouting fanciful fairy tales,
    thanks for the input.
    carry on.
    cheers guys.
    andy k

  27. #107
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Hi guys!

    As promised, here´s some pictures of the neck tenon and cavity.
    Next step for Florian is the top carve. Really looking forward to see the old school dish










  28. #108
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by CDaughtry View Post
    Can you imagine what those horrid hand built things from back in 1959 would look like if you took them apart?
    Thank you for being the voice of reason .This is getting to be over kill on Gibson Custom .

  29. #109
    Les Paul Forum Member J T's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Orreman View Post
    Hi guys!

    As promised, here´s some pictures of the neck tenon and cavity.
    Next step for Florian is the top carve. Really looking forward to see the old school dish









    Very interesting photo story on your guitar.

    I like your decision to make it better.


    Looking at this picture, there is a "boxy" seam around the edge of the neck. I thought the neck was one piece. Is that a chisel carving or different pieces of wood mated together?

    The farther you go, the closer you are.

  30. #110
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    This thread was never meant to be negative towards Gibson. It was meant to show a cool transformation of a great guitar.
    Unfortunately, my guitar seems to have been built on a monday morning.
    It was really great from the beginning, but I have tried some of Florians Makeovers and they are on a totally different level.
    You can't compare factory made guitars to this kind of workmanship. If Gibson built the Guitars this way, no one could ever afford them.
    They have to cut some corners to speed up the manufacturing process and keep the cost down for the end user. I totally understand that.
    But a fretboard that´s almost loose is not ok.

    I know that many of you guys question how I can do this to a TH guitar and the answer is. Because I want to. I really want this to be the best guitar it can be.
    I never liked the finish on it. It felt really sticky and weird. Also the fretboard felt grainy and cheap. These are two of the reasons that started me thinking about a makeover.

    Please sit back and enjoy the show! I will post pictures as soon as I get them from Florian.

    Stay positive guys!

    Next up is top carve
    Last edited by Orreman; 02-15-17 at 11:51 AM.

  31. #111
    Les Paul Forum Member AA00475Bassman's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    The neck is one piece other than head stock wings.
    Ive never confused owning a bunch of high end gear with being some kind of a guitar player I'm a hack and I love guitars

  32. #112
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by AA00475Bassman View Post
    The neck is one piece other than head stock wings.
    Which is correct. It´s supposed to be like that.

  33. #113
    Les Paul Forum Member Cav's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Orreman View Post
    This thread was never meant to be negative towards Gibson. It was meant to show a cool transformation of a great guitar.
    Unfortunately, my guitar seems to have been built on a monday morning.
    It was really great from the beginning, but I have tried some of Florians Makeovers and they are on a totally different level.
    You can't compare factory made guitars with this kind of workmanship. If Gibson built the Guitars this way, no one could ever afford them.
    They have to cut some corners to speed up the manufacturing process and keep the cost down for the end user. I totally understand that.
    But a fretboard that´s almost loose is not ok.

    I know that many of you guys question how I can do this to a TH guitar and the answer is. Because I want to. I really want this to be the best guitar it can be.
    I never liked the finish on it. It felt really sticky and weird. Also the fretboard felt grainy and cheap.

    Please sit back and enjoy the show! I will post pictures as soon as I get them from Florian.

    Stay positive guys!

    Next up is top carve
    I totally agree! I really enjoy following your makeover.

  34. #114
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    I'm no expert luthier (or even a decent hack) or claim to fully know what I'm talking about sometimes, but Gibson's process of gluing the fretboard to the neck before gluing the neck to the body always struck me as kind of a 'cart before the horse sort of thing'.

    It just seems to me that you would want to ensure that the tenon is firmly seated in the pocket and the maple top and top of the tenon are sanded nice and flush with each other before gluing the fretboard onto the neck.

    From what I am seeing in these photos, I've got to wonder if down the line, the fretbord isn't going to eventually ramp up in the neck joint area.

  35. #115
    Les Paul Forum Member The Shifter's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Orreman View Post

    I know that many of you guys question how I can do this to a TH guitar and the answer is. Because I want to.
    Stay positive guys!
    DING DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner.

    Thanks for the thread. Looking forward to more pics, especially when Florian starts putting on the lacquer.

  36. #116

    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by Orreman View Post
    This thread was never meant to be negative towards Gibson. It was meant to show a cool transformation of a great guitar.
    Unfortunately, my guitar seems to have been built on a monday morning.
    It was really great from the beginning, but I have tried some of Florians Makeovers and they are on a totally different level.
    You can't compare factory made guitars to this kind of workmanship. If Gibson built the Guitars this way, no one could ever afford them.
    You are right, of course, but the problem, for me, is not how Gibson make Guitars.
    No, it is the way they market them that is causing the problem.


    Gibson is, essentially, a factory operation. The regular "USA" models are completely factory built (just like they were in the 50's!). And I think we all accept that.


    But when Gibson talk of the "Custom Shop", they want us to believe that these products are from somewhere far more special than just a factory. Even the name - Custom Shop - infers that the "shop" is a special place, where "custom" work is done. To quote Gibson themselves - "For over 20 years Gibson Custom has proudly been the torchbearer of, not only Gibson’s legacy, but also American craftsmanship and the value of human ingenuity".
    And look at the pricing - a "regular Trad T has a list price of $2299. Decide to go "Custom" and buy into that "salesspeak", and a similar looking Historic will cost me $6499- almost double, and if I buy into the sales premise completely,and go "True Historic" I'll have to put down $8599.


    Now, OK, the Historic has a certain number of "improvements" over the vanilla model - and the TH has even more of them. But are they really worth SO much more?
    Well, perhaps they would be if they were indeed what Gibson try to make out - special models FAR removed from the cheapo stuff going on next door in the main factory.


    What this makeover has shown us is that this is perhaps not the case. The lady planing headstock overlays plainly did them for all instruments, even the THs - she ran them through the planer an extra time for the expensive stuff - does that double/quadruple the manufacturing cost?


    And it certainly now looks like, in essential parts of the production process - like gluing the neck to the body, ALL the instruments get the same treatment by the same workers.
    Essentially, what the Custom Shop is doing is "polishing a turd".


    I hope you get the meaning of that - certainly used in the UK - pretty much means that if you take something inferior, and spend alot of time blinging it up, it will still,at heart, be the same inferior product.
    And next year, Gibson way well find something else they can bling up, at an even more eyewatering price.


    And is it really Gibson making them ever more real, or is it simply deliberately making the cheap ones "wrong", in order to increase the demand for the "correct ones"?


    I currently have just three Gibsons - only one cost over $2500, and I am perfectly happy with them, and 99% of anyone who ever sees them will not question for a second why I didn't spend another $6000 to get something that only I would know was "better" ....


    Quote Originally Posted by Orreman View Post
    I know that many of you guys question how I can do this to a TH guitar and the answer is. Because I want to. I really want this to be the best guitar it can be.

    Stay positive guys!

    Next up is top carve
    That's cool - your money, your decision.

    The only thing that I would find troubling is that Florian, in doing an amazing Makeover, will have removed pretty much all the extra bling that the Custom Shop added to make it TH spec. Underneath is just a regular Gibson USA instrument!

  37. #117
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    So to follow your thinking , then you are almost doubling the price for said instrument ? How does that make sense in the essence that you are having this rebuilt a second time at the markup ? for something already built ?

  38. #118
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by El Gringo View Post
    So to follow your thinking , then you are almost doubling the price for said instrument ? How does that make sense in the essence that you are having this rebuilt a second time at the markup ? for something already built ?
    I don´t really care about the cost. I bought this guitar at a silly good price. I work in the music business here in Sweden and have great contacts.
    It will not be the same guitar anymore. It will be something much better and what I want a high end Les Paul to be.

  39. #119
    Les Paul Forum Member andy k's Avatar
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Thank you, majorminor for your well worded post,
    I think you get the point I was trying to make,
    I'm amazed at the lengths we all go to get where we want.
    Gibson is just trying to keep up with our desires, but always seems to make a mess of it--as a company.
    We are willing to pay the price, if it gets us closer to the instrument we all want,
    and now its got to the point, where they can't get there.
    They have a custom shop, that creates fantastic works of art, but there is still the mass produced element.
    They have been increasing prices--with each new development, and now they are asking the same price for a custom shop instrument as a real vintage item,
    I'm talking about custom shop juniors here,
    So , when we have an opportunity to examine whats going on , with the OPs brave quest, we should at least look at where we stand.
    I'll repeat it, I'm not bashing Gibson, I'm not trying to upset the 'experts', I LOVE the LES PAUL, and am just expressing my feelings that maybe we are being too blinded sometimes by the hype,
    We now have pickup rings , by Gibson, at a molecular level, but we are still getting basic construction WRONG.
    Al called me out, as an expert, with experience of 50's Gibsons, and I sincerely respect all the experts here, I may not own any real 50's stuff, but I do own a few re-issues, replicas and copies--and I also have a library of books about all the stuff that helps me get better as a guitarist, so I think I do have a say.
    Its not rocket science, its wire and wood, and I think nothing these days is too precious to call out if its BS.
    peace
    andy k

    PS, I cant wait to see the results, Florians work never disappoints.

  40. #120
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    Re: True Historic ´59 Bavarian Makeover

    Quote Originally Posted by J T View Post
    Very interesting photo story on your guitar.

    I like your decision to make it better.


    Looking at this picture, there is a "boxy" seam around the edge of the neck. I thought the neck was one piece. Is that a chisel carving or different pieces of wood mated together?

    Its all the same piece. Looks a bit weird after being glued in.

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