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Straight necks = better?

renderit

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Jan 19, 2009
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10,951
One from an automotive store or Wallsmart is fine. It is a guide, not a bible. If you find you want more relief use a larger leaf, what do you care if it is .010, .020 or .040? It is the relief YOU want. By the way, as soon as the rust starts on it it is no longer anything other than a guide anyway. Do you throw it out then? I don't...

I would also recommend:

1) accurate notched straight edge to miss the frets to get the fingerboard straight

2) accurate flat edge to check fret relief after checking above (particularly if you are thinking about ANY filing!)

Stewed Mac has both.

 

P.Walker

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Apr 17, 2007
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In most parameters of guitar setup, many things are debatable, such as string gauge, action, pickup height, fret size, etc.

What is not debatable
- level frets (or level playing surface)
- a properly cut nut that is no more than a micro sliver higher than the first fret- ideally "zero" fret height.
- less relief ceteris peribus, gives more next fret clearance, which means less buzzing
- less relief also gives vintage radius guitars more room before they eventually fret out as they bend strings (again, ceteris paribus)
- less relief also provides for more accurate intonation all across the board
- strings a mile off the board so that you can "bend and dig in" properly is just poor technique; one does not need to ram the finger *underneath* the adjacent string to get proper leverage- that is more about how much the fingertip is in contact with the friction of the board (thus an issue of fret height).

Of course, some will argue relief is debatable, but with the above in mind, the closer those first two parameters are to "ideal," one will quickly realize that he/she doesn't need as much relief.

And don't give me the bottleneck slide excuse- if your technique is so poor that you have to have the strings suspended a mile off the surface and thus limit the guitar for all else, besides a poorly intonated wreck, then it's no fault of the tool.

Another, contrary to popular opinion, SRV didn't run is #1 with huge relief- above average action maybe, but his specs (as corroborated by Erlewine) of 0.010-0.012" is not *that* outrageous and in fact probably much less than many of the guitars on the walls, or even here for that matter I'd wager.

But in all honesty, even 0.010" relief is too much for a well set-up guitar.

There's a reason why many many pros almost go dead straight and even those who do employ some relief ala SRV, never went beyond manufacturer recommendations (which btw, is just a guideline).

I consistently see many guitars untended to, that have way over 0.020" relief, the owner claiming it was set-up, and then brags about the "low neck" angle because the abr-1 rides low next to the tailpiece. A basic geometry lesson is in order perhaps- obviously with that much curvature the abr-1 will have to come down and the owner will mistake it for a low neck angle (which btw, is actually one of the most consistent parameters from the factory, again contrary to popular opinion).

With any used guitar, the first thing I do is check how level the frets are, make adjustments, then go on to the nut, then get the neck as dead straight as possible (for some weird green and rubber necks, this has a limit), then the string height and pickup height are optional.

It's just a guitar. Micro adjustments invisible to the cursory naked eye make big differences, but it's not really rocket science.

There's not really much that can go wrong and really nothing that cannot be fixed.
 
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GeraintGuitar

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Aug 28, 2017
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115
fuck all that shit ! :nut i just mess about with all the screws and other twisty turny bits till the fucking thing plays feels and sounds right to me
 

NYCBURST

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May 11, 2016
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The right neck relief affects the tone of a guitar BIG TIME... "Almost straight" seems to be the best in feel and tone.. Fretted at the first and at the last fret, using the G string as a straight edge, you should have it to where at the fifth fret the string is as close as possible without touching the fret, about the thickness of a piece of paper... Using the G string is more accurate as there are no winds..
 

StSpider

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Aug 24, 2002
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2,148
I've heard many times that a staighter neck gives better tone. Personally, I set my guitars with not much relief, and if the frets are done right you can get away with an almost straight neck. This is for playability most of all, but it does seem to add to the tone of the guitar.

Here's Dan Erlewine's opinion on it, and I'd trust his opinion and expertise more than mine to be honest. It's around 6:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUOB9tGy5HY
 

Black58

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Oct 28, 2005
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10,139
The strings vibrate in an eliptical pattern, so it makes sense to have some relief.
The amount needed is contingent on the particular guitar and also how hard the player plays.
Heavier string gauges can usually get by with less relief, as they are tighter and vibrate in a smaller elipse.

string_pattern.jpg


Also, with a perfectly straight neck, the string height rises in a linear fashion.
With some relief, the string height tends to level out up the neck becoming nearly parallel.

arcreliefcopy.png


I for one would not give up a considerable amount of playability for a theoretical and impossibly small increase in sustain.
YMMV

I'm from "the deep end of the pool", as well. :salude .. I run a 5/64-5.5/64 action on both of my R8s. The '97 works well with .016" relief; The '09 likes .018" better. .. My resonance and sustain comes from working with the tailpiece, as well as, the wraps on my tuners. :ganz
 

Gino753

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Jan 26, 2018
Messages
187
Sorry to resurrect an okd thread ,but im having this same situation now, in that i set both of my Gibson les pauls to factory setups,in that i had 5/64 action low E, and 3/64 action high E...as well as Gibson factory .012 to .010 relief at the 12th fret.The guitars buzzed like crazy while playing bar chords,all though playing single notes rang out clean.

I then simply changed the relief,to Dan erlwins .006 relief,and the buzzing went away 97% .....still dont understand at all.I made a post about this and other guys said they found the same to be true, anyone able to tell me if this means i have a goid fret job? Where i thought i didnt since, it makes absolutely no senseas to why adding more relief, pulling the strings Away from the neck caused more buzz??
 

renderit

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Jan 19, 2009
Messages
10,951
Sorry to resurrect an okd thread ,but im having this same situation now, in that i set both of my Gibson les pauls to factory setups,in that i had 5/64 action low E, and 3/64 action high E...as well as Gibson factory .012 to .010 relief at the 12th fret.The guitars buzzed like crazy while playing bar chords,all though playing single notes rang out clean.

I then simply changed the relief,to Dan erlwins .006 relief,and the buzzing went away 97% .....still dont understand at all.I made a post about this and other guys said they found the same to be true, anyone able to tell me if this means i have a goid fret job? Where i thought i didnt since, it makes absolutely no senseas to why adding more relief, pulling the strings Away from the neck caused more buzz??

I understand the Pleking Gibson does is done with no relief. (I wish someone from Gibson would chime in on this!)

The pictures above only show two options on the guitar neck.

In truth there are a few more.

Most common is the upper registers where it is glued to the body being a very slight "hump".

In this case the relief may actually look more like a pothole in a road.

Playing anything in the lower 2/3 will/could buzz. Upper could sitar.

Since I started paying attention to the buzzing happening with low action and some relief and starting all operations on setup with a perfectly straight neck and no relief I have found it MUCH easier to get GOOD adjustments.

So to answer your question....I think that explains it. You have a good fret job done on a straight (or FLAT) neck. If you can get to a REALLY low action now by adjusting your bridge height you have a GREAT FRET JOB.

THEN add any relief you feel you want.

Start again...
 

J.D.

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May 24, 2006
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10,030
I understand the Pleking Gibson does is done with no relief. (I wish someone from Gibson would chime in on this!).

I'm not from Gibson but have seen their Pleks and other Plek machines run. There is no requirement that the neck needs to be perfectly straight with no relief to run it on the machine.
 

renderit

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Jan 19, 2009
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10,951
I'm not from Gibson but have seen their Pleks and other Plek machines run. There is no requirement that the neck needs to be perfectly straight with no relief to run it on the machine.

No, but that does not answer the question. You can set it where you want it. Where do they set it?
 

J.D.

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May 24, 2006
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The Plek is designed to level the frets when the neck is flat (whatever the machine deems is flat, as no fretboard is perfectly true), but the operator has the ability to make manual adjustments.
 

J.D.

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May 24, 2006
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I can't recall all the details but the machine limits the fret height so the cutter doesn't chew into the fretboard, and I recall it highlighting potential issues after the initial scan/read that the operator needed to make a decision (input) on. But it's been quite awhile and although I've watched a number of guitars Plek'd I can't recall more details. Someone like Joe Glaser could though.
 

Gino753

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Jan 26, 2018
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I just fixed my 1996 Fender stevie ray vaughn stratocaster also, just now.By basically taking all the relief out of the neck also...Fender called for 4/64 action from the low E to high E, and .010 to .012 relief ,like my Gibsons.It was a buzzy mess.I basically set it for .005 tops and the guitar is playing smooth now:hmm
 

GeraintGuitar

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Aug 28, 2017
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115
Is this still going ?

1. IT DEPENDS ON THE PLAYER AND HOW YOU PLAY (THATS WHY THINGS ARE ADJUSTABLE ON A GUITAR)

2 . AS ALREADY STATED IT DEPENDS ON THE GUITAR ( THIER ALL DIFFERENT )

3 . STRING GAUGE

And thats all there is to it

Ger
 

jtees4

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Feb 26, 2010
Messages
209
In 1976 I met Rick Derringers tech at a show in NYC (wish I could remember his name). Rick was opening for Kansas. I was an infant when it came to setting up guitars back then, but I tried. Anyway...he told me....start with the neck as dead straight as possible, and then add a tiny bit of relief at a time and ONLY IF NEEDED. I have been doing that ever since and it works for me. Some guitars the neck stays dead straight and others need a bit of relief, probably because of different nut heights. I never measure anything. It's all by feel for me.
 

Dave P

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Oct 13, 2001
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I usually run the necks as flat as possible,with just a tiny bit of relief. Unless there are some funky frets or other neck weirdness, that is what I prefer.
 

Henry1122

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Jan 4, 2019
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5
I think it relies upon the guitar and what the guitar will permit, i as a rule run my neck help somewhere in the range of 006 011 and in some cases 012, again relying upon the guitar
 

P.Walker

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Apr 17, 2007
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Is this still going ?

1. IT DEPENDS ON THE PLAYER AND HOW YOU PLAY (THATS WHY THINGS ARE ADJUSTABLE ON A GUITAR)

2 . AS ALREADY STATED IT DEPENDS ON THE GUITAR ( THIER ALL DIFFERENT )

3 . STRING GAUGE

And thats all there is to it

Ger

If this overly simple approach works for OP then great, so be it. But to assume that it will and to treat discussion pointless is missing the point.

To OP, how much you choose to explore this topic is entirely up to your opinion as "that's all there is to it" is simply another man's opinion.

A slight digression but,

I find it odd how folks claim their two identical era historics (used for similar musical needs) need to be set up vastly differently because "she likes this better."

There's no need to romanticize things like unlevel frets and abnormalities in the fretboard. That's not a relief/setup parameter problem, that's a guitar/structure problem; that comes first before anything.

If you're trying to compensate for the latter by going to extreme ends with the former, then so be it, but be careful to not say it as a matter of fact, or romanticize it, in case you mislead others who are trying to learn.

For example, I could yell at the top of my lungs that a high nut action gives me best tone and manly action, but in no way that is even close to fact or a general consensus. A high nut leads to playing difficulties not to mention intonation errors that the design of the guitar does not ever compensate/account for. If you like it fine, but it's an opinion. How vehemently one argues it is irrelevant to making it more true.
 
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