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Lacquer cracking on Les Pauls

moucon

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Nov 22, 2015
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2
Just so you know I am definitely not anti Gibson ....

Yup - well this is what the 'market' has been screaming for/at Gibson for years - and be careful what you wish for. "Thinner thinner thinner thinner.... Nitro nitro nitro...." Most of the people screaming this stuff have heard or read pseudo-science that "thinner finishes" equal " more 'tone' " whatever that means. And there's some romantic throw-back advantage to a finish that has been improved upon 1000 times over the past 50 years. So now... combine razor-thin fluid finishes with less-than-ideal lumber (the kind of old-growth wood available in 1950s and earlier is long-gone) and you're going to get very unpredictable finishes. 6 months doesn't surprise me at all... not *at all*. I'm surprised you didn't notice changes much sooner in fact.

Now a couple words of good news for you... 1) LIke others have mentioned, these cracky/finicky 'road worn' relic'd finishes are what everyone wants - so it's not going to reduce the value of your guitars at all IMO. Advertise them "beautiful natural relic'd patina..." or similar and you'll get hoards of buyers. 2) It's not that big a deal to re-spray the clear coats on these instruments. Since there isn't much finish on them to begin with, a good shop can mux all the cracking together with a combo of sanding/solvents and then re-spray more nitro... doing the mechanical buffing/etc. It'll cost you a cpl hundred bucks for each guitar but the results might be worth it to you to start over with no checking. Unfortunately - doing *that* might in fact reduce the resale value because you've altered the guitar. I don't know - the market is very fickle. The sad thing is that if there was not this ridiculous rush to outdated finishes, Gibson could use clear finishes that would never crack or check (unless you did the -20 degree thing) and would look as good as new 20 yrs from now. I'm talking about modern polyester and urethane finishes which, IMO do not impact "tone" of a solidbody guitar *one iota*. But try to sell that to the guitar-voodoo masses... good luck with that.

JLS
 

moucon

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Nov 22, 2015
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2
Have they cut down on the plasticizer?
There is no "plasticizer" per se in nitro-cellulose lacquer, so.. no. Components like plasticizers are what you find in *modern* polyester and polyurethane (plastic) finishes. You can add components to nitro lacquer that will delay or accelerate drying...flatteners...hardeners....accelerators...retarders.... but nitrocellulose lacquer is the oldest and simplest of the class of finishes known as 'lacquers" dating back to the 1800s. It's essentially liquid celluloid and is similarly as unstable as early photographic film, celluloid inlays, pickguards, and etc. Honestly - for any reason except historic accuracy, I can't think of a *worse* finish to put on an electric guitar if you're looking for stability and durability.

But because everyone has bought into the psuedo-science that somehow putting next to nothing on the wood will make the "tone" of the guitar better because the wood can "breathe" and other nonsense -- you're going to have very unpredictable, uncontrollable results.

Also look at the rash of "orange peel" Gibson has been fighting the past couple of years. There's no way around that either unless you build up more finish so it can be correctly leveled and buffed out. But that's impossible with micro-thin nitro lacquer - there's almost nothing there - so you get orange peel, cracks, checks... etc.
 

paul kossoff

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Sep 1, 2003
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67
There is no "plasticizer" per se in nitro-cellulose lacquer, so.. no. Components like plasticizers are what you find in *modern* polyester and polyurethane (plastic) finishes. You can add components to nitro lacquer that will delay or accelerate drying...flatteners...hardeners....accelerators...retarders.... but nitrocellulose lacquer is the oldest and simplest of the class of finishes known as 'lacquers" dating back to the 1800s. It's essentially liquid celluloid and is similarly as unstable as early photographic film, celluloid inlays, pickguards, and etc. Honestly - for any reason except historic accuracy, I can't think of a *worse* finish to put on an electric guitar if you're looking for stability and durability.

But because everyone has bought into the psuedo-science that somehow putting next to nothing on the wood will make the "tone" of the guitar better because the wood can "breathe" and other nonsense -- you're going to have very unpredictable, uncontrollable results.

Also look at the rash of "orange peel" Gibson has been fighting the past couple of years. There's no way around that either unless you build up more finish so it can be correctly leveled and buffed out. But that's impossible with micro-thin nitro lacquer - there's almost nothing there - so you get orange peel, cracks, checks... etc.
Very good ponts made ..I Have to agree with everything you said ..on both replys.
 

tokairic

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Nov 17, 2015
Messages
66
There are some really good comments being made here by rational people regarding finishes. Gibson and the enthusiasts of 'traditional' finishes will soon have to confront 21st Century reality.
Within the next couple of years (probably sooner) both nitrocellulose and spirit based polyester coatings will be illegal to use on any products, and the sale of such coatings will be forbidden. Thank the 'geen lobby' for that one. So Gibson won't be able to use nitro or even spirit polyester on their guitars.
Forward looking US guitar companies have been preparing for this for a long time, not harking back to the past. Taylor are using micro thin UV poly on their guitars without any issue regarding tone, and without affecting the saleability, value or quality. The coating is hard, thin, moves with the wood on an acoustic top and is quicker to apply in a factory situation, therefore cheaper (once the equipment is bought). PRS have for a long time now publicised their hard and thin V2 finish (which I suspect is UV poly but i don't know for sure).

Gibson must surely be developing a similar finish in preparation for the day nitro is outlawed (very soon). The 'traditionalists' will have to accept it, and no doubt Gibson is working on a marketing system to persuade them that this is in fact acceptable. But after years of insisting on nitro both Gibson and the traditionalists are going to find it hard to deal with.

Just hope they don't fall into the trap of using water based finishes a in my opinion they are seriously inferior to the UV poly. I know the motor industry now use water basted but I have never seen it satisfactorily used on wood. Anyone know any different?
 

K701

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Apr 10, 2015
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466
Even if there was a US wide ban on the applying of nitro finishes, Gibson would likely ship bodies to somewhere like Mexico to be sprayed and then shipped back again for assembly. Historic owners are not going to accept Polyurethane 59 reissues. Whether or not the USA production line would be affected- they would probably wait and see how the new finishes went down.

Gibson and high price lawers would probably successfully be able to win a case for continuing to spray nitro under a 'Grandfather Clause'.
 
Last edited:

rockabilly69

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Jul 29, 2001
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2,872
Even if there was a US wide ban on the applying of nitro finishes, Gibson would likely ship bodies to somewhere like Mexico to be sprayed and then shipped back again for assembly. Historic owners are not going to accept Polyurethane 59 reissues. Whether or not the USA production line would be affected- they would probably wait and see how the new finishes went down.

Gibson and high price lawers would probably successfully be able to win a case for continuing to spray nitro under a 'Grandfather Clause'.
Just buy a used one! Problem solved!!!
 

B Ingram

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Jan 3, 2016
Messages
730
... I found loads of cracks in the lacquer on the back of the headstocks on both my 2015 Les Pauls (Less Plus and Standard). There is also a large area of 'sinkage' following the grain, wider than the pickups and the full length of the body on the Less Plus. ...

Got photos of the finish problems on your guitars? A lot of talk back & forth, but nobody knows what issues you're encountering or their severity. Maybe it's normal, maybe not.
 

renderit

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Jan 19, 2009
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10,951
I'm getting a lot of shrinkage and grain. I thought it was just the aging process...
 

B Ingram

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Jan 3, 2016
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... i think Gibson instead of changing the tuners ...weight releif ...push button boosters etc etc etc ..would be far better to keep the design of the guitar as is , but offer an alternative finish like Polyester ...

Offering more than one finish type in a single production environment is an enormous PITA for a manufacturer. You need completely separate equipment for each. And since the curing time is different, some finishes would require the guitars go right to the next step, while others wait. Etc, etc.

Polyester can be good; I've got a 21 year old Taylor which sounds great (with a 6-mil UV cured polyester finish), but some models now have a 3.5-mil finish. Those guitars do sound noticeably richer, immediately.
 

jimmi

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Oct 8, 2012
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2,077
Not cracks....avert your eyes :dang:peace2

8458673549_b9f02743c2_c.jpg
 

Zentar

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Oct 1, 2011
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You called one time. Try a second call. Don't tell them you called before. Have pics ready if they request. This may take a little persistence. Try a third call. Try just email with pics. You gotta figure that they deal with petty complaints from obsessives which ruin your chances of getting help with a legitimate finish issue.

Try not to let this deter you from playing it now. I know that aint easy to do. You may get this resolved. Ya never know.
 

Monroe

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Mar 11, 2008
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1,139
Appearance is actually listed in European Consumer Law as a reasonable defect to be covered under guarantees. Gibson are a law unto themselves and decide it isn't.

Is the OP in Europe???
 

tokairic

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Nov 17, 2015
Messages
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Even if there was a US wide ban on the applying of nitro finishes, Gibson would likely ship bodies to somewhere like Mexico to be sprayed and then shipped back again for assembly. Historic owners are not going to accept Polyurethane 59 reissues. Whether or not the USA production line would be affected- they would probably wait and see how the new finishes went down.

Gibson and high price lawers would probably successfully be able to win a case for continuing to spray nitro under a 'Grandfather Clause'.

Gibson have tried that sort of thing before - hence the raid by the Feds over alleged illegal wood supplies . I'm not sure they would risk that happening again.......and as for the high priced lawyers, how much did it cost Gibson to lose against PRS over the single cut guitars? Only the lawyers won that time, they would be laughing all the way to the bank - whether they won the case or not.
 

tokairic

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Nov 17, 2015
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Not cracks....avert your eyes :dang:peace2

8458673549_b9f02743c2_c.jpg

I have seen this before -I think it was porous nitro finish allowing sweat to corrode the copper in the gold paint. How old is the guitar? If the case belongs to the guitar I would guess its pretty old. The ageing would possibly be acceptable in that case. but the cracking issue is in just a few short months.
 

K701

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Gibson have tried that sort of thing before - hence the raid by the Feds over alleged illegal wood supplies . I'm not sure they would risk that happening again.......and as for the high priced lawyers, how much did it cost Gibson to lose against PRS over the single cut guitars? Only the lawyers won that time, they would be laughing all the way to the bank - whether they won the case or not.

What sort of thing? What has having guitars sprayed in a different country got to do with previous alleged illegal wood supplies?

And what has a copyright lawsuit with PRS got to do grandfather clauses and air regulations?

So by your rationale all Gibson lawsuits are one and the same and they will never win any because they once lost to PRS?
 

J T

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Oct 20, 2005
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10,501
The photo of the Goldtop is Exactly my problem. Glad I'm not the only one, I suspect there are many more out there, thinking theirs is the only one and they've just had 'bad luck' with this one. .


Why is this a problem OR bad luck? LOTS of people actually try to do that with more or less successful attempts by freezing/heating/razoring/paying lots o'bucks, etc. Like the esteemed Big AL suggests, Just sit back and enjoy it. You are getting it for free.:eek:la
 

J T

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Oct 20, 2005
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...but offer an alternative finish like Polyester ..for people who "DONT" like there guitars checking but prefer them to remain looking New for many many years.


ewww really? You mean kind of like that three inch layer of goop what they pour all over tables and bars?

:hmm

gosh:##
 

Tarcisioo

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Oct 5, 2014
Messages
385
Why are you saying that checking is a sign of age? With a proper cured nitro, 1 day is enough to achieve finish checking! A guitar doesn't need to be 10 years old to check, only one night!


Other thing: for what I know, the thinner the nitro is, less it will check. That's why goldtops checking is more pronounced than bursts. Goldtops have a much thicker finish
 
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